| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Sunblade: This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use. In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and deals bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword. Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in short sword and bastard sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.
I have a problem understanding when it is a light or bastard sword, to be specific, can I use it in a grapple like only light weapons can be?
Also more importantly, can I wield it in two hands and gain 1.5 my strength as damage like light weapons can't?
As a GM I know you can't have cake and eat it too, but the rules seems to go both ways at the same time.
One handed weapons work in grapple in Pathfinder.
Grapple...
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
It is weighted, wielded, feels and reacts like a light weapon, that seems clear enough to me what to treat the weapon as in regards to power attack.
Actually here you can at least as far as i can tell nothing would stop you from doing the extra damage(I allowed in a ravenloft game) and you can definatly use it in a grapple even if you can't two-hand for some reason.
My reasoning is that you can use it as either meaning you can do whats most advantageous at the time.
If you're proficient with a shortsword then you can treat it as a shortsword if it's advantageous to do so.
If you're proficient with a bastardsword then you can treat it as a bastardsword if it's advantageous to do so.
If you're proficient with both, you can have your cake and eat it too.
So I'd say it can be used in a grapple as a light weapon if you're proficient with shortsword or used in a grapple as a one-handed weapon if you have exotic proficiency [bastardsword].
And it can be used two handed for 1.5x damage if you have the means to do so with a bastardsword. (Which only requires martial proficiency, since bastardsword must be wielded two-handed without exotic proficiency [bastardsword].)
God i just realized that a Medium character can weild a Huge Sunblade as a Two-hander for 3d8 damage.
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Note to self make sure all sunblades are medium size when making up treasure hordes and never tell players about this thread.
so Frankthedm : you say only 1 times strength, even when holding it in 2 hands.
Talonhawke + Wolf Munroe: I get 1.5 strength when two-hand wielding it
@Avenger, I try to have a fighter focused on short swords, and the sun blade alone would give me quite a lot of options. But thanks for the info.
So if rules are a democracy, it's 1.5 :)
Also, my character is not proficient with the bastardsword, but I assume that because I can wield a bastard-sword in 2 hands (I'm a fighter) I can get the 1..
and thanks for the grappling rules information, remembered it wrong, that's clear now.
If you're proficient with a shortsword then you can treat it as a shortsword if it's advantageous to do so.
If you're proficient with a bastardsword then you can treat it as a bastardsword if it's advantageous to do so.
If you're proficient with both, you can have your cake and eat it too.
"Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade."
This means if you are proficient with a short sword, but not a bastard sword, you're still proficient with a sun blade.
If, somehow, you were proficient with a bastard sword, but not a short sword, you would still be proficient with a sun blade.
@Grick, you're right, but what is your answer to the initial problem? do I get a bonus using it in 2 hands?
I'm more and more convinced that this is the case, as the "light" thing doesn't help a bit.
With respect to weapon size:
Sun Blade: "However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use."
weapon categories: "its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed)"
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: "This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder)"
The designation of light, one-handed, or two-handed, is covered under "weight and ease of use" which means the sun blade is a light weapon.
Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage.
Power Attack does not grant the +50% bonus damage to light weapons.
The counter argument is the line "This sword is the size of a bastard sword."
That line does not specify if it means size category (which is light/1h/2h) or its size as an object (a medium bastard sword is a small object).
Since the line does not specify, and the effort section of the sun blade description would counter this, I think the reasonable interpretation is the first argument above.
this makes me a sad panda, now we're 2 vs 2 for either possibility.
another argument for extra damage is "and deals bastard sword damage".
The most specific rule wins, we got ease of use --> light --> only normal Str to damage, 3 steps.
And we got bastard sword damge --> 1h --> 1.5 Strength. 3 steps, but it got damage already in it from the beginning.
I would be glad for further arguments or if possible even an official definite answer, but I won't insist, I'm fine with GM fiat but always curious if I got a rule wrong.
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This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use. In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and deals bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword. Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in short sword and bastard sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.
you get your cake and get to eat it to.
Don't worry too much about it, Power Attack isn't as bad as it was in 3.5, so letting it have the 1.5 PA damage bonus shouldn't rock the boat too badly.
The Sunblade is a special magic item that is a bastard sword but also gives some benefits of using a short sword. I think it unlikely that there would be any instances where wielding a regular bastard sword would be BETTER than wielding a sunblade.
@MyTThor, the way I read it it is a short sword that gives some of the benefits of a bastard swords, but none of its drawbacks. The problem I have is that it doesn't say about drawbacks from still being a short sword.
@Frankthedm, it's still a bunch, but yes, I don't worry too much and accept whatever the GM tells me. It's not a problem I'm facing at the moment but one I discovered now for future use.
@Name Violation
you've got no reasoning other than to repeat the definition, but I like how your conclusion is forumlated :)
Till now, Grick is the most rules-savvy it seems, but I'm not convinced.
Near as I can tell it's the Schrodinger's weapon, it's both a 1-handed weapon and a light weapon, meaning you can two-hand it for 1.5xstr damage, weapon finesse it, and power attack with it for 1.5xdamage. You can also two-weapon fight with it, while only taking a -2hit.
I would say that "but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword" means that mechanically, it's a short sword that does 1d10 damage. So whatever you could do with shortswords you can do, and whatever you can't, you can't.
I would say that "but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword" means that mechanically, it's a short sword that does 1d10 damage. So whatever you could do with shortswords you can do, and whatever you can't, you can't.
I'd say that's not true just because it's a frigging 4 foot long sword and therefore not realistic to fight with as a piercing weapon no matter how light it is. A Sun Blade is not a light weapon. It is treated as one with regard to weight and ease of use, but it is not one. Every other non-light weapon that cannot be used for 1 1/2 str dmg 2 handed has that specifically in its description.
bastard swords are 1 handed exotic, 2 handed martial.
They're just one-handed. Check Table: Weapons. Like all one-handed weapons, they can be used with two hands for 1.5xStr and bonus Power Attack damage.
A Sun Blade is not a light weapon. It is treated as one with regard to weight and ease of use, but it is not one.
So what you're saying is "encumberance" and "effort" do not correlate to "weight" and "ease of use" ?
bastard swords are 1 handed exotic, 2 handed martial.They're just one-handed. Check Table: Weapons. Like all one-handed weapons, they can be used with two hands for 1.5xStr and bonus Power Attack damage.
Unless otherwise stated. Which I think the rapier does state otherwise.
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Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
is the line i am referring to
so if it is treated as the most beneficial sword (short or bastard) at any given time, then being a 2 handed martial weapon, and adding 1.5 str and power attack -1/+3 benefits when weilded with 2 hands.
but if something happens it can also be a light weapon if the situation arises
A Sun Blade is not a light weapon. It is treated as one with regard to weight and ease of use, but it is not one.So what you're saying is "encumberance" and "effort" do not correlate to "weight" and "ease of use" ?
Of course they do, but weight and encumbrance are game mechanic terms, and neither determines whether a weapon can be used 2hd for 1.5 str bonus. Ease of use and effort are fluff terms, with no game mechanic tied to them. You can make connections based on fluff text from other game mechanics, but I think the most apt stuff is above quote by Name Vio
"deals bastard sword damage"
bastard sword damage is 1d10 + str bonus, +1.5 str bonus when wielded 2 handed.
All this is just my opinion, and it's partially based on cool factor. Why would a (pretty awesome) magical bastard sword not give you all the benefits of a mundane bastard sword? I don't think the developers probably thought about it, because as was stated above, the coolest thing about the sun blade is being able to wield it in offhand twf. I think it's a judgement call by a DM, but I don't see why one wouldn't allow it.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
is the line i am referring to
so if it is treated as the most beneficial sword (short or bastard) at any given time, then being a 2 handed martial weapon, and adding 1.5 str and power attack -1/+3 benefits when weilded with 2 hands.
but if something happens it can also be a light weapon if the situation arises
I'm pretty sure there's no difference between a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands and a two handed weapon, except for the ability to revert back to wielding it with one hand. The ability to use it two handed is nothing special. It doesn't suddenly become a two-handed weapon. All that bolded line means is that it changes from being (exotic) to being (martial OR exotic) when it's being wielded two-handed. Replace "martial" with "bludgeoning" and the rule still makes perfect sense - when you choose to wield it with both hands, you do S or B, instead of just S.
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I'm pretty sure there's no difference between a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands and a two handed weapon, except for the ability to revert back to wielding it with one hand. The ability to use it two handed is nothing special.Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
is the line i am referring to
so if it is treated as the most beneficial sword (short or bastard) at any given time, then being a 2 handed martial weapon, and adding 1.5 str and power attack -1/+3 benefits when weilded with 2 hands.
but if something happens it can also be a light weapon if the situation arises
THEN YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT A GOLFER
there are plenty of rules arguments that hinge on the difference between one handed using 2 hands and 2 handed.
there are plenty of rules arguments that hinge on the difference between one handed using 2 hands and 2 handed.
An appropriately sized bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon. You can use it two-handed, but that does not make it a two-handed weapon.
"A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
That does not say you can use it AS a two-handed weapon, only that you can use it two-handed. It's still a one-handed weapon that you use with both hands.
A character with Martial weapon proficiency but not exotic weapon proficiency can wield a bastard sword in one hand, taking non-proficiency penalties. He could not do this if it was a two-handed weapon.
Accordingly, an appropriately sized sun blade is always a one-handed or light weapon, depending on interpretation of the rules, but there is no reasonable rule interpretation that causes it to be a two-handed weapon.
I'm pretty sure there's no difference between a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands and a two handed weapon, except for the ability to revert back to wielding it with one hand. The ability to use it two handed is nothing special.Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
is the line i am referring to
so if it is treated as the most beneficial sword (short or bastard) at any given time, then being a 2 handed martial weapon, and adding 1.5 str and power attack -1/+3 benefits when weilded with 2 hands.
but if something happens it can also be a light weapon if the situation arises
THEN YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT A GOLFER
there are plenty of rules arguments that hinge on the difference between one handed using 2 hands and 2 handed.
Are there? The only ones I know of involve the bastard sword and the lance. The bastard sword isn't actually a problem, but the lance is. But that's specifically a two-handed weapon which says it can be wielded in one hand under certain circumstances. If there's any actual difference between a one-handed weapon wielded two handed and a two handed weapon, please cite specifics rather than vague generalities.
two-handed as a martial weapon
means when you use 2 hands it is a 2 handed martial weapon, like a great sword, scythe or any other 2 handed martial weapon.
Just for the sake of argument: Assuming that it does count as a two-handed weapon, what benefit do you gain from that, compared to it being a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands? Please be specific.
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Just for the sake of argument: Assuming that it does count as a two-handed weapon, what benefit do you gain from that, compared to it being a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands? Please be specific.two-handed as a martial weapon
means when you use 2 hands it is a 2 handed martial weapon, like a great sword, scythe or any other 2 handed martial weapon.
well the argument was made upthread that its always a light weapon and not eligible for 1 1/2 str
ABILITY TO USE IT WITHOUT TAKING A -4 NON-PROFICIENCY PENALTY (IN THE CASE OF A REGULAR BASTARD SWORD)
A 1 handed exotic weapon weilded in 2 hands with-out profstill incures a -4 to hit. but if you have martial prof you dont get it for 2 handing a b-sword
most weapons would still require you to suck the -4 without EWP
It's still a one-handed weapon. It's just a one-handed weapon that you're not proficient with unless you're choosing to use it two-handed.
Even if you're only proficient with a bastard sword as a martial weapon, you could still (technically) use it in a grapple without penalty, because the grapple rules just say it has to be a one handed weapon, not one that you can wield in one hand. By extension, a Large longsword could be used in a grapple by a medium character, but a Small greatsword couldn't. Probably not what was intended, though, and in my games I'd apply the non-proficiency penalty to any attempt to use a bastard sword in a grapple without the exotic prof.
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The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
medium creature using a large longsword makes it a 2 handed weapon.
we could go back and forth with this all day
two-handed as a martial weapon
means when you use 2 hands it is a 2 handed martial weapon, like a great sword, scythe or any other 2 handed martial weapon.
What the rules say: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
What you think the rules say: "A character can use a bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon."
They are not the same. The weapon does not change, only the proficiency changes.
Cleric of Irori: Not proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. Takes -4 penalty no matter what.
Cleric of Ragathiel: Proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. No penalty.
Fighter guy: Not proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. Takes a -4 penalty if used in one hand.
See how every one of them can use it in one hand? And how, if it was a two-handed weapon, they couldn't? That's because an appropriately sized bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon, no matter who uses it or how proficient they are.
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two-handed as a martial weapon
means when you use 2 hands it is a 2 handed martial weapon, like a great sword, scythe or any other 2 handed martial weapon.
What the rules say: "A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon."
What you think the rules say: "A character can use a bastard sword as a two-handed martial weapon."
They are not the same. The weapon does not change, only the proficiency changes.
Cleric of Irori: Not proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. Takes -4 penalty no matter what.
Cleric of Ragathiel: Proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. No penalty.
Fighter guy: Not proficient. Can use a bastard sword in one hand, or two hands. Takes a -4 penalty if used in one hand.
See how every one of them can use it in one hand? And how, if it was a two-handed weapon, they couldn't? That's because an appropriately sized bastard sword is always a one-handed weapon, no matter who uses it or how proficient they are.
i will ponder over this for a while
