A human fighter could technically gain 39 extra skill points over 20 levels. Plenty of skill points to spend.Uhmmm... no archetypes, the fighter has an archetype that increases skill points but the barbarian doesn't have anything similar to keep the playing ground level. And no multiclassing, that would be about the class yu multiclass into, not about the fighter. Feats and rage powers can be from any book of the main line (APG, UM, UC),unless Bob decides for Core only. Like I said, by the laws of dueling, I threw the gauntlet, he can decide the weapons and grounds.
And by relevant I mean anything that he can do well enough to be used out of battle. Skils most likely, but if can get something from his feats, it's cool. Paladins have healing andspells, Rangers have several bonuses to skills and stuff like camouflge and hide in plain sight, Rogues can get all sorts of interesting abilities from thei talents... Barbarians and Fighters are the only two who, at first glance, have no out of combat utility, so I say we see if one fares better than the other.
And a human Barbarian with the same int score could have how many skill points? Please enlighten me.
Wait, do you mean skill bonuses? Cause that is what feats give, not points. And he can spend all is non-bonus feats on skills, whatever. That only means he won't be able to fight as well as the barbarian can, even without rage.So when matters of the arcane come up does everyone on your group try to handle it or do you let the Wizard handle it?
Actually, the barbarian I'm playing in my current campaign has enough skill points to maximise Intimidate and Perception and has enough left to cover a smattering of other skill, including a good number of ranks in Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft and Linguistics. So yeah, my barbarian does muddle in the matters of the arcane. Heck, every once in a while I roll better than the wizard and my barbarian can point out that no, sdfghf means shadow not darkness in ancient draconic and that changes the whole maning of that runic inscription.
It's fun seeing the Wizard baffled and befudded. Too bad the Fighter just doesn't have enough skill points to keep up.
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Uhmmm... no archetypes, the fighter has an archetype that increases skill points but the barbarian doesn't have anything similar to keep the playing ground level. And no multiclassing, that would be about the class yu multiclass into, not about the fighter. Feats and rage powers can be from any book of the main line (APG, UM, UC),unless Bob decides for Core only. Like I said, by the laws of dueling, I threw the gauntlet, he can decide the weapons and grounds.
And by relevant I mean anything that he can do well enough to be used out of battle. Skils most likely, but if can get something from his feats, it's cool. Paladins have healing andspells, Rangers have several bonuses to skills and stuff like camouflge and hide in plain sight, Rogues can get all sorts of interesting abilities from thei talents... Barbarians and Fighters are the only two who, at first glance, have no out of combat utility, so I say we see if one fares better than the other.
So in order to try and prove a point we limit the options of the fighter? How about I say no barbarians because there are no Rage powers that my fighter can take?
PS: Basically what you are saying is that no archtypes can be used because the fighter has an archtype that gives him something that it won't give you.
The point I'm trying to make here is that there are situations where it's obvious who handles that particular situation. You can't sit there and pick on the fighter class just because there are certain situations that makes sense for him to sit out of. Why not pick on the other classes when they have to sit out of a situation? Fighters don't handle matters of the Arcane so it makes sense for the Wizard to handle it. I don't know about you but I want the Wizard above anyone else to handle those types of matters.
The problem is, most of the classes can handle 80-95% of all situations, using the benefits of their class alone.
The Fighter is the exception, handling far fewer game themes, unless he gimps his combat contribution in order to be a skilled commoner.This isn't nitpicking. To me it's glaringly obvious.
Any class with a spell list (a class feature) automatically gets remarkably more versatility, utility and effectiveness, than a Fighter. Combat feats just don't compete.
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A human fighter could technically gain 39 extra skill points over 20 levels. Plenty of skill points to spend.Uhmmm... no archetypes, the fighter has an archetype that increases skill points but the barbarian doesn't have anything similar to keep the playing ground level. And no multiclassing, that would be about the class yu multiclass into, not about the fighter. Feats and rage powers can be from any book of the main line (APG, UM, UC),unless Bob decides for Core only. Like I said, by the laws of dueling, I threw the gauntlet, he can decide the weapons and grounds.
And by relevant I mean anything that he can do well enough to be used out of battle. Skils most likely, but if can get something from his feats, it's cool. Paladins have healing andspells, Rangers have several bonuses to skills and stuff like camouflge and hide in plain sight, Rogues can get all sorts of interesting abilities from thei talents... Barbarians and Fighters are the only two who, at first glance, have no out of combat utility, so I say we see if one fares better than the other.And a human Barbarian with the same int score could have how many skill points? Please enlighten me.
Wait, do you mean skill bonuses? Cause that is what feats give, not points. And he can spend all is non-bonus feats on skills, whatever. That only means he won't be able to fight as well as the barbarian can, even without rage.So when matters of the arcane come up does everyone on your group try to handle it or do you let the Wizard handle it?Actually, the barbarian I'm playing in my current campaign has enough skill points to maximise Intimidate and Perception and has enough left to cover a smattering of other skill, including a good number of ranks in Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft and Linguistics. So yeah, my barbarian does muddle in the matters of the arcane. Heck, every once in a while I roll better than the wizard and my barbarian can point out that no,...
Humans get 1 skill rank for as bonus each time they level and you get to either gain an additional skill rank or an extra hit point because of your favored class. Now I am aware a human anything gets this but we are talking about the fighter. The fighter doesn't have to give up on any fighting feats in order to take advantage of this.
Which means at high level almost all monsters will make their saves because there will be no items to up that INT which won't get those DC's to where you need them.
Who uses save spells, especially Good-save spells? Using a Fort spell on a giant is fail at any level... at least in my mind.
Battlefield control, buffs, utility... no save applies.
And if you MUST use a save-spell, use the ones the critter sucks at; know your creature types (that's a knowledge check, kids ;P )
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Actually, the barbarian I'm playing in my current campaign has enough skill points to maximise Intimidate and Perception and has enough left to cover a smattering of other skill, including a good number of ranks in Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft and Linguistics. So yeah, my barbarian does muddle in the matters of the arcane. Heck, every once in a while I roll better than the wizard and my barbarian can point out that no,...
Sure you roll better than the Wizard at Arcane and Spellcraft.....
That's great about the Perception rolls, you going to withhold information during an encounter when you see or hear something just to prove a point or are you going to inform the rest of the party? Free action "Hey there's something over that way". You can be the eyes for the fighter, so what?
That's great about the Perception rolls, you going to withhold information during an encounter when you see or hear something just to prove a point or are you going to inform the rest of the party? Free action "Hey there's something over that way". You can be the eyes for the fighter, so what?
...and this nails down the roles being played:
Barbarian = awesome
Fighter = sidekick
Both are monsters in combat, and out of combat the Barbarian has to shoulder some of the Fighter's weight.
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So.... Don't use save spells because there's a save. Don't use save spells vs creatures where the save spell is their best save. Use save spells that target a creatures weak saves... Thanks captain obvious. But everyone has save spells in their repertoire. This is why wizards get to dominate and magic jar things. This is why save or die exists.Which means at high level almost all monsters will make their saves because there will be no items to up that INT which won't get those DC's to where you need them.Who uses save spells, especially Good-save spells? Using a Fort spell on a giant is fail at any level... at least in my mind.
Battlefield control, buffs, utility... no save applies.
And if you MUST use a save-spell, use the ones the critter sucks at; know your creature types (that's a knowledge check, kids ;P )
This is also what makes prepared spell casters difficult because in most games you aren't going to know what creatures you are going to encounter that day. Hell, if I knew all the creatures ahead of time I would create my spell list accordingly.
This is also what makes prepared spell casters difficult because in most games you aren't going to know what creatures you are going to encounter that day. Hell, if I knew all the creatures ahead of time I would create my spell list accordingly.So.... Don't use save spells because there's a save. Don't use save spells vs creatures where the save spell is their best save. Use save spells that target a creatures weak saves... Thanks captain obvious. But everyone has save spells in their repertoire. This is why wizards get to dominate and magic jar things. This is why save or die exists.Which means at high level almost all monsters will make their saves because there will be no items to up that INT which won't get those DC's to where you need them.Who uses save spells, especially Good-save spells? Using a Fort spell on a giant is fail at any level... at least in my mind.
Battlefield control, buffs, utility... no save applies.
And if you MUST use a save-spell, use the ones the critter sucks at; know your creature types (that's a knowledge check, kids ;P )
The funny bit about all those fighters walking away from the prepared caster and his walls?
If he decided to leave slots open he can prep spells for when the fighter comes back. :D
Just one of those little rules people never read because they're too ingrained into 3.5.
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...A human fighter could technically gain 39 extra skill points over 20 levels. Plenty of skill points to spend.Uhmmm... no archetypes, the fighter has an archetype that increases skill points but the barbarian doesn't have anything similar to keep the playing ground level. And no multiclassing, that would be about the class yu multiclass into, not about the fighter. Feats and rage powers can be from any book of the main line (APG, UM, UC),unless Bob decides for Core only. Like I said, by the laws of dueling, I threw the gauntlet, he can decide the weapons and grounds.
And by relevant I mean anything that he can do well enough to be used out of battle. Skils most likely, but if can get something from his feats, it's cool. Paladins have healing andspells, Rangers have several bonuses to skills and stuff like camouflge and hide in plain sight, Rogues can get all sorts of interesting abilities from thei talents... Barbarians and Fighters are the only two who, at first glance, have no out of combat utility, so I say we see if one fares better than the other.And a human Barbarian with the same int score could have how many skill points? Please enlighten me.
Wait, do you mean skill bonuses? Cause that is what feats give, not points. And he can spend all is non-bonus feats on skills, whatever. That only means he won't be able to fight as well as the barbarian can, even without rage.So when matters of the arcane come up does everyone on your group try to handle it or do you let the Wizard handle it?Actually, the barbarian I'm playing in my current campaign has enough skill points to maximise Intimidate and Perception and has enough left to cover a smattering of other skill, including a good number of ranks in Knowledge Arcane, Spellcraft and Linguistics. So yeah, my barbarian does muddle in the matters of the arcane. Heck, every once in a while I roll better than the wizard and my barbarian
Also, the barbarian is most likely going to focus on his STR, Dex and Con scores while the fighter really needs to worry about Str, and Dex and can actually afford to spend some in INT is need be. The high AC of a fighter can make up for the lack on Con. Really depends on what type of fighter build you are going for to be honest.
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This is also what makes prepared spell casters difficult because in most games you aren't going to know what creatures you are going to encounter that day. Hell, if I knew all the creatures ahead of time I would create my spell list accordingly.So.... Don't use save spells because there's a save. Don't use save spells vs creatures where the save spell is their best save. Use save spells that target a creatures weak saves... Thanks captain obvious. But everyone has save spells in their repertoire. This is why wizards get to dominate and magic jar things. This is why save or die exists.Which means at high level almost all monsters will make their saves because there will be no items to up that INT which won't get those DC's to where you need them.Who uses save spells, especially Good-save spells? Using a Fort spell on a giant is fail at any level... at least in my mind.
Battlefield control, buffs, utility... no save applies.
And if you MUST use a save-spell, use the ones the critter sucks at; know your creature types (that's a knowledge check, kids ;P )The funny bit about all those fighters walking away from the prepared caster and his walls?
If he decided to leave slots open he can prep spells for when the fighter comes back. :D
Just one of those little rules people never read because they're too ingrained into 3.5.
Which Wall spells actually give you a roof? Also, with a grappling hook, the fighter can climb over just about any wall spell that you can't simply walk through or he could just fly over with his winged boots, or he could go around it.
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This is also what makes prepared spell casters difficult because in most games you aren't going to know what creatures you are going to encounter that day. Hell, if I knew all the creatures ahead of time I would create my spell list accordingly.So.... Don't use save spells because there's a save. Don't use save spells vs creatures where the save spell is their best save. Use save spells that target a creatures weak saves... Thanks captain obvious. But everyone has save spells in their repertoire. This is why wizards get to dominate and magic jar things. This is why save or die exists.Which means at high level almost all monsters will make their saves because there will be no items to up that INT which won't get those DC's to where you need them.Who uses save spells, especially Good-save spells? Using a Fort spell on a giant is fail at any level... at least in my mind.
Battlefield control, buffs, utility... no save applies.
And if you MUST use a save-spell, use the ones the critter sucks at; know your creature types (that's a knowledge check, kids ;P )The funny bit about all those fighters walking away from the prepared caster and his walls?
If he decided to leave slots open he can prep spells for when the fighter comes back. :D
Just one of those little rules people never read because they're too ingrained into 3.5.
Why does the fighter need to walk away again? He could sit there and wait or simply dig under the wall, shovels are a part of standard adventuring gear.
Why would the fighter need to gimp his combat skills? He's a full BAB class and gets weapon training on top of that. The fighter has the best to hit in the game before stats at involved. The fighter also gets to use the heaviest armory and generally has the highest AC. Our campaign ran last night and the raging barbarian was enlarged while raging and his AC dropped to 10. What good is a front line fighter if you get hit all the time and the cleric thinks you're a mana sink? Now the cleric has lost his action economy to keep the big guy alive when he could be using murderous command.
Let's call the standard progression stuff (feat every odd level, stat every level/4), plus 2 skill ranks per level, the "Commoner Portion" of any class.
A Fighter would, by this concept, be a commoner with extra combat feats, weapon & armor training, and bravery.
A Barbarian would be a commoner with a handful of various class abilities, +2 skill ranks per level, and Rage powers.
A Rogue would be a commoner with a small handful of class abilities, +6 skill ranks per level, and Rogue talents.
A Wizard would be a commoner with an arcane bond, wizardy spellcasting, and some bonus arcane feats.
With me so far?
All the other classes can, as they progress, allocate their "Commoner Portion" to amplifying their existing class abilities, without failing to contribute in game themes outside their focus.
The Fighter, OTOH, has to choose between allocating their "Commoner Portion" in one of three ways:
(1) - Amplify existing class abilities, neglecting the ability to contribute to non-combat situations. This creates the focused fighter who is useless out of combat.
(2) - Neglect existing class abilities, and maintaining the ability to contribute to non-combat situations. This creates the flexible fighter who is weak in combat.
(3) - Spreading it between #1 and #2 in some balance, sacrificing some of both, and being stuck in JOAT-sidekick land.
Compare this to a Barbarian who, out of the box, can allocate his Commoner Portion to battle prowess, and still have the following for non-combat:
- 2 extra skill ranks per level
- Trap Sense (anti-trap)
- Fast movement (enhanced mobility, also increases jumping results)
- Uncanny Dodge (counter-ambush)
- Damage Reduction (anti-trap, counter-ambush)
The combat-focused Barbarian doesn't even need to use any of his Commoner Portion to be what appears to be a highly capable, mobile and dynamic explorer and point-man, both in dungeon-crawls and outdoors. Plus an extra 2 ranks per level for whatever he feels like, which means he can fill yet another roll (max out Perception and Intimidate, for example; now he's a trapfinder, scout, and a limited-application party face)
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Compare a combat-built Fighter to any other combat-built martial class. They are all competitive in terms of battle prowess, but the Fighter is left with no additional role to fill in a level-competent manner.
Compare a JOAT-built Fighter to any other JOAT-built martial class. They are all competitive in terms of battle prowess, but the Fighter has fewer roles to fill in a level-competent manner.
Build a Fighter with enough JOAT to be as flexible and multi-purpose as some other combat-built martial class, and you'll see the JOAT-fighter's combat prowess fall behind.
Go outside the realm of martial classes for such comparisons and it becomes even more glaringly obvious.
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Feather token. DC 22 for both clerics AND fighters. Just as easy for both class to make them.
Slippers of Spider Climbing. DC 14 for clerics AND fighters. Easy to make.
What are goggles of see invisibility? Either way the DC is the same for both since clerics don't get see invisibility. A gem of true seeing is a DC 20 for the fighter.
The Fighter must wait until 7th level to take Craft Wondrous Item, after burning his 5th level feat for no benefit. Next, the Fighter can make a very limited subset of magic items, which are keyed to his chosen Craft skill. So he won't be able to make most of the useful items in the list of Wondrous Items, because they are too different. He can't even get good use out of Craft Magical Arms & Armor, because at best he is getting one (Arms) or the other (Armor) because he has to choose either Craft (Weapons) for most weapons, Craft (Armorsmithing) for magic armors, and Craft (Fletching) for bows and arrows. Unfortunately, you pick 1. Have fun flushing your feats down the latrine.
Meanwhile, the Cleric and Ranger? Cleric grabs it at 3rd level and hits the ground running. At 5th level he can grab Craft Arms & Armor and gear himself up, and his party. Ranger can snag Craft Wondrous at 7th and doesn't need to burn a feat for it at 5th. Both Cleric and Ranger can make ALL magic items with Spellcraft, which is a class skill by the way, that also has uses outside of crafting stuff. Which means not only is it not just a skill-point sink, but it's useful, and they have a +3 advantage over the Fighter because it comes as a class skill.
Yeah, Fighters can reeaaaally craft. Haha.
Fighters get 10 bonus feats, which means they can use their regular feats for anything they want. Even skill focus if they feel so inclined. Arguing you cannot use your fighter bonus feats for these is redundant.
Fighters get 20 feats. 10 normal, 10 bonus. Rangers get 15 feats. 10 normal, 5 bonus. Rangers also get 6 + Int modifier skills, an animal companion, 4 levels of spells that are usable in armor, the ability to ignore the prerequisites on their bonus feats, bonuses to skills, a better skill list, better saving throws, the ability to easily craft magic items, and that's not even counting favored enemies, terrain, or anything situational like that. The Ranger is clearly winning here. Especially if the Fighter needs to burn his 5 feat advantage to be a shadow of the ranger's usefulness. Let's see, we burn 2 feats for Master Craftsman, and Craft Magic Arms & Armor, and 2 feats for Skill Focus (Perception) and Skill Focus (Craft Weapons), leaving us with 1 feat over the Ranger. Maybe we grab Lightning Reflexes, to bring our Reflex from +6 at 20th to +8, to try to get closer to the Ranger's +12.
I think I can stop now.
10 ranks in craft + skill focus craft + taking 10 + stat + class ability = 30+ skill which means you can make a lot as a fighter with CWI. There's also masterwork craft tools and not masterwork spellcraft tools for another +2. At the first chance you can, 5000gp is the cost to craft an item for +10 skill. The fighters now up to ~45+.
Which everyone else can do better.
You guys have problems building classes from what I read. A fighter could have 10 Str and would still have a higher BAB and to hit than any 3/4 with 20 str. Stop making stat dumped idiot fighters and build something more balanced.
You have problems reading the rules from what I read. Half of your argument is false, the other half is garbage.
Lots of classes that you argue are prepared casters. Now you'll have to be using up spell slots(non renewable daily abilities), to ensure you get around these obstacles. The fighter comes with everything up front and can use it an unlimited number of times a day.
Lies and slander. Fighters have a really huge limiting factor called "Hit Points" which they have no method of restoring on their own, barring natural rest or the consumption of magical items they cannot craft (even with Brew Potion, since Paizo decided to screw Fighters really hard with a recent errata). EDIT: Also, having "daily solutions" is always better than "no solutions".
Comparing classes will NOT prove much, as you're not comparing them to the nth degree where one could excel beyond the other. What happens if the cleric burned his 5th level spells on breath of life to prevent some unneeded character deaths.
Then the cleric did a good job. He prevented unneeded character deaths. Unless you mean he should have prepared Breath of Life to prevent character deaths. In which case his answer is:
The cleric takes the body and casts raise dead, followed by restoration. "Sorry Fighter, my bad. Sorry about that. I didn't expect you to die so quickly. That critical hit came out of no-where. Sorry I didn't have breath of life prepared. Maybe summoning that azata to cast blur and cure serious wounds on you, while providing support fire, lightning bolts, gust of wind to disperse that cloudkill you were in, and wind wall to stop those erinyes from turning you into a pincushion, was a bad idea. My bad dude, my bad. I'll consider preparing it tomorrow."
What happened if it was a long adventuring day and the cleric has used his resources. The fighter is still applicable and your cleric can be the grand diplomat with the door locks, traps, pits, chasm.
Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."
Fighter: "Why? I feel fine."Cleric: "Exactly. I've already burnt two heal spells, a neutralize poison, a scroll of raise dead, a restoration, used death ward on you so you could use your life-drinker without killing yourself, summoned a menagerie of celestial and fiendish beings to buff, heal, spot for you, provide support fire, crowd control your enemies, and use Inspire Courage on you, the Ranger, I, and the wizard's summoned minions. I fear that given the extent of our adventures, it would be be a great risk to go forward unprepared."
Fighter: "But I feel fine."
Cleric: "Yes, but my point that's because my summoned beings and I have been healing you this whole time, or preventing your death."
Fighter: "But I feel fine."
Ranger: "Hey guys, what's up? Man, did you see that big dragon? Boy, that breath was really hot, wasn't it?"
Fighter: "I didn't feel fine then."
Ranger: "Yeah man, don't worry about that resist energy spell. Easy go, easy come, right? Anyway, the cleric and wizard are feeling a bit drained after the forces of darkness, the big dragon, and that swarm of erinyes that attacked us. So let's you and I keep watch."
Fighter: "But I feel fine."
Ranger: "Great! I'm going to keep watch and guard them. Are you any good at keeping watch?"
Fighter: "Um..." *remembers that he dumped a crapload of ranks, skill focus, and two feats into trying to be a really good weaponsmith, so his other skills are a wee bit...lacking*, "Define keep-watch..."
Ranger: "Ah, don't worry about it. I'll keep first, second, and third watch, and then use my ring of sustenance to rest."
Fighter: "But...but...I feel fine."
While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
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While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
What point is being made by limiting certain classes? All classes should be able to use all options when doing comparisons.
What point is being made by limiting certain classes? All classes should be able to use all options when doing comparisons.While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
Throughout this thread the point/claim has been made that the other martial classes can kill(do HP damage in martial combat) things, and still contribute outside of combat. That is why I phrased it the way I did.
While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
This, THIS is the million dollar question, in my mind.
When I started adding things for the Fighter, Monk and Rogue, I then found that some of these things (or variants thereof) should also, thematically, belong to other classes, until I had this big list of new abilities. To me, the final result was...
Great Ashiel, just great.
While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
That's a good question. It's not one I'm sure we can answer. Fighter, Rogue, and Monk typically get the most guff out of the core classes, because their ability to contribute compared to other classes tends to be iffy. I think a Fighter could really use a serious skill point buff, possibly some cohorts like in previous editions, and more nice abilities that didn't require long and goofy feat chains.
My brother and I believe Rogues should probably be a d10 full BAB class as well, like a nonmagical ranger of sorts, along with some abilities that improved their skills and survivability, similar to how a Ranger has bonuses to Survival and a Bard to Knowledges. Haven't gotten around to writing up a house-rules fix for 'em yet.
But how's this for an acid test: Ranger vs Fighter. Seems pretty accurate.
Great Ashiel, just great.
Uh, thank you? ^.^
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I'm convinced he's using neutralize poison or at least bear's endurance to cheat. Unless it's not considered a poison and is more of an endurance sort of thing, in which case, I blame his Endurance class feature.
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Just gathering responses here for now. Added some notes of my own.
No magic items (not every game has the same wealth standards, so why bother arguing with them. Once we have some actual results based purely on the class we can discuss the items)
No traits. (Some GM's don't allow them, other's require specific ones. Some campaigns require a character to take from a limited selection. Therefore we can't have them)
No leadership. (Gm's handle this feat differently)
No races. (Races are often one of the things restricted and pretty much any class can take racial feats.)
No Golarian (Not every GM runs in Golarion so why should we assume that?)
No 3/4 casting or pure casting. (This isn't a caster-martial disparity it's a martial-martial disparity. Ranger/Pally casting is fine.)
Otherwise, assume all archetypes and feats but they must be cited. IF you cite the ability of an archetype I ask that you please note what ability was lost to gain that ability.
Now what we're going to do here is present a series of problems that ask for very simple yes or no and why answers to some of the more common issues that face melee/ranged fighters. Cite how to deal with them utilizing the means at your disposal being sure to cite the feats, class ability, spell, mundane item, or tactic and noting the minimum leve that it can be done. If your solution is "depends on the situation" then it's a no. I understand that a fighter cannot deal with all of these situations what I hope to prove (or be disproved) is that in comparison other martial classes can deal with them more efficiently while continuing to match him or at least compete with him at what he does best; fighting.
Can it deal with:
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Crossing Lava
Being in Lava
Killing an invisible enemy.
Killing a burrowing enemy
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Being underwater
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Magical effects on other party members.
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Break it? If you mean actually just opening it, he could if he put ranks into Disable Device. Honestly though, it's not what the fighter was designed to do so it's a non-issue.
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Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Same as before.
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Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Same as before
Should be noted that Disable Device is a cross class skill for the fighter.
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Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Climb?
Grappling hooks and rope make this easy after a point but considering armor check penalties even a strong fighter can have difficulty. It should be noted you cannot in fact climb over a wall of force. Especially one with a ceiling.
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Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Crossing Lava
Acrobatics is just a skill that needs ranks. There are also other options, like ropes and grappling hooks. Non-issue.
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Being in Lava
How long?
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Killing an invisible enemy.
You can see my build in the previous post. There are a slew of blind-fight feats and half-orcs can take scent.
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Killing a burrowing enemy
Killing a teleporting enemy.
If the enemy is leaving, then the fighter has won. Problem solved already. If the enemy is coming back, then readied actions and vital strike chain can work just fine.
The first half is basically choosing not to deal with it.
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Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
This is a contrived scenario. Fighters have some of the best attack bonuses specifically meant to deal with this.
This is a non-answer. Even at your best you still might not beat some AC's.
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Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Nimble Moves feat chain. As well as just using Acrobatics to jump over the terrain to get to the enemy.
Should be noted that Nimble moves and co. are not combat feats. Also requires Dex 15 which isn't terribly difficult.
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Being underwater
This comes up all the time in games...But yeah, he can do what everyone else would: rely on magic or racial abilities.
So he doesn't deal with it. Ultimately he could try and get by with a good swim score and a piercing weapon. However he won't be as effective since he'll have to hold his breath.
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Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Acrobatics again. Since he seems to need it so often, it's probably time to put some ranks into it.
Unfortunately it's a cross class skill. Which, to be honest makes very little sense to me.
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A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
No answer was given for this one. Unless he plans on pushing, repositioning, tripping, and dragging individuals of the mob around.
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Yup. A -4 to hit is rather trivial for a fighter. There are also feats like Catch off Guard that can help if this is a common enough problem. There are also feats for improving things like Reposition. Archetypes like the brawler and the cad.
It should be noted that the brawler does not give any bonuses on improvised weapons or gives proficiency in unarmed strikes but the original point in this answer still stands.
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Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
You can fight while tripped, so non-issue. Disarm and sunder require a back up weapon which most fighters will have. Grappling can be dealt with a variety of ways, but simply attacking with a light weapon (like an unarmed strike) or being a better grappler can often be enough.
Pretty standard answers.
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Magical effects on other party members.
Go look at the Tactician build I put out there. He can actually prevent it. A party of Unbreakable fighters wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place.
We are not making an assumption about a party of fighters only how an individual fighter would deal with the problem on others. Also, I think he was citing the Shake it Off feat that the fighter can give with Tactician which is a situational nameless bonus to saves.
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Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
So you want me to assume that I should just wander though? What about ranged attacks? What about jumping over it? What about just using your strength or CMD to deal with it?
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Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
The Unbreakable archetype does this.
Essentially this answer states that the fighter can handle being casted at. But only if he's willing to give up Weapon Training which is the ability that puts him above others in the atck/dam department
Thoughts: Honestly many of the answers could have just as easily come from a rogue. In fact the rogue would do better as some of the skills cited would have been on the skill list for them. I would like to see someone else answer these scenarios and see if they could use answers that are more fighter like. In the end most of Bob's answers can be done by anyone.
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
2-handed weapon + power attack.
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Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
As above with reach weapon.
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Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Falls back to party members with expertise in this.
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Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Climb skill, Jump spell
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Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Feather token (tree).
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Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Fall back to party members with expertise, or begins hacking at it to the best of his ability.
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Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Jump spell and ranks in Jump skill.
Acrobatics skill is what jump is now.
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Crossing Lava
Resist energy.
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Being in Lava
Resist energy and freedom of movement.
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Killing an invisible enemy.
Perception class skill, entangle, potion of see invisibility.
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Killing a burrowing enemy
Situational, possibly water walk.
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Killing a teleporting enemy.
Needs a party member to use dimensional anchor, or uses magic items or tree stride to attempt to give chase (but this is often a poor tactic).
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Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
If low-ish levels, carpet bombing alchemist fires with rapid shot, dual-wielding, and iterative attacks. If against enemies with energy resistances, use spells like spike growth to deal damage that bypasses AC altogether. If all else fails, gain as many attacks as possible and roll for 20s, or retreat.
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Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Longstrider, water walk, freedom of movement, and Woodland Stride.
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Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
As above but without Woodland Stride.
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Being underwater
As above but without Water Walk and Woodland Stride.
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Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Enough ranks and bonuses in Acrobatics to never fail the balance DC.
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A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Entangle, or spike growth which forces the mob to either stop or injure themselves (assuming a rampaging mob will probably not choose to harm themselves).
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Being left with an improvised weapon.
Power attack, and possibly oil of magic weapon and gravity blade.
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Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Problems, locked gauntlets, freedom of movement, spare weapons.
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Magical effects on other party members.
Neutralize poison, remove disease, resist energy, protection from energy, wind wall, nondetection, freedom of movement, cure spells.
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Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Freedom of movement, tree stride, jump, flying companion (such as giant bat), etc.
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Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Neutralize poison, remove disease, resist energy, protection from energy, wind wall, nondetection, freedom of movement, cure spells.
Thoughts: Many of the answers come in the form of spells. Given that a ranger is a prepared caster this means remarkably little if the ranger is given time to memorize appropriate spells. More than that, I think is that the ranger can do everything as bob suggested above with the exception of the archetype specific abilities cited.
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Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Knock it down with a 2 handed weapon.
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Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Knock it down with a 2 handed reach weapon.
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Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Differ to ally if possible.
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Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Climb or even thought it doesn't count, feather token (tree).
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Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
As above (feather token (tree)).
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Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Beat on it with Power Attack for a while or find another way.
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Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Jump, possibly via my mount (who gets a +4 bonus to Acrobatics for every 10ft faster than 30 ft he moves).
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Crossing Lava
Resist energy.
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Being in Lava
Resist energy.
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Killing an invisible enemy.
Hopefully a potion of see invisible or a bag of chalk dust.
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Killing a burrowing enemy
Delay until the critter comes up, then beat it to death.
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Killing a teleporting enemy.
Hope ally has dimensional anchor. Otherwise, try to chase 'em down with my mount (who is wearing horshoes of the zypher :P).
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Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Alchemical spamming. If immune to the damage, avoid.
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Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Mount to try and overcome movement speed issues, or rely on magic items.
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Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
As above.
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Being underwater
As above, but need method for mount to remain effective in water.
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Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Hope the few ranks, masterwork tools, and cheap magic items to help my ailing Acrobatics.
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A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Diplomacy class skill and Charisma primary stat. If unable to reason, hope that my lay on hands will hold me long enough while I use my superior to-hit modifiers to knock everyone senseless with a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage, until the crowd disperses.
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Being left with an improvised weapon.
Magic weapon, greater magic weapon, or the almighty holy sword, turning my trusty butterknife into a +5 holy butterknife! Have at thee, demons!
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Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Mount, locked gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, spare weapons (+5 holy spoon to go with the butterknife).
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Magical effects on other party members.
Ka-ching! Lesser restoration, magic weapon, greater magic weapon, bless, protection from chaos/evil, cure spells, bestow grace (this is a really broken spell), bull's strength, owl's wisdom, delay poison, eagle's splendor, remove paralysis, resist energy, dispel magic, remove blindness/deafness, prayer, remove curse, break enchantment, death ward, neutralize poison, restoration, to name some. :P
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Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Got problems here. Need magic items. The cheap horshoes of the zypher would be my first bet, with other magic items being fallbacks.
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Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Dispel magic, break enchantment, restoration and lesser restoration, remove disease, remove paralysis, fear immunity, compulsion immunity, remove blindness/deafness, death ward, neutralize poison, various mercies to remove status conditions, remove curse, and cure spells and lay on hands for HP damage.
That is, if I failed my save with my ChaMod*2 to saving throws due to Divine Grace + Bestow Grace.
Thoughts: Same as the Ranger above with some exceptions. Paladin is a bit more hindered by the environment it appears since he doesn't get the environment moving abilities of the ranger. However by these answers he handles magical effects much better.
Back to the test for the Monk.
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Try sundering it.
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Hope someone has a glaive.
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
This is not your lucky day.
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
ki jump is terrible at vertical movement for a Su ability so you're stuck climbing
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Just throw a rope with a grapnel like everyone else.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Now we're talking. This is a mere DC 40. With High Jump we can do this starting at level 5. 10 dex and just 2 paid point in acrobatics gives us +30 if we spend a ki point. Take 10 and we're over. If there's a ceiling we have to wait for Abundant Step.
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
10' we can jump on a take 10 at level 1 unless we dumped dex and refused to put a point in acrobatics. 20' we can do once we get High Jump. 30' or even 40' we can do if we spend ki.
Crossing Lava
Depends, does the GM model convection? If not we stand a good chance of ki jumping the lava. If he does we need to ask a caster for help, but resist elements is on most lists at least.
Being in Lava
Nobody should be able to survive being in lava.
Killing an invisible enemy.
It's not a great solution, but flour him and then grapple.
Killing a burrowing enemy
How about ready an action to jump if it comes up under you. Once it's at the surface it's just an enemy.
Killing a teleporting enemy.
run after it really fast until you get Abundant Step. At that point take the Dimensional Agility feat. Abundant Step and Grapple.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
See how its CMD stacks up. Or have the Quinggong archetype and truestrike a grapple or stunning fist.
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Jump over it or take feather step as a quinggong power or just suck it up because you have tons of movement.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Jump over it.
Being underwater
not a good situation to be in, but if you can get water breathing from a buddy grapple is unaffected by water.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Acrobatics, and if you fall slow fall.
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Run. Very fast.
Being left with an improvised weapon.
What's a weapon?
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Grapple back, but you probably have the highest CMD of any PC except maybe a raging barbarian.
Magical effects on other party members.
Not much. If they're charmed or dominated you can grapple and hog tie them without killing them.
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
along a short enough chord you may be able to jump entangle. Black Tentacles attacks CMD, and yours is pretty good. As good as full BAB adding an extra stat, and a feat could push that to 5/4 BAB with a third stat added which might actually be worth it to keep people from breaking your grapples.
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Monks become immune to a lot of effects. Flat out assuming a failed save is discriminatory against monks and paladins though.
Natural 1's happen. Your save might be +1000 but a natural 1 will still get you.
Thoughts: I like these answers much more. More detail explicitly stating how DC's would be met and what abilities/skills might be used. I think one of the more interesting notes in the answers is how the monk solves some problems not by attacking but by using combat maneuvers which is something a fighter can excel at.
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Try sundering it. Um, it's going to be awhile.
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Hope someone has a glaive. Um, it's trapped?
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
This is not your lucky day. Still.
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Hope you're high enough level to memorize air walk.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
See above.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Same thing. Waste of a spell, but we do what we gotta do.
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Air Walk again. Gee, clerics seem to be useless until 9th level.
Crossing Lava
Hope I have Prot/fire and air walk.
Being in Lava
Prot/fire will keep me alive for maybe 3 rounds.
Killing an invisible enemy.
Woot! True Seeing for the win! Oops, again, I have to be 9th level. Hey, I'm running out of spell slots here!
Killing a burrowing enemy
I suppose I could try to summon or call an earth elemental. If I have that memorized.
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Ah, suck. Hopefully I can hold it. Dimensional anchor is so situational. Maybe it's extraplanar and I can banish it?
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Well, if I'm not a Good cleric and can use negative energy and channeling, I could try some Inflicts or Harms.
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Damn, need air walk again???
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Air walk.
Being underwater
Well, I can cast both these spells, but more likely I'm going to drown, because unless I know its coming, I never memorize Water Breathing.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Suck until 9th. Air Walk!
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Fear? Level 7 before I get that. Enthrall?
Being left with an improvised weapon.
No holy symbol? I have to summon one or I'm worthless.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
And I don't have Freedom of movement? Try to make that concentration check to get the spell off. No holy symbol? get out of range and claw for another one. Maybe use channeling.
Magical effects on other party members.
OH, here's my shtick. Tons of party buffs! I can actually do this starting at level 1!
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it) Dispel magic, probably under 50% success rate (NPC casters tend to be slightly higher level). Air Walk.
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Oh, I got tons of healing stuff, although I'm level 5 before I can really deal with most stuff (Disease, blindness, restorations). And, of course, I can't do it very often, and probably not until the next day. Only got a few spell slots, you know! At higher levels, Heal does it all, naturally...although I'll probably need that Break Enchantment.
Thoughts: Lots of snark coming off this one. Besdies, this is a test for martials. Not pure casters. I would answer this myself and probably give better answers. But that's not what I'm here for.
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Blast lock
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Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Blast lock
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Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Blast lock.
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Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Rope and Grappling hook+Climb skill
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Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Same as above
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Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Same as above
Did not note what to do with ceiling. I think I need to clarify that the wall goes all the way up to said ceiling
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Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Acrobatics and skill focus in such
Lots of canyon jumping. Should be noted that Gunslingers get Acrobatics as a class skill.
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Crossing Lava
Someone else or a spell
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Being in Lava
Move fast and cheat death
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Killing an invisible enemy.
Perception and Entangling alchemical bullets to hit it in a cone and keep it still.
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Killing a burrowing enemy
Ready to shot then activate my stunning shot deed.
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Killing a teleporting enemy.
Same as above
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Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
I’m a gunslinger nuf said
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Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Move slower.
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Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
same
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Being underwater
Dry load powder
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Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Acrobatics and skill focus
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A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Menacing shot
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Being left with an improvised weapon.
Depends if its immediate danger help the heavy hitters flank if I have a day and the rest of my gear make a new one.
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Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Can shot fine from prone weapon cords for disarm and try to keep range.
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Magical effects on other party members.
Nothing if I don’t have a potion
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Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Fight at range or get some back up if evasion won’t help
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Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Other than re-rolling the save do my best at what I do.
Thoughts: Gunslinger is proving that doors are just another target for his blunderbuss. In fact there's a lot of versatility coming out his gun. I think that it should be noted that some of these deeds mentioned cost Grit.
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Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Sunder it. Strength is a priority, and we can use 2 handers too.
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Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
As above, with a reach weapon. Alternatively, Summon Monster III and have a bull ram it down.
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Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Shatter if the door is nonmagical. Otherwise differ.
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Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Feather token (tree) which I crafted. Alternatively, boots of spider climb that I crafted. Climb out with a rope & grappling hook. Air Walk, Summon Monster II to summon a giant worker ant with a climb speed to carry me out, Summon Monster III to summon a giant lizard with a Climb speed to carry me out.
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Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
As above.
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Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Air walk, and possibly stone shape or summon monster III to summon a medium sized wolverine to burrow a tunnel under it.
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Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Summon Monster IV+ to summon an Air Elemental to carry me across the especially long chasms. Air Walk is an alternative. A flying zombie (such as a giant bat or similar) can ferry me across as well. Feather Token (tree) that I crafted, knocked across the expanse makes a bridge.
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Crossing Lava
Resist energy, or see above.
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Being in Lava
Resist energy again, because it makes me immune to lava.
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Killing an invisible enemy.
Bag of crushed chalk scattered around. Goggles of see invisibility which I crafted, or summon a babau who has constant see invisibility to direct the party.
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Killing a burrowing enemy
Summoned wolverines, borrowing undead, or just wait for them to emerge.
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Killing a teleporting enemy.
Dimensional anchor because smart casters never leave home without it (it's a no-save spell that bars teleportation and planar travel, and is a staple for fighting mages and outsiders).
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Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Summon Monster III+ to summon aurochs or later bison, and have them trample the enemy (ignores AC and turns it into a Reflex save for half damage). Alternatively, summon lantern archons and let them blast the foe to pieces using their touch-attack DR-ignoring rays. Alternatively still, inflict spells. Searing light. Alchemical weapons spam. Undead minions spamming alchemical weapons. Undead minions volley-firing with slings and rocks just to roll 20s.
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Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Air walk, undead mount, magic items I crafted, etc.
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Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
As above.
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Being underwater
Freedom of movement, water breathing, summoned elementals, undead, etc.
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Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Those boots of spider climbing I mentioned I crafted before.
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A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Diplomacy class skill. Alternatively, insect plague to create a wall that the mob refuses to go into. Alternatively, wall of stone to bar passage. Alternatively, scary undead.
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Being left with an improvised weapon.
Summon Monsters. Use club or poopy improvised weapon 'cause I'm a freain' BAMF! Strength is a priority. I have a 3/4 BAB. I can wear medium or heavy armor (with a feat). See divine favor, divine power, or righteous might. :D
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Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Fall on my butt, and eat the -4 to hit and AC. Locked gauntlets and a good CMD; freedom of movement and a good CMD; backup weapons, spells, minions, or natural attacks if I've become undead already.
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Magical effects on other party members.
Too many to list.
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Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Freedom of movement, resist energy, neutralize poison, etc.
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Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Freedom of movement, death ward, delay or neutralize poison, resist energy and a lot more that I don't feel like listing at the moment. :P
Thoughts: I didn't want a spellcaster in this but since this is a better answer from a cleric here it is. I think something that is notable is that a lot of problems are solved via the summon monster spell. Considering this is a pretty versatile spell a cleric could potentially have a lot of slots filled with this and be pretty good for it.
I'd like to see soemoen do this with a Rogue, a Barbarian and possibly a cavalier. Overall I think we're getting somewhere.
While the fighter should be able to do more outside of combat without relying on the skill level of the player to make him be able to do so, how much more is reasonable and/or what else is reasonable before people start to look down on the barbarian and ranger.
I guess a better question is what thing should the martial classes be able to do without relying on the casters, and what things should each martial class be able to do outside of combat without being the obvious choice.
Every martial class fails some of the earlier acid test so how many need to be passed by one build in order for a class to be viable?
By class I mean no outside magic item use or base feats since skill focus was shot down for the fighter earlier. If base feats are allowed then people are clearly on the same page, and until that is taken care of the discussion is rather pointless.
That's a good question. It's not one I'm sure we can answer. Fighter, Rogue, and Monk typically get the most guff out of the core classes, because their ability to contribute compared to other classes tends to be iffy. I think a Fighter could really use a serious skill point buff, possibly some cohorts like in previous editions, and more nice abilities that didn't require long and goofy feat chains.
My brother and I believe Rogues should probably be a d10 full BAB class as well, like a nonmagical ranger of sorts, along with some abilities that improved their skills and survivability, similar to how a Ranger has bonuses to Survival and a Bard to Knowledges. Haven't gotten around to writing up a house-rules fix for 'em yet.
But how's this for an acid test: Ranger vs Fighter. Seems pretty accurate.
That video is pretty much climb and acrobatics skills. Neither the fighter or ranger has acrobatics as a class skill. As far as the fighting I think they would both do well.
If the rogue goes to D10 he should lose sneak attack though or get it replaced. I did the math on DPR with full BAB. The question then becomes why play a fighter or even a ranger from a mechanical point of view. I always thought the rogue should be able to get a boost to skills even if it is only limited to X/day. There were other things too, but I would have to find the post.
Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
You do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.
You do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
Also the fighter can't use a wand of CLW, now who can use it???? oh right the ranger
Climb, both win. Acrobatics, both win. But Ranger has enough skill points to max both and 4 other skills like Perception (Legolas owns in this department), Stealth, Spellcraft, and Survival. I think it's still pretty accurate. Legolas also appears to have Knowledge (Nature) since he can recognize goblins by their cultural arrows.
If the rogue goes to D10 he should lose sneak attack though...
Not sure about that. Sneak attack is just too easy to ruin. Dim light? no sneak attack (without a feat). Someone drops a smokestick? No sneak attack. Someone casts obscuring mist? No sneak attack. Someone has fortification armor? Less sneak attack. A rogue and a ranger's DPR is too similar in my brother and I's opinion that the rogue should clearly dominate the Ranger in strait damage, especially when they get their sneak on. Not everyone shares that opinion, I'm sure, but at the moment nobody in our group really plays rogues anymore because they just aren't very good at solving problems, sneak attack is uninspiring, and they are lightly armored melee combatants (since ranged sneak-attack is mediocre at best).
You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
Yeah, and you know what? Rangers still have as many HP as Fighters, can actually use those CLW wands without UMD. Could actually MAKE those CLW wands if he decided that he wanted to burn a feat for it. You may not always have the option to rest, but if you're in the middle of an adventure and your teammates are all out of their mojo-juice, where are you at? Sucking up mojo juice. That's where.
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Also the fighter can't use a wand of CLW, now who can use it???? oh right the rangerYou do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
What's stopping a Fighter from using a wand of CLW? A fighter could take ranks in the UMD skill.
What's stopping a Fighter from using a wand of CLW? A fighter could take ranks in the UMD skill.Also the fighter can't use a wand of CLW, now who can use it???? oh right the rangerYou do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
Probably the dedication of skill points that he will likely need for things like Climb, Intimidate, or Acrobatics.
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Probably the dedication of skill points that he will likely need for things like Climb, Intimidate, or Acrobatics.What's stopping a Fighter from using a wand of CLW? A fighter could take ranks in the UMD skill.Also the fighter can't use a wand of CLW, now who can use it???? oh right the rangerYou do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
You don't really need to invest a lot of skill points in climb because your strength is going to make up for it. Not everyone uses Intimidate and you really only need a few points in Acrobatics. Again, a human fighter gets plenty of skill points during his career.
There's a whole feat line for intimidation AoE to become a debuffer as well, or swift aid and be a very weak single target buffer moving about and still doing all the stuff you'd normally do minus a swift action. I'm sure there's more but I'm not looking. Maybe there's more to a fighter than str/dex. Maybe there's a need for int in the class? Seems stupid right? A fighter who's smart? Whodathunkit! Do you think stupid people are perceptive? Have sense motive? Know how to survive in the wilderness and provide for others?
Con is a good choice for a fighter, since you're a front line melee class(Maybe an archer with that threatening bows line). But then again your class abilities synergy best with just str and dex. You're all about swingin weapons and wearing armor. If you don't get hit, you don't get hurt. You can be a little crazier in combat because you ARE combat. Fort saves are nice but it is your best save.
*shakes head sadly*
The Ranger can tank his Int to 7 and still have more skill points than a Fighter with a 13 Int. Just tossing that out there. The Fighter generally needs that sweet Con because without traits and burnt feats, his Perception lags behind, even if he's burning 50% of his base skill points into it, which means he's likely going to need to take a hit or three during surprise rounds.I know what it's like to Tank some Con on a warrior type. I had a Paladin who tanked Con hard, and had a blood disease in her backstory as part of her poor health. Her class features (swift action LoH and Divine Grace) helped to alleviate some of that (the extra Charisma she had as a result of her tanked Con translated to more HP via LoH, and offset the loss of Fort).
Also, the Debuff you're talking about is the Shaken condition. Not terrible, but often not worth the action to inflict either. It would be more useful if it came earlier. Sadly, antipaladins are better at the Debuffer role in spades. Charisma focus, Intimidate, Aura of Despair, etc. Just so much sexy built into that class, when it comes to working as a team.
This game loses strategy and becomes an MMO when everyone is trying to make the guy who does the most damage and dumping everything else. Min/Maxing was not the design balance the game considered. Look at the NPC stat blocks. Hero's should reflect that somewhat, as they are just common people who decided to do extraordinary things. If not I want my adamantium skeleton.
You apparently have no concept of popular MMOs. Those who play MMOs are quicky to tell you not to build glass cannons, because dead characters aren't useful at all. If you play World of Warcraft, there is a high priority for a healthy mixture of defensive equipment (such as PvP gear) and damage equipment (PvE gear). If you are too heavy defense, you won't be able to burst down foes who are able to out-heal your burst. If you're too heavy on offense, you become a glass cannon and get "blown up". Likewise, parties are generally put together based on what the different classes can bring to the table.
For example, in World of Warcraft...
Now in PvP like the battlegrounds where people play capture the flag, capturing bases, and so forth, where actual brains and strategy come into play, pure DPS is NOT your priority. Crowd control, solid survivability and moderate to good burst damage, and good pacing of your abilities are far more important than DPS races.
It seems your ignorance extends beyond tabletop RPGs.
Not sure about that. Sneak attack is just too easy to ruin. Dim light? no sneak attack (without a feat). Someone drops a smokestick? No sneak attack. Someone casts obscuring mist? No sneak attack. Someone has fortification armor? Less sneak attack. A rogue and a ranger's DPR is too similar in my brother and I's opinion that the rogue should clearly dominate the Ranger in strait damage, especially when they get their sneak on. Not everyone shares that opinion, I'm sure, but at the moment nobody in our group really plays rogues anymore because they just aren't very good at solving problems, sneak attack is uninspiring, and they are lightly armored melee combatants (since ranged sneak-attack is mediocre at best).
A rogue can be in a situation where he is not sneak attacking, but more than likely the flank is going to happen, even if it is delayed until round 2. I think I had the full BAB rogue doing 20 to 30 more damage per round than the fighter. Even when not sneak attack he was on par with the ranger which does not do bad damage even when the favored enemy is not available.
I agree that nobody(not 100%, just most of the people I know, and I guess Ashiel also) plays rogues as is, but they would be doing more damage than rangers, and have more skill points. They would also have rogue talents to fall back on. Even with a cha of 10 they still get to use UMD since its a class skill, but back to our fighter. That was almost a threadjack
The lack of perception kills me. I would have given the fighter 4 skill points. I think fighters have survival already. Sense Motive and Diplomacy also would have been nice.
A 20 point buy core fighter
str 16
dex 10
con 14
int 14
wis 12
cha 8(I think the 8 gives me 2 points. I did not consult the chart)
climb, swim, survival, perception, umd(favored class point)
As to the UMD issue it can be done, but not without skill focus it won't be done well for a few levels. The same applies to perception.
I guess this fighter is not too bad, but buying items to UMD gets expensive. If you go TWF with two weapons money is probably going to be tight.
At least I don't get stabbed in the back so easily. I can track in the wild. If the cleric goes down I can get him back up if a wand is around, assuming I make the check.
I don't think that is too bad, and I think this fighter holds his own in most games. It only cost 2 general feats. As for the lack of social skills most parties have someone for that and since I don't expect to be charming anyone I am satisfied keeping my mouth shut, just like I am satisfied not trying to disable traps or identify spells.
The ranger can do all of the above without feats except for the UMD thing, but he does not have feats to spare. Actually the ranger can do more, but I guess the question then becomes "is the damage trade-off worth it"?
I will admit I almost always play rangers over other martial classes. I do decent damage when I am not fighting a favored enemy, and I get to do other things as well.
I thought this wasn't an argument for the fighter to be able to do everything well? He has the skill points he needs to do what he chooses his build to be.Probably the dedication of skill points that he will likely need for things like Climb, Intimidate, or Acrobatics.What's stopping a Fighter from using a wand of CLW? A fighter could take ranks in the UMD skill.Also the fighter can't use a wand of CLW, now who can use it???? oh right the rangerYou do not always have the option to buy a wand of CLW, thanks to availability and distance from town (or any other magi-mart). The cleric (and other non-melee classes) just need a rest and ready to do great things again.Cleric: "Fighter, I feel we should take a rest, before heading into the Mouth of Doom."You do not always have the option to rest, the fighter (and other melee classes) just need a wand of CLW and ready to fight again.
But what is he choosing to be that someone else isn't simply doing better without making sacrifices?
@Khrysaor
Your fighters really sacrificed a lot of damage for one or two skill points and +1 will save, well i can understand the +1 will save but the amount of damage you gave up for one or two skill points is way too much.
A fighter is meant to be a level headed combatant.
Overall I disagree with this statement. A word generic as "fighter" does not automatically designate "level headed combatant" any more then rogue designates sneak thief or ranger designates tree hugger.
Overall I disagree with this statement. A word generic as "fighter" does not automatically designate "level headed combatant" any more then rogue designates sneak thief or ranger designates tree hugger.A fighter is meant to be a level headed combatant.
Hey hey now, ranger doesn't designate tree hugger, druid designates tree hugger.