I think there is a difference between the fighter can't do it, and the fighter has a harder time doing it. I think the fighter can bypass most obstacles that the others(melee types) can pass.
I do admit that depending on the build he may have a harder time.
PS:I wish people would stop throwing the word hate around so loosely. There is a difference between hating something, and not really caring for it.
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Break it? If you mean actually just opening it, he could if he put ranks into Disable Device. Honestly though, it's not what the fighter was designed to do so it's a non-issue.
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Same as before.
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Same as before
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Climb?
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Crossing Lava
Acrobatics is just a skill that needs ranks. There are also other options, like ropes and grappling hooks. Non-issue.
Being in Lava
How long?
Killing an invisible enemy.
You can see my build in the previous post. There are a slew of blind-fight feats and half-orcs can take scent.
Killing a burrowing enemy
Killing a teleporting enemy.
If the enemy is leaving, then the fighter has won. Problem solved already. If the enemy is coming back, then readied actions and vital strike chain can work just fine.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
This is a contrived scenario. Fighters have some of the best attack bonuses specifically meant to deal with this.
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
Nimble Moves feat chain. As well as just using Acrobatics to jump over the terrain to get to the enemy.
Being underwater
This comes up all the time in games...But yeah, he can do what everyone else would: rely on magic or racial abilities.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Acrobatics again. Since he seems to need it so often, it's probably time to put some ranks into it.
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Yup. A -4 to hit is rather trivial for a fighter. There are also feats like Catch off Guard that can help if this is a common enough problem. There are also feats for improving things like Reposition. Archetypes like the brawler and the cad.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
You can fight while tripped, so non-issue. Disarm and sunder require a back up weapon which most fighters will have. Grappling can be dealt with a variety of ways, but simply attacking with a light weapon (like an unarmed strike) or being a better grappler can often be enough.
Magical effects on other party members.
Go look at the Tactician build I put out there. He can actually prevent it. A party of Unbreakable fighters wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place.
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
So you want me to assume that I should just wander though? What about ranged attacks? What about jumping over it? What about just using your strength or CMD to deal with it?
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
The Unbreakable archetype does this.
However, many of your scenarios are still contrived. It is also clear what the problem is. You don't know how to play a fighter. You want to play something other than a fighter. That's cool. It's not a fault of the fighter class though. The class is not compatible with your play style.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
you guys miss the point of DND Its a team effort you need a skill monkey a figther a cleric and a mage compareing any one aginst another is a waste of time
That's a bit biased. You didn't even say rogue/thief, but noted fighter, cleric, and mage. :P
What you seem to mean is a warrior, a skill-monkey, a divine caster, and an arcane caster.
Of course, the first role can be filled by a Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger most competently. The Ranger can also fill the 2nd role, as can a Bard, or Rogue (but Rangers & Bards are better at it). Divine casters can be cleric or druid. Arcane caster is ideally one of several flavors of wizard, or possibly an expertly played sorcerer.
Any way you slice it, Fighters are lacking compared to most classes. Even those competing for their same slot in the party. A Ranger is more versatile in most scenarios, a Paladin is a much better tank, and barbarians are also good tanks (especially with stuff like superstitious). In addition to being more than adequate warriors, all of these classes have more to offer the group and fall back on, and more ways to overcome challenges besides just hitting things. Ranger spells for example are exceptionally good, including everything from battlefield control spells to freedom of movement. Both Paladins and Rangers can support as healers via wands, craft their own magic items without wasting feats and skill points, and so forth.
Just to use TarkXT's examples, let's look at the Ranger...
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
2-handed weapon + power attack.
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
As above with reach weapon.
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Falls back to party members with expertise in this.
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Climb skill, Jump spell, or drops a feather token (tree).
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
Feather token (tree).
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Fall back to party members with expertise, or begins hacking at it to the best of his ability.
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Jump spell and ranks in Jump skill.
Crossing Lava
Resist energy.
Being in Lava
Resist energy and freedom of movement.
Killing an invisible enemy.
Perception class skill, entangle, potion of see invisibility.
Killing a burrowing enemy
Situational, possibly water walk.
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Needs a party member to use dimensional anchor, or uses magic items or tree stride to attempt to give chase (but this is often a poor tactic).
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
If low-ish levels, carpet bombing alchemist fires with rapid shot, dual-wielding, and iterative attacks. If against enemies with energy resistances, use spells like spike growth to deal damage that bypasses AC altogether. If all else fails, gain as many attacks as possible and roll for 20s, or retreat.
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Longstrider, water walk, freedom of movement, and Woodland Stride.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
As above but without Woodland Stride.
Being underwater
As above but without Water Walk and Woodland Stride.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Enough ranks and bonuses in Acrobatics to never fail the balance DC.
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Entangle, or spike growth which forces the mob to either stop or injure themselves (assuming a rampaging mob will probably not choose to harm themselves).
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Power attack, and possibly oil of magic weapon and gravity blade.
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Problems, locked gauntlets, freedom of movement, spare weapons.
Magical effects on other party members.
Neutralize poison, remove disease, resist energy, protection from energy, wind wall, nondetection, freedom of movement, cure spells.
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Freedom of movement, tree stride, jump, flying companion (such as giant bat), etc.
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Neutralize poison, remove disease, resist energy, protection from energy, wind wall, nondetection, freedom of movement, cure spells.
Also the ability to craft his own resistance gear without wasting feats and skill points on Master Artisan, allowing him to begin making his own gear like +resistance items at 3rd and 5th level at the earliest.
EDIT: It amuses me that most of the Fighter's options, by Bob_Loblaw's post, require spending skill points they rarely have, playing a specific race, or asking questions like "how long" for being in lava. A lot of it also assumes the Fighter must have various feat chains. It is amusing to me. :P
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Same as before[/b]
So you're either going to break the nigh unbreakable door (probably eating the trap to the face in the process) or put points in a cross class skill...okay.
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
This is a contrived scenario. Fighters have some of the best attack bonuses specifically meant to deal with this.
Hardly, this can actually be very common. Particularly at the lower levels when you don't have all your goodies yet. You can just be debuffed to the point where this scenario comes up. But the point isn't how or why only that it is and how to deal with it.
Fun note: Gunslingers LOVE this dillemma, paladin's can divine bond for brilliant energy and not even worry about it (unless its undead). These are martial classes with many of the same skills and feat options available to them as a fighter does.
Being underwater
This comes up all the time in games...But yeah, he can do what everyone else would: rely on magic or racial abilities.
Both of which are not being factored into this. Granted, this is one of the harder situations to deal with for martial characters so I wasn't expecting much.
Fun note: With a piercing weapon, a high enough swim score and a good con score you might be okay anyway.
Magical effects on other party members.
Go look at the Tactician build I put out there. He can actually prevent it. A party of Unbreakable fighters wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place.
I'm assuming you mean Shake it Off? Wherein you have to use a standard action to use?
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
So you want me to assume that I should just wander though? What about ranged attacks? What about jumping over it? What about just using your strength or CMD to deal with it?
Assume what you like. There are lots and lots of bad magical effects that can happen to a place if you have multiple options list them out.
Ultimately nearly every answer given comes down to "use a skill". From a class that doesn't get many from the start. So far we have seen that acrobatics looks like an absolutely required skill since it does end up being used so much. However it's also relatively common in classes that have more skill points to allot to it.
Also my skill as to whether or not I can play a fighter is irrelevant so I would ask to stop trying to cite it.
eh w/e i'm done with the whining on these forums either change it for your game of get over it. dnd was and has been made to be played with a party of characters against monsters. You want to complain cause it doesn't work for something outside of what it is designed for. its just the class of the week to dispute get a life.
EDIT: It amuses me that most of the Fighter's options, by Bob_Loblaw's post, require spending skill points they rarely have, playing a specific race, or asking questions like "how long" for being in lava. A lot of it also assumes the Fighter must have various feat chains. It is amusing to me. :P
If you are in a game that needs acrobatics checks this often, then you should be investing in the skill. That was the point I made when I actually said so.
Playing a specific race opened up options that were not there. The fighter also comes with a race. Notice that the fighting invisible opponents can be done without playing a half-orc. The half-orc just made it better. As for fighting underwater, if this is a common problem in a game, then the players and GM need to sit down and figure out what works best. Just like a fire elementalist wouldn't work well underwater, it doesn't prove that the fire elementalist doesn't work well all the time.
As for the feat chains, if you are constantly fighting certain types of creatures (like ones that turn invisible) then why wouldn't you use the feat chains available to you?
You probably don't play blasters because they don't deal enough damage. If you played in a game where there were tons of weaker monsters instead of a few tougher ones, blasters become much more appealing. Everything is campaign dependent. You cannot properly evaluate any class without looking at it in context of how it will be played.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
eh w/e i'm done with the whining on these forums either change it for your game of get over it. dnd was and has been made to be played with a party of characters against monsters. You want to complain cause it doesn't work for something outside of what it is designed for. its just the class of the week to dispute get a life.
Do you react like a child and tell people to get a life anytime something you say is scrutinized, criticized, or contested? You might want to revise your responses.
D&D was and has been made to be played with a party of chzaracters against obstacles*. These obstacles may be traps, NPCs (including monsters), and environmental problems. D&D is not only about whacking monsters.
Likewise, Fighters have issues against those monsters you mention, particularly at mid to high levels, where whacking stuff with sticks becomes less useful against more things.
As for the feat chains, if you are constantly fighting certain types of creatures (like ones that turn invisible) then why wouldn't you use the feat chains available to you?
This is the main thing I have a problem with. Constantly is not an issue. It only takes one encounter to wipe you off the face of the world. Being able to adapt is key to survival in D&D. I kept it very general with my ranger examples, whereas your Fighter examples require specific races, investment of 1/2 your skill points into a non-class skill, and building your character a specific way.
The ranger I used as an example? Any ranger can do that. Doesn't matter if you're human, elf, half-orc, goblin, or awakened chimpanzee, it's ranger all the way. They do have skill points to invest into a wide variety of skills (even with a 7 Int, a Ranger still sports 4/level skill points before favored class or bonus skill points).
Which is essentially the point. One has options, the other has problems. And even more awesome is that the Ranger's options are often good for multiple situations.
You probably don't play blasters because they don't deal enough damage. If you played in a game where there were tons of weaker monsters instead of a few tougher ones, blasters become much more appealing. Everything is campaign dependent. You cannot properly evaluate any class without looking at it in context of how it will be played.
I blast sparingly, because blasting is good in some situations but it is exceedingly selective in the moments it is useful. Blasting can be good for wiping out clusters of mooks, but also exceedingly good at destroying your treasure, killing bystanders, nuking your own party when space limitations don't facilitate very well, and so forth. I use blast spells occasionally, but I favor spells that can be used in multiple situations. If I don't encounter tons of mooks in waves of closely packed formations, no sweat. If I do, then I have a spell for that too. Just happens to be the same spell.
Individual campaigns don't do much for discussing the balance of classes. Anyone with a brain in their head can tell this if they just think about it for a moment. Spellcasters are amazingly awesome, but they are going to look less awesome in a game where all you fight is magic immune golems (though since spellcasters have options they are still playable in such games easily enough).
That's why TarkXT made a list of various random things that might show up in a campaign. Something of an acid test. Seems fair enough to me.
Quote:
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)Same as before[/b]
So you're either going to break the nigh unbreakable door (probably eating the trap to the face in the process) or put points in a cross class skill...okay.
You have given no information on the lock. That's one of the options for dealing with the door. And honestly, this is the perfect example of a contrived scenario. Besides, if the rogue can open the locks, why does it matter if my fighter can or can't?
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
This is a contrived scenario. Fighters have some of the best attack bonuses specifically meant to deal with this.
Hardly, this can actually be very common. Particularly at the lower levels when you don't have all your goodies yet. You can just be debuffed to the point where this scenario comes up. But the point isn't how or why only that it is and how to deal with it.
If this is very common, then the GM needs to work harder on building balanced encounters. This should not be very common at all. Gaining some bonuses to hit aren't hard though. Flanking, charging, higher ground, aid another, etc, are all options and can sometimes be used on the same turn.
Being underwaterThis comes up all the time in games...But yeah, he can do what everyone else would: rely on magic or racial abilities.
Both of which are not being factored into this. Granted, this is one of the harder situations to deal with for martial characters so I wasn't expecting much.Fun note: With a piercing weapon, a high enough swim score and a good con score you might be okay anyway.
You're not accounting for being able to stay underwater, which is where I thought you were going with this. How long will you be underwater?
Magical effects on other party members.
Go look at the Tactician build I put out there. He can actually prevent it. A party of Unbreakable fighters wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place.
I'm assuming you mean Shake it Off? Wherein you have to use a standard action to use?
Shake it Off isn't an action at all. If you were looking at the Unbreakable fighter, then you were probably thinking of Heroic Recovery. A standard action is the same as using a spell to do the same thing so I don't see what the problem is. However, a party of unbreakable fighters wouldn't need to be worried in the first place.
Ultimately nearly every answer given comes down to "use a skill". From a class that doesn't get many from the start. So far we have seen that acrobatics looks like an absolutely required skill since it does end up being used so much. However it's also relatively common in classes that have more skill points to allot to it.
You have obviously not looked at a single fighter build I've put out there. The tactical fighter had so many skill points that I was actually trying to figure out what I wanted to do with them all. I probably had far more than I needed.
Also my skill as to whether or not I can play a fighter is irrelevant so I would ask to stop trying to cite it.
It's being brought up because it is obvious that you are criticizing something you don't know how to play. Your problems aren't with the fighter class.
Don't mistake my defending the fighter as to thinking it's perfect. It's not. However, it is very playable and can be an excellent addition to a party.
You have given no information on the lock. That's one of the options for dealing with the door. And honestly, this is the perfect example of a contrived scenario. Besides, if the rogue can open the locks, why does it matter if my fighter can or can't?
I've played in and GMed for parties that have no rogue. Sometimes opening a lock is an option, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes doors don't have traditional locks, but instead are barred from the other side (as in the ones that have a bar that slides down to prevent the door from opening). The point is, how do you deal with this situation? Can you deal with this situation? If you must rely on another class, how often do you have to defer to another class throughout the list?
If this is very common, then the GM needs to work harder on building balanced encounters. This should not be very common at all. Gaining some bonuses to hit aren't hard though. Flanking, charging, higher ground, aid another, etc, are all options and can sometimes be used on the same turn.
So having enemies who have high AC is an exercise in unbalancing encounters? Perhaps having enemies with high Reflex saves is also really bad. I doubt it. Likewise, having high ACs isn't very hard to do. There are tons of creatures that have lots of natural armor. Heck, running into high ACs is something you're almost assured to deal with if your GM includes Troglodytes, Lizardfolk, or small creatures like kobolds and goblins in the game (their natural AC and/or size modifiers are very noteworthy).
Hiding behind "well your GM shouldn't use monsters with big AC" seems like a fold on this one to me. Heck, you could have answered it, but you didn't even bother to try. In my ranger example, I opted to alchemist-spam enemies as fast and hard as possible. Man, 3-5 attacks per round, splashing something with a total of 3d6-5d6 points of AC-ignoring DR-piercing fire damage followed by an equal amount on the next round seems entirely reasonable. Heck, I even get favored enemy bonuses to hit and damage, and probably point blank shot. Life is good, life is good.
This is the main thing I have a problem with. Constantly is not an issue. It only takes one encounter to wipe you off the face of the world. Being able to adapt is key to survival in D&D. I kept it very general with my ranger examples, whereas your Fighter examples require specific races, investment of 1/2 your skill points into a non-class skill, and building your character a specific way.
As for the feat chains, if you are constantly fighting certain types of creatures (like ones that turn invisible) then why wouldn't you use the feat chains available to you?
Any properly built character will be built for the campaign it is being run through. Honestly none of the fighters I built would be wiped off the face of the world because of one encounter unless the GM willed it so. At least no more so than any other character.
The ranger I used as an example? Any ranger can do that. Doesn't matter if you're human, elf, half-orc, goblin, or awakened chimpanzee, it's ranger all the way. They do have skill points to invest into a wide variety of skills (even with a 7 Int, a Ranger still sports 4/level skill points before favored class or bonus skill points).
I don't really care if another class can do things too. In fact, it may be that everyone is going to need a solution to the problem because one person can't do it all all the time. It's ok with me. I'm also a team player so I understand that if one character can't succeed, that another might be able to. It's just fine with me. Of course, you haven't actually provided a build so I can only go off of what you are saying and hand wave it away with the same ease that you waved it in.
Which is essentially the point. One has options, the other has problems. And even more awesome is that the Ranger's options are often good for multiple situations.
Go and look at the tactical fighter I built and tell me that he has problems with skills. Try to convince me.
I blast sparingly, because blasting is good in some situations but it is exceedingly selective in the moments it is useful. Blasting can be good for wiping out clusters of mooks, but also exceedingly good at destroying your treasure, killing bystanders, nuking your own party when space limitations don't facilitate very well, and so forth. I use blast spells occasionally, but I favor spells that can be used in multiple situations. If I don't encounter tons of mooks in waves of closely packed formations, no sweat. If I do, then I have a spell for that too. Just happens to be the same spell.
I would love to see which spells handle tons of opponents and single opponents with the same level of ease. You should also show me a couple of every level. There are certainly some, but the more you prep them, the less you prep other spells.
Individual campaigns don't do much for discussing the balance of classes. Anyone with a brain in their head can tell this if they just think about it for a moment. Spellcasters are amazingly awesome, but they are going to look less awesome in a game where all you fight is magic immune golems (though since spellcasters have options they are still playable in such games easily enough).
We've been down this road before. And the simple fact that you still can't see that there are plenty of others that say fighters are awesome in their games still eludes you. This fact is all that anyone with a brain in their head can tell if they just think about it for a moment.
It is also very clear that you don't understand how to write or run long campaigns with a theme. "Golems" is not a theme. It's a monster. Declaring something amazingly awesome doesn't make it so.
That's why TarkXT made a list of various random things that might show up in a campaign. Something of an acid test. Seems fair enough to me.
Anyone who thinks those were random is confusing "random" with "contrived." Those were specifically meant to be vague enough to be meaningless as well as specifically chosen to be challenges for a single class that was never meant to handle those (picking locks and fighting in lava or underwater?). They were not random in the slightest.
Any properly built character will be built for the campaign it is being run through. Honestly none of the fighters I built would be wiped off the face of the world because of one encounter unless the GM willed it so. At least no more so than any other character.
It is also very clear that you don't understand how to write or run long campaigns with a theme. "Golems" is not a theme. It's a monster. Declaring something amazingly awesome doesn't make it so.
Here we have a disconnect. I'm not sure what sort of campaigns you are playing in, or running, but in my group and the groups I have played with, we do not get such meta-game conveniences. Nor do those campaigns require that there be a theme that is consistently adhered to. Invisible enemies is not a theme, it's a situation. It's an obstacle.
In a given campaign, a player may go from fighting goblins to balors, and may go from the green fields to snowy mountain peaks to old towers overlooking the ocean while the party fights ogres and giants in the middle of a ferocious thunderstorm, as a cacophony of battle and howling winds and thunderbolts rage around you. You might traverse through a forest that is filled with giant spiders and ettercaps, only to encounter trolls over the next hillside.
However, yeah, it only takes one encounter for your character die. Hold person or drow poison or even sleep followed by a coup de grace means that PC is pushing daisies, and everyone is pitching in to try and get you raised. Assuming, of course, that your remains are intact. It kind of sucks if during that battle or later your remains are destroyed.
It only takes one encounter that you didn't think to pack an oil of magic weapon to be overrun by shadows, slain, and turned into a shadow yourself. Sucks, but it happens.
That's why when I build Fighters, I think not just about what I know I'm going up against, but things I might encounter one day. What if during that side-quest where you're trying to rescue the mayor's daughter, you're suddenly beset by cave trolls? Nobody said there would be cave trolls! I thought the adventure was very undead-heavy! Oh noes, what shall I do!? Oh noes, there is a trapped locked door that doesn't have a conventional lock! We need our...rogue? Er, no we don't have one of those. Oh look, the cave trolls lived near a underground lake, which leads to another passage - and it seems the kidnapper went across in a boat that we don't have - and there is apparently bad things lurking in the water for us!
I realize we will not see eye to eye on this, because frankly I just think your rationalization for the fighter not having general problems is just crazy. TarkXT gave a wide example of scenarios and just asked for people to explain how they would react. I don't think that every class will have an answer for every question, but we can already see the ranger had a solid list of possibilities.
I will trouble you no more, sir.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The fighter can deal with fighting without a lot of investment in magic items, if he's built that way.
He can't, really, and that's the problem. Protection from big grapplers, flight ability and protection from mind-affecting low level fightstoppers are just the first few things that come to mind that the Fighter needs magic items for.
It seems like you're arguing from an older edition, where save v. spells was fairly rare, and Fighting Man had excellent saves. Now, Will Save or Lose happens all the time, and Fighters have bad Will saves and Wisdom as a dump stat (a position they share with the other pure martials, Rogues and Barbarians - both of which have the option to shore up this weakness with class abilities).
The casters are also very gear dependent, regardless of what some people want to claim. Even Tark mentioned that the wizard should have a bunch of scrolls. That's gear. In order to get their DCs up for their spells, they will need more gear.
Caster gear makes the caster better. Fighter gear is absolutely required to be allowed to play.
I would love to see what a wizard restricted to mundane items would do against a fighter restricted to mundane items. It would be interesting. The easiest way to do this would be to use PFS rules so that the wizard doesn't also have scribe scroll. It would be unfair to take away a class feature if someone wanted to do this.
Levitate, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, and those are just the 1. and 2. level spells.
you guys miss the point of DND Its a team effort you need a skill monkey a figther a cleric and a mage compareing any one aginst another is a waste of time
Sure. Bard, Druid, Cleric, Wizard is a great, well-rounded party. And duels are silly.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I'm seeing here is not a problem with the fighter at all but people trying to put the fighter into situations to try and make the fighter look bad in order to justify their argument. I can come up with situations to make each and every class look bad but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the class. Not every class can handle each and every situation and there are times when it takes everyone helping each other in order to get through an encounter or a situation.
When you have to go out of your way to try and make the fighter look bad then there is a problem with that person and not the fighter.
Bob is the only one who's been posting builds of fighters so he's been putting his money where his mouth is.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I'm seeing here is not a problem with the fighter at all but people trying to put the fighter into situations to try and make the fighter look bad in order to justify their argument. I can come up with situations to make each and every class look bad but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the class. Not every class can handle each and every situation and there are times when it takes everyone helping each other in order to get through an encounter or a situation.
The basic premise is that the fighter sucks at two things: Combat, and non-combat. We say this, not because we hate fighters, not because we're pencil-necked dweebs who hate jocks, but because it's true. Experience shows that fighters just don't pull their weight in a group, starting somewhere between level 1 and 11 depending on group and optimization.
The arguments for the fighter NOT sucking are as follows:
*Endurance. Which is bullshit, because he relies on casters to resupply HP.
*Flavor (My dude used to run an inn! How awesome is that?!). Bullshit, because flavor applies to any character regardless of class. Besides, Fighter is shit for flavor, because he gets 2 skill points and has an Int of either 7 or 13.
*House rules. That's the Oberoni Fallacy, look it up if you don't know it.
*Pandering. I can build scenarios around the Fighter and give him extra-sweet loot. How cute. That's actually an admission that Fighter sucks, not an argument that he doesn't.
*I can build him to do X: Congratulations, you're now mediocre at X, and suck even harder at everything else. And you can't change your build.
*Magic items. I can cover weakness X with item Y. I can solve problem Z with item Omega. The first one usually ends in cherrypicking. After the flying, the teleportation, the interaction and the counter-illusion items, poor fight-dude doesn't have the cash for weapons, defense and strength-boosters. Meanwhile, other classes either don't have the weakness in question or can cover it with class abilities. And THEN they can get magic items that actually synergize. As for specific problem solving, it's often a case of Fighter fans not understanding rules - see the Amulet of Non-Detection from the recent Paladin vs. Wizard thread. Magic items can often provide a mediocre solution at the modest cost of all your money; casters get to apply their CL and casting stat, for free.
"Doing damage without expending spell slots" is a valid contribution to a party. But Clerics, Druids and Bards (And Inquisitors, Alchemists, Magi, Oracles, even Rangers and Paladins) just do it better. Not because they bring bigger numbers, but because it's not their ONLY contribution. Every single non-combat contribution from a Fighter can be done at least as well by a Commoner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What I'm seeing here is not a problem with the fighter at all but people trying to put the fighter into situations to try and make the fighter look bad in order to justify their argument. I can come up with situations to make each and every class look bad but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the class. Not every class can handle each and every situation and there are times when it takes everyone helping each other in order to get through an encounter or a situation.
When you have to go out of your way to try and make the fighter look bad then there is a problem with that person and not the fighter.
Bob is the only one who's been posting builds of fighters so he's been putting his money where his mouth is.
Bob's Fighter relies on a lot of specifics that are beyond just being the Fighter. In fact, it relies on a lot of stuff that is outside the core rules as well. Bob's Fighter also makes excuses. You're making a lot of excuses too. People who fervently defend Fighters always make excuses. It's kind of an interesting thing.
I don't see how anyone has gone out of their way to make the Fighter look bad. You guys are doing that well enough. Instead of actually explaining how a Fighter can react to something by virtue of being a Fighter, specific races are cited, or they keep deferring to other classes which may not be present. Heck, he couldn't even answer what to do when you come up against a "brick wall" monster.
I've seen Bob's Fighter. His skills do not impress me. His Acrobatics are weaksauce. His build is unimpressive for demonstrating why Fighters are nice, as it relies on specific archtypes, specific races, a hefty bit of extra material, his AC is pretty lame for his level, and the feats he cited as how a Fighter overcomes stuff aren't in his build, further illustrating that adapting and learning is pretty difficult for Fighters. Toss in the fact his Acrobatics is a +0 at 19th level, despite that being the #1 fallback in the Fighter's options on TarkXT's acid test when questioned. Yeah, I'm very unimpressed with this.
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Unbreakable) 20
LE Large Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Scent; Perception +31
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 34, touch 16, flat-footed 31. . (+14 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +4 natural, +4 deflection)
hp 284 (20d10+140)
Fort +24, Ref +14, Will +19
Defensive Abilities Stalwart, Unflinching +5; DR 5/—; Immune mind-affecting
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee +5 Defending, Guardian, Speed Cold Iron Greataxe +31/+31/+26/+21/+16 (3d6+43/20/x3)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +11) +25/+20/+15/+10 (1d8+13/20/x3)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 24/32, Dex 12/16, Con 18/24, Int 10, Wis 14/20, Cha 8/14
Base Atk +20; CMB +32; CMD 49
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Diehard, Endurance, Furious Focus, Greater Blind-Fight, Greater Penetrating Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Greater Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Greater Weapon Specialization: Greataxe, Heroic Defiance (3/day), Heroic Recovery (4/day), Improved Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Keen Scent, Penetrating Strike, Power Attack -6/+12, Scent of Fear, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Greataxe, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe
Traits Conspiracy Hunter: Perception, Legacy of Sand
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +8, Escape Artist +0, Fly -2, Intimidate +27, Perception +31, Ride +0, Stealth -4, Swim +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Armor Mastery (Ex), Armor Training 2 (Ex), Miraculous Recovery, Quick Recovery (Ex), Unlimited Endurance (Ex)
Combat Gear +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +11), +5 Defending, Guardian, Speed Cold Iron Greataxe, +5 Fortification, Heavy Full Plate, Adamantine Arrows (20), Cold Iron Arrows (20), Silversheen Arrows (20); Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots, Winged, Boots, Winged, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Efficient Quiver (61 @ 12 lbs), Headband of Mental Prowess, WIS & CHA +6, Manual of Bodily Health, +3, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4, Ring of Protection, +4, Shoanti War Paint (Red)
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Adamantine Arrows - 0/20
Cold Iron Arrows - 0/20
Heroic Defiance (3/day) - 0/3
Heroic Recovery (4/day) - 0/4
Shoanti War Paint (Red) - 0/1
Silversheen Arrows - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 2 (Ex) Worn armor -2 check penalty, +2 max DEX.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) You may make up to 4 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Diehard You are stable and can choose how to act when at -1 to -9 HP.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Greater Blind-Fight Melee attacks treat total concealment as 20%, and invisible ranged attackers you have pinpointed gain no benefits against you.
Greater Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 10 points of DR/? or 5 points of DR/–.
Heroic Defiance (3/day) 1/day, delay the onset of a harmful affliction or condition until the end of your next turn.
Heroic Recovery (4/day) 1/day, attempt an extra Fort save against a harmful condition or affliction.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Improved Blind-Fight Melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment and can still reroll for total concealment. Invisible attackers within 30' you have pinpointed gain no advantages to hit you with ranged attacks.
Miraculous Recovery When making save vs ongoing effect, may roll twice and choose better roll.
Penetrating Strike Ignore up to 5 points of DR/?.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Recovery (Ex) At 11th level, an unbreakable needs only 15 minutes of rest or to be subject to a healing spell or effect to recover from the fatigued condition. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Scent of Fear +2 to hit shaken or frightened opponents, and can detect them at twice the normal range. +2 to Will saves if you can smell fear.
Stalwart (Ex) If you succeed at a Fort or Will save for reduced effect, you take none instead.
Unflinching +5 (Ex) +5 Will save vs. mind-affecting effects
Unlimited Endurance (Ex) When exhausted, only suffer the effects of fatigued.
Vital Strike Standard action: x4 weapon damage dice.
|
|
What I'm seeing here is not a problem with the fighter at all but people trying to put the fighter into situations to try and make the fighter look bad in order to justify their argument. I can come up with situations to make each and every class look bad but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the class. Not every class can handle each and every situation and there are times when it takes everyone helping each other in order to get through an encounter or a situation.
When you have to go out of your way to try and make the fighter look bad then there is a problem with that person and not the fighter.
Bob is the only one who's been posting builds of fighters so he's been putting his money where his mouth is.
Bob's Fighter relies on a lot of specifics that are beyond just being the Fighter. In fact, it relies on a lot of stuff that is outside the core rules as well. Bob's Fighter also makes excuses. You're making a lot of excuses too. People who fervently defend Fighters always make excuses. It's kind of an interesting thing.
I don't see how anyone has gone out of their way to make the Fighter look bad. You guys are doing that well enough. Instead of actually explaining how a Fighter can react to something by virtue of being a Fighter, specific races are cited, or they keep deferring to other classes which may not be present. Heck, he couldn't even answer what to do when you come up against a "brick wall" monster.
I've seen Bob's Fighter. His skills do not impress me. His Acrobatics are weaksauce. His build is unimpressive for demonstrating why Fighters are nice, as it relies on specific archtypes, specific races, a hefty bit of extra material, his AC is pretty lame for his level, and the feats he cited as how a Fighter overcomes stuff aren't in his build, further illustrating that adapting and learning is pretty difficult for Fighters. Toss in the fact his Acrobatics is a +0 at 19th level, despite that being the #1 fallback in the Fighter's options on...
All I hear from people like you is excuses as to why the fighter isn't good. I also see no examples of your own that back up your claim. You have yet to actually post something to back you up.
Why are you worried about a brick wall monster? There are several ways to get past a brick wall monster. Give me some specific examples of these brick wall monsters.
|
|
What I'm seeing here is not a problem with the fighter at all but people trying to put the fighter into situations to try and make the fighter look bad in order to justify their argument. I can come up with situations to make each and every class look bad but that doesn't mean there is a problem with the class. Not every class can handle each and every situation and there are times when it takes everyone helping each other in order to get through an encounter or a situation.
The basic premise is that the fighter sucks at two things: Combat, and non-combat. We say this, not because we hate fighters, not because we're pencil-necked dweebs who hate jocks, but because it's true. Experience shows that fighters just don't pull their weight in a group, starting somewhere between level 1 and 11 depending on group and optimization.
The arguments for the fighter NOT sucking are as follows:
*Endurance. Which is b**+%+$!, because he relies on casters to resupply HP.
*Flavor (My dude used to run an inn! How awesome is that?!). B+&!#~##, because flavor applies to any character regardless of class. Besides, Fighter is s+~# for flavor, because he gets 2 skill points and has an Int of either 7 or 13.
*House rules. That's the Oberoni Fallacy, look it up if you don't know it.
*Pandering. I can build scenarios around the Fighter and give him extra-sweet loot. How cute. That's actually an admission that Fighter sucks, not an argument that he doesn't.
*I can build him to do X: Congratulations, you're now mediocre at X, and suck even harder at everything else. And you can't change your build.
*Magic items. I can cover weakness X with item Y. I can solve problem Z with item Omega. The first one usually ends in cherrypicking. After the flying, the teleportation, the interaction and the counter-illusion items, poor fight-dude doesn't have the cash for weapons, defense and strength-boosters. Meanwhile, other classes either don't have the weakness in question or can cover it with class...
LOL!!! What experience and who's experience are you talking about here? You say that experience shows but you have yet to post any data that actually backs you up. Experience from someone who doesn't know how to play a fighter is not experience I would really count on or listen to.
Magic Items: You do realize that all PC's rely on gear and that magic items are assumed when playing the game so why is this even relevant? Your claims aren't making any sense to be honest.
Why are you worried about a brick wall monster? There are several ways to get past a brick wall monster. Give me some specific examples of these brick wall monsters.
I'm not worried about brick wall monsters. In fact, they don't worry me in the least. I copy/pasted TarkXT's list, without looking at it first, then answered each question one by one as if I was playing a ranger. I got to the question of a monster with heinously high AC, and happily jotted my tactic of choice and moved on. Bob cried fowl and tried to imply that such a monster was bad design on the GM's part and shouldn't even be a consideration. I laughed. Boy did I laugh, but I kind of cried a little on the inside too.
A "brick wall" monster is generally a monster that's difficult to kill through physical attacks. The most common brick wall is a creature with exceptionally high AC, making them something of a pain to beat to death in the usual fashion. They can come at high and low levels, and in all kinds of shapes and sizes.
An example of a brick wall might be a troglodyte warrior wearing armor.
+7 AC splint mail, +6 natural, +2 shield, brings you to a 25 AC on a CR 1 creature. Fighting defensively brings it up to 27 AC. Even with an 18 strength, +2 BAB, and Weapon Focus, you're going to need a 20 to hit it. That's an example of a brick wall at low levels. My suggestion was to just kill it with fire (alchemist fire that is), and I kept moving down the list answering questions.
Answering the questions on the list wasn't hard, and there was only a couple of times that I would have needed to rely on somebody else, which was fine. However, when Bob was answering the questions, he either complained or gave answers that his presented Fighter wasn't capable of doing, or his answers relied on being a particular build if Fighter with a particular race and particular feats, demonstrating a severe problem that anyone who is new to the game, doesn't have access to the feats (a lot of his stuff wasn't core), and so forth.
TarkXT's list wasn't all encompassing, but it did have a lot of stuff you can reasonably run into during a given campaign, and probably do exist. You might not see all of those things, or you might be tripping over a large portion of those things every session. That's not what the list was there to determine. The list was a test that, if answering from your class, did you have options to reasonably deal with these sorts of things. Most of those sorts of things were general adventuring stuff, like dealing with terrains, dungeons, etc.
I had no problems answering those questions with a ranger. No complaints. I may happily do so again with Paladin, Barbarian, and Bard soon, just 'cause it was kind of fun thinking about it. Like a quiz almost. Yet for some reason people are complaining that it's not fair for Fighters, or keep relying on the hope the Fighters have other people in the party who can help carry their weight in situations.
Like I said, it is not we (certainly not I) who is hating on the Fighter. You guys make them look worse than we ever could. We merely acknowledge their flaws. Those who are fervently defending them are making them sound even worse than I think they are.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
LOL!!! What experience and who's experience are you talking about here? You say that experience shows but you have yet to post any data that actually backs you up. Experience from someone who doesn't know how to play a fighter is not experience I would really count on or listen to.
Magic Items: You do realize that all PC's rely on gear and that magic items are assumed when playing the game so why is this even relevant? Your claims aren't making any sense to be honest.
Experience. Mine and others. Accumulated over years of playing. Disdain for the Fighter is a well-known fact. Writing up various scenarios where Fighters fail to contribute is hardly the point of this thread. But, short list, they can't meaningfully engage enemies, they are easy to lock down, they fall easily to save-or-lose, they contribute nothing outside combat, they lose fights they should be winning. Specialized fighter builds can solve exactly one of these problems.
Here's how this thread, and every thread like it goes:
1: Fighter sucks at X, Y and Z
2: Fighter can be mediocre at X by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
3: Fighter can be mediocre at Y by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
4: Fighter can be mediocre at Z by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
4B: Therefore, Fighters do not suck at X, Y and Z.
5: Argument from House Rules (That usually don't fix a god damn thing, because they don't adress what's actually wrong, and don't go anywhere near far enough)
6: Argument from pandering
7: Argument from fluff
Fighter needs magic items more than anybody else, because he doesn't have any relevant class abilities. He cant deal with a single problem that can't be solved by swinging a sword or shooting an arrow, he needs magic items or caster help for EVERYTHING. Some of us consider that a problem, because we like competent characters who contribute to problem-solving.
|
|
LOL!!! What experience and who's experience are you talking about here? You say that experience shows but you have yet to post any data that actually backs you up. Experience from someone who doesn't know how to play a fighter is not experience I would really count on or listen to.
Magic Items: You do realize that all PC's rely on gear and that magic items are assumed when playing the game so why is this even relevant? Your claims aren't making any sense to be honest.
Experience. Mine and others. Accumulated over years of playing. Disdain for the Fighter is a well-known fact. Writing up various scenarios where Fighters fail to contribute is hardly the point of this thread. But, short list, they can't meaningfully engage enemies, they are easy to lock down, they fall easily to save-or-lose, they contribute nothing outside combat, they lose fights they should be winning. Specialized fighter builds can solve exactly one of these problems.
Here's how this thread, and every thread like it goes:
1: Fighter sucks at X, Y and Z
2: Fighter can be mediocre at X by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
3: Fighter can be mediocre at Y by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
4: Fighter can be mediocre at Z by devoting ALMOST ALL HIS RESOURCES to the task.
4B: Therefore, Fighters do not suck at X, Y and Z.
5: Argument from House Rules (That usually don't fix a g&~ d@&n thing, because they don't adress what's actually wrong, and don't go anywhere near far enough)
6: Argument from pandering
7: Argument from fluffFighter needs magic items more than anybody else, because he doesn't have any relevant class abilities. He cant deal with a single problem that can't be solved by swinging a sword or shooting an arrow, he needs magic items or caster help for EVERYTHING. Some of us consider that a problem, because we like competent characters who contribute to problem-solving.
That's great but I've been playing for over 30 years and I don't have all these problems that you seem to be having.
The problem really seems to be a lack of understanding the class and how to play it. Also, there seems to be a lack of understanding when it comes to teamwork. Every class needs the help of the team at some point and the fighter is no exception. It seems like anytime the fighter needs help with something the class auto sucks and can't do it's job.
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.
Ever thought that maybe the fighter was designed with magic items in mind? The fighter has always been the one decked out in magical weapons and armour. Why has this suddenly become a problem? Why do you ignore the fact that every other class is dependent on magic items?
Seriously, go and find some real faults and get back with us.
|
|
Why are you worried about a brick wall monster? There are several ways to get past a brick wall monster. Give me some specific examples of these brick wall monsters.I'm not worried about brick wall monsters. In fact, they don't worry me in the least. I copy/pasted TarkXT's list, without looking at it first, then answered each question one by one as if I was playing a ranger. I got to the question of a monster with heinously high AC, and happily jotted my tactic of choice and moved on. Bob cried fowl and tried to imply that such a monster was bad design on the GM's part and shouldn't even be a consideration. I laughed. Boy did I laugh, but I kind of cried a little on the inside too.
A "brick wall" monster is generally a monster that's difficult to kill through physical attacks. The most common brick wall is a creature with exceptionally high AC, making them something of a pain to beat to death in the usual fashion. They can come at high and low levels, and in all kinds of shapes and sizes.
An example of a brick wall might be a troglodyte warrior wearing armor.
+7 AC splint mail, +6 natural, +2 shield, brings you to a 25 AC on a CR 1 creature. Fighting defensively brings it up to 27 AC. Even with an 18 strength, +2 BAB, and Weapon Focus, you're going to need a 20 to hit it. That's an example of a brick wall at low levels. My suggestion was to just kill it with fire (alchemist fire that is), and I kept moving down the list answering questions.Answering the questions on the list wasn't hard, and there was only a couple of times that I would have needed to rely on somebody else, which was fine. However, when Bob was answering the questions, he either complained or gave answers that his presented Fighter wasn't capable of doing, or his answers relied on being a particular build if Fighter with a particular race and particular feats, demonstrating a severe problem that anyone who is new to the game, doesn't have access to the feats (a lot of his stuff wasn't core), and so...
You do realize, dare I say it, that sometimes teamwork is involved and if you do need the help of another teammate it doesn't mean you suck.
Up against an opponent that's hard to hit? Well that's where your cleric or bard will come in handy and throw some buffs your way. What's the point in buffs if classes don't need them? The point is that they do but you seem to forget things like that.
You create situations that are really based on teamwork but if the fighter can't handle it by himself then he sucks as a class.
|
|
The AC for the Trog would actually be 24 not 25 because they have a 9 Dex.
Let's say a 1st level fighter has a +6 to hit so he would have to roll an 18 or better to hit. Now, lets say that nasty teamwork comes into play and you and another person flank the Trog. Well that fighter now needs a 16 or better to hit. Now the Bard begins using Inspire Courage so that becomes a 15 or better to hit. Lastly we have the Cleric throw up a bless which now makes it a 14 or better to hit. While still not the best, it is hittable. Trogs don't run around in armour normally so if you deck them out in armour then you have just upped the CR. Having one Trog in this is okay because it would take a group effort to kill it anyway but if you made 5 Trogs like this against a 1st level party then you will essentially have a TPK.
You still need common sense when building encounters.
That's great but I've been playing for over 30 years and I don't have all these problems that you seem to be having.
Ah, Grognardia. Along with "Being 13 years old", the leading cause of Fighter Infatuation. I remember the D&D and the AD&D Fighter fondly. Those were different days.
The problem really seems to be a lack of understanding the class and how to play it.
My guess is, the problem is on your end. You probably play a great Fighter. But if you're not experiencing the suckitude, your group probably stinks at playing casters. Quick, without cheating, name 3 good 3rd levels spells and 2 good 6th levels spells for combat.
Also, there seems to be a lack of understanding when it comes to teamwork. Every class needs the help of the team at some point and the fighter is no exception.
No, here's the problem. The teamwork only goes one way. The Fighter needs help constantly, but nobody needs the Fighter.
Ever thought that maybe the fighter was designed with magic items in mind? The fighter has always been the one decked out in magical weapons and armour. Why has this suddenly become a problem? Why do you ignore the fact that every other class is dependent on magic items?
Argument from Grognardia. The 3.X assumption is a more-or-less equal GP value in magical gear between characters. And Fighter gear is damn expensive, not to mention all the stuff they _need_ to be able to play _at all_. Your argument is the "Argument from pandering" I mentioned above, i.e., "Fighters don't suck if they get a lot more gear than the other party members".
Other classes have abilities that solve problems. The Fighter needs magic items for EVERYTHING.
You create situations that are really based on teamwork but if the fighter can't handle it by himself then he sucks as a class.
Funny, because that kind of misses the point.
I created situations that a fighter likely could not deal with at the start.
Bob claimed they were contrived instances that do not really do anything to test the class. I saw his point and went forward from there.
So I boiled away the scenarios, boiled away the "extra" stuff tacked on to the fighter (the group, the race, the traits, the items, etc.) and simplified it into an acid test to see what the class can do. The only expectation is "do your best". I did not expect him to deal with all of them as it was not a test to see whether he can or cannot but a test to see whether he can and how efficiently.
Your asking for data while the test for gathering it is sitting right in front of you. Ashiel answered for the ranger (though I don't count the quaal's feather tokens or potions as they're magic items)Bob answered for the fighter. Perhaps it would be good if you helped him? Put that 30 years of experience to use and explain how the fighter handles these scenarios so that they can be used as a baseline for comparison.
The ultimate goal is to get a performance sheet from him and compare it to others of a like mindset as he is to determine where he sits with the group in terms of contributions. It's not a complete list
The AC for the Trog would actually be 24 not 25 because they have a 9 Dex.
I didn't list 9 Dex because the Trog didn't have 9 Dex. It was a Troglodyte Warrior 1. His ability array is adjusted slightly to represent his focus, just as a troglodyte adept will have a slightly different array. That is expected. It just means he had a 12 or 13 Dex instead of 11. You wanted an example of an opponent you might face, and I gave one. A simple NPC classed troglodyte. Nothing fancy. Just the goods, plain and simple.
Let's say a 1st level fighter has a +6 to hit so he would have to roll an 18 or better to hit. Now, lets say that nasty teamwork comes into play and you and another person flank the Trog. Well that fighter now needs a 16 or better to hit. Now the Bard begins using Inspire Courage so that becomes a 15 or better to hit. Lastly we have the Cleric throw up a bless which now makes it a 14 or better to hit. While still not the best, it is hittable. Trogs don't run around in armour normally so if you deck them out in armour then you have just upped the CR. Having one Trog in this is okay because it would take a group effort to kill it anyway but if you made 5 Trogs like this against a 1st level party then you will essentially have a TPK.
Again, AC 25, not 24 (see above). The Troglodyte is CR 1. Not a big challenge for a 2nd level party. I assumed a 2nd level Fighter was fighting with him, and an 18 Strength, and Weapon Focus. That's +7 to hit. +9 if flanking, +10 if under the effects of bless from a cleric and +11 if inspire courage is active from a bard. That means with all of that, you still need at 14 to hit him (flanking, blessed, bardsong, weapon focus, 18 strength, +2 BAB). If the Troglodyte fights defensively then you need a 16 to hit him.
So to have a mediocre chance of landing attacks on the Trog, we need no less than 3 situational buffs (flanking, inspire courage, bless), 1 feat, and +2 BAB. You are relying on three things:
That's sufficient enough evidence that the creature is a brick wall. You are literally having to grasp for every little bonus here and there just to get a 15-20% chance to land a hit on him, as the primary warrior. Is the NPC over the top? Nah. Is he particularly optimized? Heck no (you could probably get his AC to 30 if you wanted to). Is it a reasonable NPC? Of course. Is just whacking it to death a good strategy? Absolutely not.
Which is why I said I would have began alchemist spamming. So his AC is 25, his touch is still 10. Time to start chucking molotovs. I still get all those nice bonuses the cleric and the bard (IF they are there to give them) except instead of bringing me from 5% to 15% hit chance, they are adding more damage and accuracy to ensure I waste no flasks.
Notice I didn't whine about the question being unfair, or anything like that. I didn't complain the question was loaded. I jotted down my answer and I moved on. Now why is it that Bob "Defend the Fighter by Making them Look Bad" Loblaw gets upset and attacks the quiz? Seems fishy to me.
You still need common sense when building encounters.
Which doesn't include tailoring encounters to overlook the weaknesses of the group.
|
The whole argument with fighters not being good doing things by themselves is insane. For the most part, there is no "soloing", no one going 1 on 1 vs a balor, no one going 1 on 1 vs a dragon. RPGs are, for the most part, a team effort. A fighter's job is to fight stuff. When he is build, you decide how you want to fight stuff and move ahead accordingly. In a lot of situations, the biggest limiting factor on how good a class is was how it was built and how it was played, not the mechanics of the class.
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.
Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
|
|
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
If you were getting stuck sitting out of situations then that sounds like either a personal problem or the DM was going out of their way to make sure you had nothing to do.
Now for the Paladin, 'cause this is fun. ^-^
Opening a Locked Wooden Door
Knock it down with a 2 handed weapon.
Opening a Locked and trapped wooden door
Knock it down with a 2 handed reach weapon.
Opening a locked and trapped nigh unbreakable door(with and without nighunbreakable wall)
Differ to ally if possible.
Getting out of a 30ft. dirt pit.
Climb or even thought it doesn't count, feather token (tree).
Getting out of a 30ft. slippery ice pit.
As above (feather token (tree)).
Getting over a wall of force 10ft high without a ceiling? 15ft high? With a ceiling?
Beat on it with Power Attack for a while or find another way.
Crossing a 10ft., 20ft. and 30 ft. wide canyon
Jump, possibly via my mount (who gets a +4 bonus to Acrobatics for every 10ft faster than 30 ft he moves).
Crossing Lava
Resist energy.
Being in Lava
Resist energy.
Killing an invisible enemy.
Hopefully a potion of see invisible or a bag of chalk dust.
Killing a burrowing enemy
Delay until the critter comes up, then beat it to death.
Killing a teleporting enemy.
Hope ally has dimensional anchor. Otherwise, try to chase 'em down with my mount (who is wearing horshoes of the zypher :P).
Killing an enemy with an unbeatable high AC but low touch AC
Alchemical spamming. If immune to the damage, avoid.
Moving through natural hindering terrain.
Mount to try and overcome movement speed issues, or rely on magic items.
Moving through unnatural hindering terrain
As above.
Being underwater
As above, but need method for mount to remain effective in water.
Being on a precarious footing (edge of cliff, along tree branches, etc.)
Hope the few ranks, masterwork tools, and cheap magic items to help my ailing Acrobatics.
A rampaging lynch mob without dealing any HP damage
Diplomacy class skill and Charisma primary stat. If unable to reason, hope that my lay on hands will hold me long enough while I use my superior to-hit modifiers to knock everyone senseless with a -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage, until the crowd disperses.
Being left with an improvised weapon.
Magic weapon, greater magic weapon, or the almighty holy sword, turning my trusty butterknife into a +5 holy butterknife! Have at thee, demons!
Being tripped, disarmed, grappled, sundered.
Mount, locked gauntlet, spiked gauntlet, spare weapons (+5 holy spoon to go with the butterknife).
Magical effects on other party members.
Ka-ching! Lesser restoration, magic weapon, greater magic weapon, bless, protection from chaos/evil, cure spells, bestow grace (this is a really broken spell), bull's strength, owl's wisdom, delay poison, eagle's splendor, remove paralysis, resist energy, dispel magic, remove blindness/deafness, prayer, remove curse, break enchantment, death ward, neutralize poison, restoration, to name some. :P
Magical effects on the terrain(think Black tentacles, entangle and other things that can't be broken down, assume you can't just walk around it).
Got problems here. Need magic items. The cheap horshoes of the zypher would be my first bet, with other magic items being fallbacks.
Magical effects on himself that hinder him (assume failed save).
Dispel magic, break enchantment, restoration and lesser restoration, remove disease, remove paralysis, fear immunity, compulsion immunity, remove blindness/deafness, death ward, neutralize poison, various mercies to remove status conditions, remove curse, and cure spells and lay on hands for HP damage.
That is, if I failed my save with my ChaMod*2 to saving throws due to Divine Grace + Bestow Grace.
Also, all the magic items I mention, I craft myself. As a spellcaster with Spellcraft as a class skill, I can take Craft Wondrous Item as early as 7th level, allowing me to craft all my goodies. By 9th level, I can take Craft Magic Arms & Armor if desired.
If you were getting stuck sitting out of situations then that sounds like either a personal problem or the DM was going out of their way to make sure you had nothing to do.If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
Going out of their way, really? So if the party has decided that they aren't going to be fighting a whole lot, as in a sandbox adventure, the GM needs to start random stuff just to appease the Fighter's player because their class is the most limited of all the classes in terms of effectiveness?
Also, I never suggested that Fighters were soloing situations. I just noted that every time you have to rely on a specific class, that is a strike against the Fighter. What if nobody else is playing the class you need them to play? In your last post you required a cleric, a bard, and at least one party member flanking with the Paladin (who may not be the bard or cleric as they might not be into the melee scene). That's 3 party members without even getting into a dedicated arcanist.
That's making a lot of assumptions not about your character but about your party as well.
Your asking for data while the test for gathering it is sitting right in front of you. Ashiel answered for the ranger (though I don't count the quaal's feather tokens or potions as they're magic items)
Ranger can pickup craft wondrous item by virtue of his class (he's a caster, at 7th level he has a CL 3, qualifying him for the feat). The Feather tokens he can craft himself. I probably wouldn't pickup Brew Potion though, so feel free to ignore those. ;)
|
|
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
A few things I want to ask.
Now when you say that players get stuck sitting out of situations and I'm going to assume that you have experienced this.
How many levels did you play the fighter?
What specific situations were you sitting out of?
What levels did these happen? (Please don't tell me that at 6th level there was a big scene about arcane magic and a religious situation at level 14).
Why didn't you play another class if you had to sit out of situations?
Why didn't you speak to your DM about this?
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
A few things I want to ask.
Now when you say that players get stuck sitting out of situations and I'm going to assume that you have experienced this.
1 - How many levels did you play the fighter?
2 - What specific situations were you sitting out of?
3 - What levels did these happen? (Please don't tell me that at 6th level there was a big scene about arcane magic and a religious situation at level 14).
4 - Why didn't you play another class if you had to sit out of situations?
5 - Why didn't you speak to your DM about this?
Actually, I haven't played a Fighter in over a decade. But I've been in groups with various classes, including Fighter.
I numbered your questions.
1: Levels?
Last time I played was from level 3-14. Too long ago to remember.
2&3: Situations sat out on?
Here's what I've seen other people sit out on: Dozens of social situations (all levels), preparing a Dwarven stronghold for a siege (level 13), fighting flying Ogre magi on a precarious bridge over a chasm (level 9 I think), numerous down-time (while everyone else was using skills, spells and crafting feats to do useful and helpful things; level 4+), dungeon crawl situation with swarms and traps but nothing to attack (level 5).
4: Switch class?
We don't tag-out PCs in the middle of a game. We're pretty dedicated to the narrative.
5: Talk to DM?
It's a constant dialogue; the discussions we're having an the boards is something I bring to the table from time to time - class issues, rule inconsistencies, and so on.
As for the sitting out itself, it's something I point out occasionally (half in jest).
Now, interesting thing here.
Alot of the time, the Fighter doesn't sit out. Why? Because on those times, we spend 10-30 minutes discussing ways that the Fighter can fluff-contribute, or be a sidekick to another PC on something useful, or comedy relief.
That's what I see as a problem - a character, by virtue of the class alone, burning up game time just for the sake of compensation, pity and/or providing a handicap.
Here we have a disconnect. I'm not sure what sort of campaigns you are playing in, or running, but in my group and the groups I have played with, we do not get such meta-game conveniences. Nor do those campaigns require that there be a theme that is consistently adhered to. Invisible enemies is not a theme, it's a situation. It's an obstacle.
In a given campaign, a player may go from fighting goblins to balors, and may go from the green fields to snowy mountain peaks to old towers overlooking the ocean while the party fights ogres and giants in the middle of a ferocious thunderstorm, as a cacophony of battle and howling winds and thunderbolts rage around you. You might traverse through a forest that is filled with giant spiders and ettercaps, only to encounter trolls over the next hillside.
The Age of Worms campaign has a theme. The players learn about this very quickly in the campaign. They learned it during play.
Other campaigns have themes as well, that the players should be aware of before character creation because what they build would be based on knowledge that the character would have. That's what the Player Guides are for from the Adventure Paths.
He can't, really, and that's the problem. Protection from big grapplers, flight ability and protection from mind-affecting low level fightstoppers are just the first few things that come to mind that the Fighter needs magic items for.
Then you don't know how to build an effective fighter. That's not a problem with the class. Also, I'm not saying that he will be uber. I am saying that he can still fight effectively. He will be more effective with gear. Any GM that strips characters of their gear and then pits them against the same encounters as if they still had gear is a bad GM.
It seems like you're arguing from an older edition, where save v. spells was fairly rare, and Fighting Man had excellent saves. Now, Will Save or Lose happens all the time, and Fighters have bad Will saves and Wisdom as a dump stat (a position they share with the other pure martials, Rogues and Barbarians - both of which have the option to shore up this weakness with class abilities).
I'm arguing from Pathfinder. I argued it successfully in DnD as well. The fighters I built in this thread alone do not have bad Will saves. It didn't take much effort to shore it up either. Heck, they both used class abilities to do some of it. I also didn't dump Wisdom. That's the problem here. You seem to be under the misconception that there are specific stats that must be dumped. I don't agree with that at all. There are some stats that the fighter will not want to dump, but I'm willing to bet that an effective fighter can be built with Con, Str, or Dex as a dump stat. I know...I said Strength. With my commitments for work this week, it will be a few days before I post something like that. Note that I am not saying that the fighter should dump 2 or even 3 of those stats. I'm not a fan of dumping more than one stat.
Caster gear makes the caster better. Fighter gear is absolutely required to be allowed to play.
Prove it. Show me a full build, level 1 to 20, of a wizard that doesn't need magic items. I don't take any issue with mundane and alchemical items.
Levitate, Invisibility, Protection from Arrows, and those are just the 1. and 2. level spells.
That's not a build. That's three spells and they are all defensive. Build an adventuring wizard that does not need magic items.
Bob's Fighter relies on a lot of specifics that are beyond just being the Fighter. In fact, it relies on a lot of stuff that is outside the core rules as well. Bob's Fighter also makes excuses. You're making a lot of excuses too. People who fervently defend Fighters always make excuses. It's kind of an interesting thing.
The fighter builds should be complete. If there are feats that would compliment the race chosen and they are still fighter bonus feats, then there shouldn't be an issue. It shows how different races would have different fighters. I wasn't restricted to Core so I didn't stay there. I made no excuses. You are placing restrictions on the builds after they were written and created encounters after the fact to show their weaknesses. That's moving the goalposts. What you haven't done is actually done is do anything evaluate the fighter based on being a fighter. Instead you are evaluating the fighter bases on it not being a ranger or other class. Evaluate the fighter bases on what it was designed to accomplish.
I don't see how anyone has gone out of their way to make the Fighter look bad. You guys are doing that well enough. Instead of actually explaining how a Fighter can react to something by virtue of being a Fighter, specific races are cited, or they keep deferring to other classes which may not be present. Heck, he couldn't even answer what to do when you come up against a "brick wall" monster.
I did answer it. You missed it.
I've seen Bob's Fighter. His skills do not impress me. His Acrobatics are weaksauce. His build is unimpressive for demonstrating why Fighters are nice, as it relies on specific archtypes, specific races, a hefty bit of extra material, his AC is pretty lame for his level, and the feats he cited as how a Fighter overcomes stuff aren't in his build, further illustrating that adapting and learning is pretty difficult for Fighters. Toss in the fact his Acrobatics is a +0 at 19th level, despite that being the #1 fallback in the Fighter's options on TarkXT's acid test when questioned. Yeah, I'm very unimpressed with this.
You looked at the Unbreakable fighter. I said to look at the Tactician. Here it is:
Note that he was not built to be the heavy hitter. He was built to be the one that helps everyone else. He is build more like the Warlord in 4E than a master of damage (which he can still do, but no where near what another archetype can do).
TACTIKALL #20 CR 19
Male Human Fighter (Tactician) 20
LN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +17; Senses Perception +29
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 39, touch 22, flat-footed 30. . (+6 armor, +7 shield, +3 Dex, +4 natural, +3 deflection, +6 dodge)
hp 244 (20d10+120)
Fort +24, Ref +16, Will +22
DR 5/—
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +19/+14/+9/+4 (1d4+22/20/x2) and
. . +5 Dueling, Speed Shortsword +27/+27/+22/+17/+12 (1d6+30/19-20/x3)
Ranged +3 Longbow, Composite (Str +8) +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d8+25/20/x3)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Blades, Light, Weapon Training: Bows, Weapon Training: Hammers
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 24/30, Dex 10/16, Con 14/20, Int 14/20, Wis 18/24, Cha 8/14
Base Atk +20; CMB +31; CMD 52 (54 vs. Disarm54 vs. Feint)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-6, Coordinated Charge, Coordinated Defense, Cosmopolitan: Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Deadly Aim -6/+12, Devastating Strike, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Initiative, Improved Vital Strike, Iron Will, Jaguar Pounce, Lookout, Outflank, Pack Attack, Paired Opportunists, Power Attack -6/+12, Practiced Tactician, Practiced Tactician, Shake It Off, Toughness +20, Vital Strike
Traits Dawnflower Initiate: Knowledge (Religion), Devotee of the Green: Knowledge (Nature)
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +7, Bluff +4, Climb +17, Diplomacy +27, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +4, Fly +24, Handle Animal +15, Heal +9, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (Arcana) +22, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (Local) +22, Knowledge (Nature) +22, Knowledge (Planes) +22, Knowledge (Religion) +22, Linguistics +30, Perception +29, Ride +21, Sense Motive +13, Spellcraft +27, Stealth +4, Survival +13, Swim +11 Modifiers Dawnflower Initiate (Knowledge (Religion))
Languages Aboleth, Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Cyclops, Daemonic, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Ettin, Giant, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Grippli, Halfling, Ignan, Infernal, Orc, Protean, Sahaugin, Shadowtongue, Sylvan, Tengu, Terran, Undercommon
SQ Armor Mastery (Ex), Armor Training 3 (Ex), Battle Insight +5 (8/day) (Ex), Cooperative Combatants (+5 allies) (Ex), Tactician () 13r (6/day) (Ex), Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex)
Combat Gear +3 Longbow, Composite (Str +8), +5 Dueling, Speed Shortsword, +5 Shield, Heavy Steel, Arrows (20), Rhino Hide; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +4, Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots, Winged, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Efficient Quiver (20 @ 3 lbs), Headband of Mental Superiority, +6: Linguistics, Acrobatics, Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism (Cracked), Ioun Stone, Pale Green Prism, Manual of Gainful Exercise, +4, Ring of Protection, +3, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), Tome of Understanding, +5
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Battle Insight +5 (8/day) (Ex) - 0/8
Tactician () 13r (6/day) (Ex) - 0/6
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Mastery (Ex) DR 5/- while wearing armor
Armor Training 3 (Ex) Worn armor -3 check penalty, +3 max DEX.
Battle Insight +5 (8/day) (Ex) As a swift action, grant +5 insight bonus on attack rolls to a single ally until the tactician's next turn.
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Cooperative Combatants (+5 allies) (Ex) When using aid another, you can affect 5 additional allies, and can grant different allies different bonuses.
Coordinated Charge You may charge the same foe when an ally does
Coordinated Defense +2 CMD if you are adjacent to an ally with this feat.
Damage Reduction (5/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Dawnflower Initiate: Knowledge (Religion) You gain a +1 trait bonus to Knowledge (religion) and one of the following: Weapon Proficiency with the scimitar; a +1 trait bonus to DC of channeled energy; or Knowledge (religion) is always a class skill for you.
Deadly Aim -6/+12 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Devastating Strike Deal extra damage when using Vital Strike bonus
Jaguar Pounce Treat charge or spring attack against flat-footed or helpless foes as if you have Improved Critical.
Lookout Act in the surprise rouns if an adjacent ally with this feat can act in the surprise round.
Outflank Flanking bonus increases to +4 if the other flanker also has this feat, and ally gets an AoO if you score a critical hit against the target.
Pack Attack Ally's attack allows you to take a 5-foot step
Paired Opportunists +4 to hit for AoOs if you and an ally with this feat both threaten the target.
Power Attack -6/+12 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Shake It Off Gain +1 to all saving throws per adjacent ally
Tactician () 13r (6/day) (Ex) Grant the use of your Tactical feats to your allies within 30'.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Mastery: Shortsword (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training: Blades, Light +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Light Blades
Weapon Training: Bows +2 (Ex) +2 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Bows
Weapon Training: Hammers +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Hammers
|
|
If fighter's could do everything that some of you have a problem with then the fighter would be the strongest class in the game because it could do it all.Actually, we're saying that the Fighter can contribute to the LEAST number of situations.
What everyone is getting at is exactly what I was saying: The Fighter's player gets stuck sitting out of situations, more than a player of any other class. They sit out because, all other things being equal, their character has nothing meaningful to offer.
A few things I want to ask.
Now when you say that players get stuck sitting out of situations and I'm going to assume that you have experienced this.
1 - How many levels did you play the fighter?
2 - What specific situations were you sitting out of?
3 - What levels did these happen? (Please don't tell me that at 6th level there was a big scene about arcane magic and a religious situation at level 14).
4 - Why didn't you play another class if you had to sit out of situations?
5 - Why didn't you speak to your DM about this?Actually, I haven't played a Fighter in over a decade. But I've been in groups with various classes, including Fighter.
I numbered your questions.
1: Levels?
Last time I played was from level 3-14. Too long ago to remember.2&3: Situations sat out on?
Here's what I've seen other people sit out on: Dozens of social situations (all levels), preparing a Dwarven stronghold for a siege (level 13), fighting flying Ogre magi on a precarious bridge over a chasm (level 9 I think), numerous down-time (while everyone else was using skills, spells and crafting feats to do useful and helpful things; level 4+), dungeon crawl situation with swarms and traps but nothing to attack (level 5).4: Switch class?
We don't tag-out PCs in the middle of a game. We're pretty dedicated to the narrative.5: Talk to DM?
It's a constant dialogue; the discussions we're having an the boards is something I bring to...
Okay well the fact that you haven't played a fighter in over a decade is pretty much where this conversation cries to a halt. This proves that you have not played a Pathfinder Fighter so really you have no viable data to contribute to the conversation.
Why did the fighter have to sit out on social situations? You do realize that role playing isn't just in the dice. You can be sociable without having to roll dice.
Why didn't you just shoot the ogre magi with your bow?
Fighters can craft items as well in Pathfinder.
Why couldn't you attack a swarm? Swing a torch, throw some alchemical fire (You don't have to be an alchemist to get access to the stuff).
Rogues take care of traps (That's a given).
I actually had a half-orc fighter who had the Craft(Crossbow) skill and had some Knowledge(Engineering) who went around in a dwarven stronghold and made a few modifications to the ballista which enabled them to travel a little bit farther and do a little more damage. I talked it over with the DM who allowed me to combine my skill at the two to accomplish this. The dwarf king was so pleased at what I had done that I was proclaimed dwarf friend, I got three dwarves that would travel with me and I got discounts on items I wanted to have made. I made myself useful instead of just looking at my character sheet and giving up because I didn't have "help the dwarves in X way" written down.
|
|
Bob's Fighter relies on a lot of specifics that are beyond just being the Fighter. In fact, it relies on a lot of stuff that is outside the core rules as well. Bob's Fighter also makes excuses. You're making a lot of excuses too. People who fervently defend Fighters always make excuses. It's kind of an interesting thing.The fighter builds should be complete. If there are feats that would compliment the race chosen and they are still fighter bonus feats, then there shouldn't be an issue. It shows how different races would have different fighters. I wasn't restricted to Core so I didn't stay there. I made no excuses. You are placing restrictions on the builds after they were written and created encounters after the fact to show their weaknesses. That's moving the goalposts. What you haven't done is actually done is do anything evaluate the fighter based on being a fighter. Instead you are evaluating the fighter bases on it not being a ranger or other class. Evaluate the fighter bases on what it was designed to accomplish.
I don't see how anyone has gone out of their way to make the Fighter look bad. You guys are doing that well enough. Instead of actually explaining how a Fighter can react to something by virtue of being a Fighter, specific races are cited, or they keep deferring to other classes which may not be present. Heck, he couldn't even answer what to do when you come up against a "brick wall" monster.I did answer it. You missed it.
I've seen Bob's Fighter. His skills do not impress me. His Acrobatics are weaksauce. His build is unimpressive for demonstrating why Fighters are nice, as it relies on specific archtypes, specific races, a hefty bit of extra material, his AC is pretty lame for his level, and the feats he cited as how a Fighter overcomes stuff aren't in his build, further illustrating that adapting and learning is pretty difficult for Fighters. Toss in the fact his Acrobatics is a +0 at 19th level, despite that being the #1 fallback in the...
Bob, I really like your PC format. Are you using a character builder?
|
|
What does ability to roleplay have to do with the base functionality of the fighter class?Why did the fighter have to sit out on social situations? You do realize that role playing isn't just in the dice. You can be sociable without having to roll dice.
Why are you asking me? Malignor included that as part of the reason why fighters are no good. He was saying that because someone he was with was playing a fighter they had to sit out of social situations.
I know that's not true.
What does ability to roleplay have to do with the base functionality of the fighter class?Why did the fighter have to sit out on social situations? You do realize that role playing isn't just in the dice. You can be sociable without having to roll dice.
Why are you asking me? Malignor included that as part of the reason why fighters are no good. He was saying that because someone he was with was playing a fighter they had to sit out of social situations.
I know that's not true.
Well, seeing as how they lack the skill points to spend on social skills, they can't do it well.
|
They also lack things to do during downtime. The wizard's off crafting, a ranger or rogue can be off scouting, the bard, paladin, cleric or sorcerer are sweet-talking someone. What does the fighter do? If you say craft, take your points out of acrobatics, you're out of skill points. Or maybe you dropped perception? Did you leave out knowledge (dungeoneering) with this build?
Fighters tied with clerics and sorcerers when they drew the short stick for skill points, but clerics and sorcerers both bring more to the party. Every other class gets more skill points. Don't bring race into it, because other classes can be human too. Don't bring stats into it, because other classes can boost their intellect, and some actually get mechanical advantages out of it.