There's sort of two directions I think a successful Class/Archetype/PrC can come from. It can be inspired, meaning that it's a concept that people would want to play based on flavor, or which is a pretty central part of fantasy that's not well-represented in the existing list. It can also be inspiring - an interesting set of mechanics with some fluff on there that invites exploration. (Many great classes have both.) A great example of inspiring classes is the 3.5 Tome of Battle classes. I don't think anyone was thinking "I wish there was a way to play a character that ran around doing sword stuff", but the mechanics of the ToB classes are sufficiently compelling that they drew lots of people in. (It is important that a concept remains resonant; a lot of people didn't really bother looking too hard at the mechanically fascinating but flavorfully alien Incarnum material because seriously what the heck is all this stuff.)
Anyway, I think that a lot of Pathfinder has for growth - if growth is desired - lies in the direction of "inspiring" rather than "inspired" classes. There's just not that many bases that PF has yet to cover flavorfully. (In addition to things people have already suggested, I'd throw specialist spellcasters in there.) Divergent mechanical systems aren't easy. They add a disproportionate amount of complexity to the game, can make character building less modular and more linear, can be hard to position into an existing system in a balanced way (something that, unlike 3.5, PF can legitimately claim to consider a priority), and have the tendency to get left in the dust when there's just not room to support them all in every splatbook.
I would like to see a spontaneous druid class, so that we have prepared/spontaneous casters for each major type (wizard/cleric/druid vs sorcerer/oracle/?????).
I would also like to see some more archetypes that allow non-skill monkey classes to become skill monkeys (IE: Give up something and have a fighter with 6+INT skills), such as Fighter, Paladin, Sorcerer, Wizard, etc. If not, I'd like to see a skilled combat type (Full BAB, 6+ Skills) base class.
a factotum/master of masks/chamealeon would be nice to finish the base classes. Something that can borrow from everyone, but either has to choose at the beginning of the day or only X times per day.
Anything else can be made into archetypes I think.
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Here's some gaps I feel could be shored up by a full base class (and not just an extra archetype or two).
Mystic Theurge: That's right, do your divine/arcane spellcasting from day one. Take the route the Magus offered of a unique ability driven single class version of the Eldritch Knight, and make a unique ability driven single class version of the Mystic Theurge.
And I'm not just talking about a mixed spell list (Witch, Bard, etc).
I mean the class is supposed to be an academic who is mixing religion and arcane arts. He prays for some of his spells, and studies some others. Give him some really neat abilities to mix those spell types together and make him a full spell caster from day one.
Maybe even mix up the casting methods.. some spells he has to memorize from a fixed list (typical for divine), others he can memorize from a spellbook (typical for arcane), and yet others he can cast anytime spontaneously (a shortlist of either arcane or divine!).
Shapeshifter: The reason this needs to be a base class is because of two reasons. First, he needs to be able to feel like a shapeshifter right out of the gate. Second, he needs to be able to have archetypes for the various different kinds of shifters.
I can think of 4 types off the top of my head:
1. Offspring of a Doppleganger. Focused on sneaking and infiltration stuff, detect thoughts, masking alignment, gaining all proficiencies, etc. Sort of how the Ranger is, only more spy-oriented.
2. A lycanthrope (or therianthrope if you prefer). Focusing on bestial changes, possibly the option for 3 forms, choosing a specific animal (or maybe even a couple, allowing other modes of travel and sneaking).
3. Descendants of Oni (or Ogre Mages, Rakshasa, etc). More of a "Creepy" factor, changes coming from a spirit or possession, very likely battle hardy (Regeneration or DR, etc).
4. Purely Fey or Nature based. Changing into animals wholly (not partially like the lycanthrope), or even plants, fish, elementals?, etc.
Seriously... with at least this many different ideas for a shapeshifter class, it really deserves it's own base class to pull archetypes from. I'd imagine the base class being a simple "change into anything, but not quite as focused as each of those archetypes".
I'd even allow some of the changes to be Ex based, taking longer to pull off, and maybe cause damage when it happens.
Just to make it even wackier, maybe base some of the changes on the Evolutions mechanic the summoner gets. It'd really need to be fleshed out better though to accommodate more than just a "secondary bruiser character" the current evolutions are focused on.
Factotum: While the idea of a class that can "do a little bit of everything" sounds a lot like a slightly modified Bard, there's the 3.5e version that can actually perform other classes abilities.
I always felt this class seemed similar to the Mime class in Final Fantasy games (although the mime literally can only duplicate others present... now there's a Bard archetype waiting to happen).
Make it so they can pick and choose abilities from an ever expanding list at the beginning of each day (I'm a mage today!), and add a few "pulling a trick out of his butt", on-the-fly options (maybe based on watching an ally perform an ability) and you've got yourself a base class.
I'd imagine Use Magic Device would be a key factor of this class.
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Those are the base classes I can think of off the top of my head. I'd say they'd make great additions for an Advanced Player's Guide II book; all three are fairly advanced in play.. mixing three styles of casting, mixing around evolutions, or just mixing class abilities in general.
I would love more... I don't know that you can have too many.
As for what... well, I would have to leave that to the creativity of the designers. Though a good place to start looking would be at prestige classes... which are not coverable by archetypes nor fit with the world specific model of prestige classes that Paizo seems to be going for and then go from there.
Sean
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Theres a couple of 'Inventor' or 'Gadgeteer' 3pp ideas knocking around. Maybe a class that takes advantage of the frontier tech being developed in Alkenster and Quantium, or the Alien tech harvested from Numeria. Something that masters the Craft feats and that allows you to make stuff quicker, cheaper and better. A talent tree based around different types of things like Golems or other constructs would also be fun. A clockwork/steam-powered companion or familiar maybe?
Finally towards later levels they'd maybe get some sort of 'prototype' or 'alien' weapon profficiencies for wielding tech like the Gnome weapons or the kinds of tech hinted at in the Mi-Go article in Carrion Crown.
I've been considering knocking something like that around for quite a while now. The summoner's eidolon would be the basis for my "Clank", with a few other special abilities. It would also introduce a new skill, Craft Clockword/Steam Device. One thing I would really try to do is seperate the class from magic...I want to to be obvious that the class is based in technology, not a re-skinned magic.
I've been considering knocking something like that around for quite a while now. The summoner's eidolon would be the basis for my "Clank", with a few other special abilities. It would also introduce a new skill, Craft Clockword/Steam Device. One thing I would really try to do is seperate the class from magic...I want to to be obvious that the class is based in technology, not a re-skinned magic.Theres a couple of 'Inventor' or 'Gadgeteer' 3pp ideas knocking around. Maybe a class that takes advantage of the frontier tech being developed in Alkenster and Quantium, or the Alien tech harvested from Numeria. Something that masters the Craft feats and that allows you to make stuff quicker, cheaper and better. A talent tree based around different types of things like Golems or other constructs would also be fun. A clockwork/steam-powered companion or familiar maybe?
Finally towards later levels they'd maybe get some sort of 'prototype' or 'alien' weapon profficiencies for wielding tech like the Gnome weapons or the kinds of tech hinted at in the Mi-Go article in Carrion Crown.
Agreed. I'm a fan of Deadlands but even in that system the Steampunk Inventor is just a reskinned Mage as you say.
BTW there's a feat in 'summoners call' that lefts you make clockwork summons. Also skeletal summoner feat from UM does something similar. After reading bout the archetype in inner sea magic that turns your eidolon/summons to fey, thus a similar archetype that taps into the realm of the Axiomites could be achieved. A rogue, Wizard or Alchemist archetype could also pull this trick (some feats and archetypes already attempt this).But a class solely dedicated to this meme would be interesting. I always liked the potential of the Artificer in 3.5, and I' very curious to see if Paizo could fill this niche.
I do especially like the idea of a buildable 'clockwork companion'. Cos what adventurer wouldn't want a mechanical Dog?
I don't think that a Shapeshifting or spontaneous Druid have anything that archetypes couldn't accomplish. You could make the same case for an 'inventor' class, but at least there's more untapped potential there. Especially in the Golarion setting.
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One of the things that I would do with the clockwork companion is allow the owner to reconfigure it if he had at least a full day of downtime, in essense tearing it down and rebuilding it in a new configuration.
I still can't come up with a name for the class that I like. Well, unless I do even more blatant stealing from Genius Girl that I intend to and call them "Spark".
I'm also going to give them Tesla pistols, akin to Warehouse 13. Because...why the hell not?
Add a Martial Artist base class. It should be completely separate from the monk class and should be based off Wuxia not a westernized Shoalin like the monk.
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a factotum/master of masks/chamealeon would be nice to finish the base classes. Something that can borrow from everyone, but either has to choose at the beginning of the day or only X times per day.
Anything else can be made into archetypes I think.
Agreed. I think we have few too many classes. Samurai, Ninja, Antipaladin should be Archtypes. However, I can picture several flavors of shapechanger archtypes/bloodlines that could be worked into Bard/Sorcerer/Rogue or which already exist (synthesist summoner, reinterpreting some of the fluff).
I still can't come up with a name for the class that I like. Well, unless I do even more blatant stealing from Genius Girl that I intend to and call them "Spark".
Love that comic. I know what you mean about the name. I had a class somewhat like that in a game I ran. I couldn't decide if I wanted to call them a Tinker, Engineer, or Technologist. I went with the latter, but always felt like I should have used tinker. Admittedly, there would have been that element of theft from Ultima...
Anyway, it doesn't matter to me if they add anymore classes. Lord knows, I want them to keep making money, and creating new material is one way open to them. Honestly though, I don't think any of the new classes have ever really added anything that I wanted to see at my table come game night. I reallize that I'm a bit of a stick in the mud, but if you can't come up with a chracter concept based on the ideas in the core rulebook, you're really not trying hard enough. For example, why do we need a swashbuckler? There is fighter, there is rogue, and there is multiclassing. As I said though, go ahead and publish, no one else should lose out just because I'm a traditionalist.
- Dexterity-based acrobatic Swashbuckler class, using dexterity to damage instead of strength.
- Non-lawful restricted Martial Artist base class, with variable powers via style bonus feats and class features. Preferably without the MAD problem of the Monk and without its to hit/damage issues, either.
Martial adepts. I want my sword sage.
No, We have enough base classes.
As you add each one, the game balance gets harder and harder to do. Each new option needs to get balanced against all the other classes, individually and in combination.
I don't think anyone intended that the strongest character in the game be some kind of alchemist barbarian summoner, but there you go.
More of this is going to make the game worse.
No, We have enough base classes.
As you add each one, the game balance gets harder and harder to do. Each new option needs to get balanced against all the other classes, individually and in combination.
I don't think anyone intended that the strongest character in the game be some kind of alchemist barbarian summoner, but there you go.
More of this is going to make the game worse.
The same could be said even if we only take the eleven base classes into account. But here we are, with nine new base classes out. One or two more won't hurt anymore than those nine did.
I think we all know Oracle=Favored Soul concept, only done right. Artificer would be called technologist or something similar.I'd like to see Paizo's take on the Artificer and Factotom base classes.Paizo on the other hand would rather not have a visit from WOTC's legal staff.
If 'Artificer', 'Sage' and 'Inventor' are off limits...
I like Daroob's suggestions of 'Engineer' and 'Technologist'.
But would also suggest'Gadgeteer', 'Tinkerer', 'Futurist', 'Artisan', 'Polymath', 'Architect', 'Gizmologist', 'Mechanic', 'Mechanomancer' or 'Technomancer' (this being my fav choice)
All of the above could be architypes, prestige classes, feats, class features etc.
The Artificer in 3.5 just had a bonus pool of xp to craft from, bonus feats and skill bonuses. The Inventor of 3pp or 'Mad Scientist' of Savage worlds crafts magic effects into portable devices.
I like the idea of a Clockwork Companion you can constantly tinker with. Using a hybrid of the eidolon and craft rules for that.
Alternatively a mechanical suit of armor that takes this idea to its logical conclusion (just don't call it Iron Man).
Plenty of Paizo and 3PP feats that would fit this meme.
A talent tree and series of feats that let you do stuff like crafting things in less time, reverse engineering other constucts, bonus damage to constructs, perhaps a class feature that even lets you reprogram other constructs.
Hell the idea of 'Programming' as a concept in other rpg's could add a new twist to the clockwork companions.
Eventually having them go from Int 0 to Sentience.
Talents and modifications revolving around 'winding' or 'fueling' your invention, eventually leading up to binding them with a Soul or Elemental.
You'd have to give them spellcasting for the craft prerequisites (unless you use a class feature to compensate), but such a Spell list would have to be very focussed like the Summoners.
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It has been said a few times in the thread, and I look forward to KQ's take on it, but I also vote for Shaman.
Honestly though I want something in line with the Shaman from Everquest. 3/4 BAB, armor restricted, pet class, that utilizes hex type debuffs and divine style party buffs, but nothing over the top in any category, and far from powerful in their own right but nice to have next to you in a fight.
edit- optional Class or as an archetype; not as a primary focus of an Ultimate (ie Magus etc)
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No, We have enough base classes.
As you add each one, the game balance gets harder and harder to do. Each new option needs to get balanced against all the other classes, individually and in combination.
While we're at it, we should stop publishing new feats and spells. As you add each new option, you have to balance it against all the other options, individually and in combination.
While we're at it, we should stop publishing new feats and spells. As you add each new option, you have to balance it against all the other options, individually and in combination.No, We have enough base classes.
As you add each one, the game balance gets harder and harder to do. Each new option needs to get balanced against all the other classes, individually and in combination.
Yeah! Who needs New things anyways?
The same could be said even if we only take the eleven base classes into account. But here we are, with nine new base classes out. One or two more won't hurt anymore than those nine did.No, We have enough base classes.
As you add each one, the game balance gets harder and harder to do. Each new option needs to get balanced against all the other classes, individually and in combination.
I don't think anyone intended that the strongest character in the game be some kind of alchemist barbarian summoner, but there you go.
More of this is going to make the game worse.
The eleven core base classes were too many, and I agree the nine additional base classes did hurt the game, so why hurt it further with more?
The answer is of course because the masses want them and will pay money for them.
It was my impression that archetypes were meant to satisfy our craving for more base classes, and give us better options for customizing our characters.
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Concerning Shamans, I conceed there is a niche for a spontaneous druid-like caster, but the fact that we're comparing it to a druid suggests it should be an archetype.
Same goes for Oracles and Sorcerers.
They should publish sourcebooks with nothing but pretty pictures and blank spaces to write in!
Apparently the only things people will buy anymore are new feats and base classes.
Definitely would like to see more martial love, though the main issue I see is that most of the ideas I picture would be better served as archetypes or feat chains that carry the eventual effect desired, somwewhat how FantasyCraft handles certain racial feat development.
One of the monk archetypes from APG comes to mind, I think it's Monk of the Four Winds, where they take on additional traits as they advance? I'm looking at playing with the concept to run a game in the spirit of Asura's Wrath. The Avatar's Handbook will be cribbed from as well.
All of the variant classes for Nyambé fit as archetypes-to-alternate-class variants.
As far as character concepts go, I can't think of a martial theme that isn't already covered by an existing class.
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Agreed. I think we have few too many classes. Samurai, Ninja, Antipaladin should be Archtypes. However, I can picture several flavors of shapechanger archtypes/bloodlines that could be worked into Bard/Sorcerer/Rogue or which already exist (synthesist summoner, reinterpreting some of the fluff).a factotum/master of masks/chamealeon would be nice to finish the base classes. Something that can borrow from everyone, but either has to choose at the beginning of the day or only X times per day.
Anything else can be made into archetypes I think.
Samurai, Ninja and Antipaladin already *are* archetypes (effectively). They are Alt Classes, which basically means "Yeah, this is basically an archetype, but we rewrote it because we changed a lot of stuff." You cannot be Rogue 1/Ninja 1 because they're the same class.
As for shapeshifter, I like the argument of "If I can think of more than a handful of archetypes for it, it should be a base class."
Base: Lots of different forms, probably "as the spell" for various shapes, but as Su abilities.
Single-Form Focused Archetypes: A whole set of archetypes, each focused on imitating a particular creature (such as a DragonShaper).
Doppleganger Archetype: Less powerful forms, but can imitate any humanoid perfectly and gets abilities related to doing so. A cross between a doppleganger (the race) and a master spy (the class), to some extent. Since Doppleganger is assumed unplayable, and master spy is HEAVILY specialized, this archetype would still fill a niche.
Wild Shaper: Only knows a couple of base forms, but gets to pick pieces from various other forms to tack on, creating something that never existed. Like a dragon that has tentacles instead of wings. Possibly capable of a free-action partial shift that lets them swap out a couple natural attacks without fully changing form.
Amorphic Shaper: A shapeshifter that slowly becomes an ooze-like creature. Can only shape into creatures of the same size category, but maintains the ooze-like traits while doing so.
The answer depends entirely on the ideas for new classes.
If they can surprise me with something original that fills a need in the lineup for character types, then absolutely. I do not currently believe that's possible, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
The Knave
mechanical niche: Scene editing/Probablity ManipulationConcept niche: the divine fool.
The see's concepts such as proprity, decency and moderation, for the lies they are. Tools of those who would enslave us use to keep us trapped. The knave abandons such dull paths, burying themselves in excess to gain ecstatic revelation, and mystic power. They take causality, chance and fate by the unmentionables and lead the world a merry dance.
Example of a knave in combat:
The group rolls initiative and look over the battle map, the knave seeing he hasn't rolled very well chuckles and has himself a re-roll. Now on of the first to act, he uses a twist of fate to delay the arrivel to the battle of one of the the groups opponents, thanks to them having been caught short in the minutes before the characters arrive. The combat commences and the knave is caught between two flanking opponents, and with another twist of fate and martial skill, the knave throws himself clear as the thugs lunge for him, stabbing one another instead...
Is is 'needed', probably not, but I am not sure you 'need' the vast majority of the classes in the game. would it be hellafun to play? HELLL YESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Thing missing that should probably be best covered by a new class or alternate class rather than a prestige class or archetype:
- A tinkerer, crafter and or artficer type (maybe with a summoner whos eidolon is clockwork like, but being charisma based kinda ruins the feel)
- A Shapeshifter based class (most likely as a barabarian alternate class)
Thing that are already covered by archetypes or builds:
- Non-wuxia martial artist (Martial artist, close enough)
- Ironman: magus with craft construct and the armor construct option.
- Etc
Lets make this list bigger so we can evaluate the gaps and their existence.
Humbly,
Yawar
Knave sounds like a Bard or Rogue archetype but with enough flavour to make it work. I had me a vision of a Manic Jester dancing his foes and cackling. I Support this as an Alt Class for Bard but as for full base class...not so much.
Still much more interesting than some of the Archetypes suggested. Hell even the 'Technomancer' idea I'm proposing could be an Alt Alchemist or Wizard. Wonder if the thing we seem to be getting at is that we want more archetypes and alt classes, but maybe there truly isn't a 'unique' and 'unfilled' niche left for base classes.
I do think the martial shapeshifter isn't really covered. The Ranger Archetype lets you get some bonuses with shapeshifting fluff, but can't actually become the animal until level 20.
I'd toyed with the idea of giving a ranger the full Wild shape progression, starting at first level. Trading off weapon & armor proficiences, the animal companion and maybe spells for that.
I've found the 'shifter'/natural weapon combat style builds for the ranger handy for npc monsters and shapeshifters, but I haven't really seen a player character take advantage of this. This seemed to me like an example of the many 'npc archetypes' that are targetted at GM's.
I agree with you, StabbityDoom. An archtype that let's the Shapeshifter shifts others instead could be interesting.
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In your mind perhaps. I see very little resemblance beyond the fact that they're spontaneous casters. That's a bit of a jump to say that one is cribbed off of the other.I think we all know Oracle=Favored Soul concept, only done right. Artificer would be called technologist or something similar.I'd like to see Paizo's take on the Artificer and Factotom base classes.Paizo on the other hand would rather not have a visit from WOTC's legal staff.
I think both were shooting for a 'god is talking to me' shamanistic/prophet/mystic (god/spirits/divine wisdom/whatever interpreted very broadly here)viewpoint as opposed to cleric, offical of the church clerical viewpoint. I think Favored Soul did a poor job of in part because it was a first attempt, in part because I think some people in our society (including game designers) have a hard time thinking in those terms because we tend to think of such people as crazy.
Oracle gets closer, though is not perfect.
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And I agree with W E Ray and Jeff de Luna, I want an Errol Flynn style swashbuckler. Such as this: buckle me swash, matey
Master Arminas
Commoner 1, no proficiency with any sword. High charisma with skill points in Bluff and Perform: Bad Swordfighting. Done.
I'm thinking the 'Shapeshifter' could stand on its own if it seemed less like a one-trick pony. I'm not saying the ideas discussed here indicate that (oh the contrary), I'm just thinking that a player picks up a book with this in there gonna think 'how is this different from a druid?'
Some ideas for archetypes/class features:
I'd suggest merging the before mentioned 'Oracle/Sorceror-like spell casting with the druid list'.
Or alternatively add in a spell-like ability for summon natures ally akin to the Summoner. I also like the idea of borrowing from the evolutions list to customize a shifted form or even adopt aspects of it at later levels.
Getting a choice of a pool of bonus feats like a fighter than give you stuff like- improved natural weapon or that druid one that lets you spellcast in wildshaped form.
Again optional, is a Talent tree system like the Barbarian that gives various buffs, bonuses etc whilst 'shifting' and possibly use this system to unlock new forms.
Final idea that borrows from a class is a Ranger esque 'Favored form', that lets you 'shift' into other critters but give you various bonuses for being in a form you use often.
If anyones read the Dresden files, I'm getting a vibe similar to a character in that series called Injun Joe aka 'Dances with Wind'. In one book he has a shapeshifting fight with a Skinwalker which is whats springing to mind as an interesting possibility of this archetype. Perhaps opening up a feat/talent tree on specifically fighting creatures by adopting forms that have an 'spiritually perceived' advantage over them. Say you were fighting a giant snake and changed into a mongoose, wouldn't make sense for a mongoose to eat it but perhaps gain some sort of totemic/spiritual buff from being a natural enemy of the snake. Kinda like a changeable favored enemy.
Some class feature or archetype that let this class use or mimic the abilities of monsters might be fun as well. Perhaps even replacing spellcasting with 'ability slots' for copying supernatural abilities. Like the Blue magic from the Final Fantasy series. Though this would take a lot of mechanical juggery pokery to balance unless you limited to spell-like abilities.(now before someone derails the thread, I don't mean the other Blue magic...)
As a Final point. I don't like the name 'Shapeshifter' or 'Shifter' cos they already refer to existing rules and archetypes. 'Shaman' would be better. but theres a few 3pp with that name. 'Witchdoctor' is a theme used by the Oracular Wendo mystery (though I'd like to see more in that vein), but the names still free. Tho that one sounds more like a Witch or Wizard Archetype in the spirit of the Wendifa. 'Spirit shaman' and 'Wild mage' are WoTC content so I expect those names are out? 'Medicine Man' comes close but I don't like the idea of a base class with a two word name. 'Naturalist' has unfortunate connotations. 'Voodooist', 'Hoodooist', 'Houngan' and such move father away from the theme. 'Animagus' is a blatant HP rippoff.
How about the 'Animus'?
No more base classes; but I'm open to many archetypes and alternate classes.
@Oggron: How about Lycaon or Metamorph?
Nice, but...
Edit: 'Lycan' implies excusive wolf-shifting and is synonomous with 'werewolf'. 'Therianthrope' might be more accurate but its a mouthful.
'Metamorph' is functional, but It sounds more like a feat tree.
Any other suggestions guys?
Thinking now, I liked that we got the magus which is like a base 20 Eldritch Knight. I would definitely like the same thing with the Mystic Theruge. A base 20 arcane/divine caster. Would be interesting.
You might want to check out the Super Genius Games Magus can mix arcane and divine casting effectively. Super Genius Games has made me not overly care about what paizo does with base classes, as 3rd party publishers supply whatever paizo doesnt. In fact after the upcoming super genius chronomancer and draconomancer I dont know that there is a whole lot I still want in terms of classes. They already have a wide array of options there.
Nice, but...
Edit: 'Lycan' implies excusive wolf-shifting and is synonomous with 'werewolf'. 'Therianthrope' might be more accurate but its a mouthful.
'Metamorph' is functional, but It sounds more like a feat tree.Any other suggestions guys?
Shape-shifting really seems more like a specialty than a base class. It really seems like prestige class/homebrew territory. That said, a 'Shaman' that is a spontaneous version of a magus with a druid-esque spell list and shape shifting instead of an arcane pool would be the best addition, imo.
