My character is a lvl 11 Fey bloodline Sorcerer; what are my options for penetrating the concealment of someone with high stealth? The stealth character in question is a combination barb/rogue/shadow dancer, also 11th level, who has enough bonuses to make it pretty much impossible for him to be detected with Perception rolls - I think the DC to detect him when he's stealthed is 35-40 if my memory serves me. Solutions need to be as non-violent as possible. Any ideas?
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A torch/sunrod/everburning torch/light spell/Daylight spell. Shadowdancers can only HIPS within 10' of dim light. Since all of those have at least 20' of bright light, they can't hide within 10' of you. Now, if he's attacking from ranged, see Fenris' post. Detect Magic might be useful too, if you concentrate long enough, 11th level chars tend to have plenty of magic items/auras to pick up on...
Locate object to find his sword, dagger, bow, nose ring, if you don't know where he started. Web on the general area where he is located. If he insists on hiding while stuck in the web light it on fire. I doubt the fire will hurt him very much and a flaming shadow dancer is very easy to find.
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Summon something with scent/blindsense/blindsight/tremmorsense/etc.
Beast Shape III or IV. (i.e. pipedreamsam's idea, except with transforming yourself into what you need instead of summoning it. You can directly pinpoint his location yourself this way)
Turn into something with Tremorsense using Beast Shape IV and your problem is essentially solved as soon as your stealthy enemy gets close enough.
If Beast Shape IV is too high level (won't be in 1 more level since you said 11th, but meh), Beast Shape III can at least offer you something with Blindsense, which is also able to pinpoint enemies even if you can't see them.
And though it can't pinpoint, Scent is at least good for knowing he's close.
Combine that with some skill check buffs on yourself. Set an "alarm" so you know when to cast them.
Contingency + pick one of the above suggestions.
Thanks for all the advice. Unfortunately of all the spells mentioned I only have Light so I'm going to have to make that work. I only need to see him enough to target him with a spell because I can handle him from there.
For the curious, here's what's driving this: He's one of the party members, but he has an intelligent sword that can sometimes control his actions, which is bad because his will save is terrible. A couple of sessions ago the sword successfully covinced him that the party wizard was evil so he tried to kill him [the wizard]. It was just me, the wizard, and the stealthy and I couldn't figure out any way to see through his stealth enough to target him with a spell. So in the event he gets charmed/controlled again, I'd like to be able to figure out a way to neutralize him before he kills someone.
Get some scrolls. Or wands.
- Get some scrolls
- Tell your wizard to buy and memorize some more appropriate spells
- Boost the shadowdancer's will save
- Get a dumber sword
"Hey, you just tried to kill me!"
"Dude, wasn't me. Was the sword."
"I don't give a crap! I almost died!"
"Nothing I can do."
"Get rid of the sword."
"Nope, it's too good of a sword."
"You tried to kill me!"
"Stop your whining."
Hm.... I think if I were playing that wizard, that sword might just disappear one night...
"Hey, you just tried to kill me!"
"Dude, wasn't me. Was the sword."
"I don't give a crap! I almost died!"
"Nothing I can do."
"Get rid of the sword."
"Nope, it's too good of a sword."
"You tried to kill me!"
"Stop your whining."Hm.... I think if I were playing that wizard, that sword might just disappear one night...
The worst part is that he doesn't even use the sword. It was just decided he should hold onto it for safekeeping until we could find a more permanent way of disposing of it.
Could someone else hold onto the sword? Someone with a better will save?
My character is a lvl 11 Fey bloodline Sorcerer; what are my options for penetrating the concealment of someone with high stealth? The stealth character in question is a combination barb/rogue/shadow dancer, also 11th level, who has enough bonuses to make it pretty much impossible for him to be detected with Perception rolls - I think the DC to detect him when he's stealthed is 35-40 if my memory serves me. Solutions need to be as non-violent as possible. Any ideas?
Almost no one believes me when I say Arcane->familiar is a fantastic option (:
Rat CR 1/4
XP 100
N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +1
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
Having a stealth check of 1000 won't help against this ability.
give him something of yours or the wizards, or place an arcane mark on the sword, his shirt, or something he'll always have on him.
then when he stealths you locate the aura, arcane mark or item and drop black tentacles all over the area.
Or both you and the wizard turn invisible yourselves.
I don't know how much your GM is up for custom magic items, but if anyone has craft wonderous item you could have all sorts of fun making an amulet of lighting up and grappling the wearer. Make him wear it as long as he has the sword, so when it acts up you just say the command word and he gets tied up and lights up like a flare.
Again, thanks for the suggestions. It's now become clear to me that I should just figure out a way to get that damn sword away from him. I don't know if I can convince the party to let someone else hold on to it, so I may just have to steal it from him and dispose of it somewhere.
It always pisses me off that people think that Scent automatically trumps stealth.
The rule says no such thing, save for a bit of flavor text. Nowhere in the ability does it say that it IGNORES Stealth.
This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source’s location.
A creature with the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom (or Survival) check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10 (no matter what kind of surface holds the scent). This DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Survival skill. creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Would someone be so kind as to point out WHICH part of that rule even mentions the Stealth skill? The only things which I could see this negating are Invisibility and Silence.
Now for Blindsight, things are different, because the rule actually mentions something that Stealth depends on.
This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using non-visual...
The question I would have is, does stealth actually block your scent? The short text of the skill mentions hiding and moving silently... The rest of the text doesnt mention anything about masking scent. The only part I see of any relavance is the "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth." line.
The real world examples of preventing stealth that you mentioned both involve the person activily masking thier scent in some fashion. I would argue that you need to actively mask your scent in some manner before you could fool a creature with the scent ability. Additionaly, other boosts to stealth certainly weren't designed with masking scent in mind.. I would not give a +40 to someone with ivisibility vs someone with scent.
*as a side note.. Mythbusters had an episode that debunked the spices masking trails myth.. The bloodhound still found Adam.
*Also, as an avid deer hunter myself, you typically put a non-threatening preadator (like fox) urine on your boots, not deer urine. You put the deer urine at the spot you set up to hunt to attract the deer... But I get your point :)
It always pisses me off that people think that Scent automatically trumps stealth.
The rule says no such thing, save for a bit of flavor text. Nowhere in the ability does it say that it IGNORES Stealth.
And nowhere in the text does it say that there is a roll of any sort to detect someone within 30 feet, nor is there a roll to note their direction, and once within 5 feet there is no roll to pinpoint their location. There is no roll, they just do it.
________________________________________________________________________You still need to make clear how someone/thing with Scent can detect a scent (DC? Automatic?)and how and if Stealth affects that.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Designer): If it is within range, it is automatic. Stealth doesn't help you when going up against a creature that has scent. That's the long and short of it.
Pinpointing them does not remove concealment. It only gives the square away so they are still hidden, but it does make it possible to use glitterdust or faire(probably spelled wrong) fire to negate their concealment.
Pinpointing them does not remove concealment. It only gives the square away so they are still hidden, but it does make it possible to use glitterdust or faire(probably spelled wrong) fire to negate their concealment.
But you need cover or concealment to hide. If you know what square they're in, its very likely that you can move next to them and remove all the concealment/concealment between you
Well, that link clinches it. As retarded as that ruling is, it is the rules.
I still might allow a player to actively mask his scent.. Sure the creature with the scent ability would smell something, but if he thinks its a normal smell for the area he's in then he would ignore it.. Perhaps a bluff check would be used? Survival? I don't know. never had this come up before.
A torch/sunrod/everburning torch/light spell/Daylight spell. Shadowdancers can only HIPS within 10' of dim light. Since all of those have at least 20' of bright light, they can't hide within 10' of you. Now, if he's attacking from ranged, see Fenris' post. Detect Magic might be useful too, if you concentrate long enough, 11th level chars tend to have plenty of magic items/auras to pick up on...
Light creates shadows so I unless the room has nothing to shade light from your source this won't work.
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A torch/sunrod/everburning torch/light spell/Daylight spell. Shadowdancers can only HIPS within 10' of dim light. Since all of those have at least 20' of bright light, they can't hide within 10' of you. Now, if he's attacking from ranged, see Fenris' post. Detect Magic might be useful too, if you concentrate long enough, 11th level chars tend to have plenty of magic items/auras to pick up on...Light creates shadows so I unless the room has nothing to shade light from your source this won't work.
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly.
Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and
light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright
light. A creature can’t use Stealth in an area of bright light
unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light
include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of
a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but
characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not
take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a
forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and
inside the area of a light spell.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat.
Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss
chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the
ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of
dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas
of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the
sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet
from a torch.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth
skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10
feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself
from view in the open without anything to actually hide
behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Just because there are shadows, doesn't mean it counts as an area of dim light. These are specific terms in the CRB. Since the SD can HIPS within 10' of dim light, he can be 15-20 from a torch and still count as being hidden, however once he gets within 10' of the torch, he no longer has the ability to HIPS.
Since the SD can HIPS within 10' of dim light, he can be 15-20 from a torch and still count as being hidden, however once he gets within 10' of the torch, he no longer has the ability to HIPS.
This. Dem HIPS don't lie.
Permanent Detect Magic, or arcane sight. You won't see the stealther per se... but you will see the tell-tale aura of magic walking about.
Upon closer inspection, yes, you are not noticed (this means you retain the hidden condition) until they are within 5 feet of you, so Sniping is a go. If you're more then 5 feet above their head, they're screwed.
Yep, they can take a move action to determine your direction, but they aren't uncovered until the 5' rule.
In one campaign I play in I use alter self (bugbear) to give me scent. If I ever detect a scent of a stealthed (invisible) creature, I plan on using my move action to determine direction, then cast glitterdust so that my 20' radius ends 5' in front of me.. That covers all of scents 30' radius minus the 5' that you would have known he was there anyway, and the 5' at the back. If he doesn't glow, then you know he was at the last 5'. Target that square with another glitterdust (got a wand) and poof, target found.. they can only move 15' while stealthed usually.
Pinpointing them does not remove concealment. It only gives the square away so they are still hidden, but it does make it possible to use glitterdust or faire(probably spelled wrong) fire to negate their concealment.But you need cover or concealment to hide. If you know what square they're in, its very likely that you can move next to them and remove all the concealment/concealment between you
True, but they might have time to relocate if their turn comes back up.
Do note that in the PF RAW, HiPS or Stealth does NOT make your foe lose his DEX bonus automatically, thus no Sneak attack unless he flanks you, gets you flatfooted, etc.
They do have a blog up discussing a rule change for this.
Do they say that stealth makes you unable to react to a blow? In fact, it doesn’t, a blow would certainly hurt, do damage, and you’d react to this.
Indeed, if you read the Blog they make it very very clear that the RAW does not currently allow for Stealth to give Sneak attack, that is one of the intended changes. Why would they change a rule that was already there? The Blog “Speaking of hidden, while we have kept the invisible condition, and have even strengthened the wording on that condition a bit, we have also created a lesser, connected condition called hidden. Conditions
Hidden: You are difficult to detect but you not invisible. A hidden creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). You do not have line of sight to a creature or object that is hidden from you.”
Assuming said shadowdancer has spent all their skill points on perform and stealth: A bag of marbles for 1 copper.
The only thing "violent" about them is the potential for a twisted ankle or busted tailbone.
For that mattter 4 scrolls of grease; 1 in every direction.
Finally... the sun. You've got it for about 1/2 the day, its free and if employed correctly it ends up being worshipped as a god.
Oh sure, you could go some of the fancier ways like True Seeing or Planar Ally to whip up a pair of Hound Archons to sniff the bugger out, or even simpler spells like glitterdust or See Invisible. But where's the fun in that?
I'm sticking w/my bag o marbles...
Assuming said shadowdancer has spent all their skill points on perform and stealth: A bag of marbles for 1 copper.
The only thing "violent" about them is the potential for a twisted ankle or busted tailbone.
For that mattter 4 scrolls of grease; 1 in every direction.
Finally... the sun. You've got it for about 1/2 the day, its free and if employed correctly it ends up being worshipped as a god.
Oh sure, you could go some of the fancier ways like True Seeing or Planar Ally to whip up a pair of Hound Archons to sniff the bugger out, or even simpler spells like glitterdust or See Invisible. But where's the fun in that?
I'm sticking w/my bag o marbles...
Bag o marbles is funnier, caltrops would probably work better though I think I would use the marbles.
We've run down a list of spells you don't have. What do you have so we can give better advice?
A torch.
A creature can't use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
(Emphasis mine)
We've run down a list of spells you don't have. What do you have so we can give better advice?
Here are the spells I know:
Oth: Detect Magic, Message, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Mending, Light, Ray of Frost, Resistance, Read Magic
1st: Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Missle, Charm Person, Feather Fall, Grease, Hydraulic Push, Burning Hands, Protection From Evil, Entangle
2nd: See Invisibility, Resist Energy, Hideous Laughter, Flaming Sphere, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Alter Self, Scorching Ray
3rd: Fireball, Fly, Suggestion, Deep Slumber, Dispel Magic, Haste, Resist Energy Communal
4th: Confusion, Elemental Body I, Acid Pit, Freedom of Movement, Dragon's Breath, Tongues Communal
5th: Commune with Nature, Teleport, Feeblemind
In case anyone is wondering, the GM allowed me to take 1st level spells with my favored class bonus instead of 0 level spells for levels 2 and 3. He also let me pick different spells for my level 4 and 5 bloodline spells; Poison for Freedom of Movement because I have the Barred School flaw and Treestride for Commune With Nature because of how completely useless Treestride is.
The flaming sphere. It has a movement speed of 30. Roll it around the dungeon. it will 1) automatically stop when it hits the rogue and 2) shed light like a torch on his square, preventing him from being within 10 feet of shadows.
You can buy scrolls of any spells we've suggested.