| Roscoe |
Right, so I was thinking, hey, the synthesist summoner seems cool, maybe I will make one. The can do melee combat and cast spells, well rounded, powerful, who wouldn't want one in their party!
My hope was that This would be a class that can sort of do everything if built right, but isn't so spectacular that it's going to steal the thunder from the more specialized characters by doing everything while the entire rest of the party watches.
Alright, let me read the rule on this synthesist guy. Summoner and Eidolon are one creature, alright...take one set of actions, cool, spells effect them as one and worst type is used...
WAIT I HAVE LOTS OF QUESTIONS! Oh well, go to messageboards and see what the answers are. NO ONE FRIGGIN' AGREES! IT WOULD TAKE 5 YEARS OF RESEARCH TO FIND EVERYTHING I NEED! Awesome Paizo, way to leave us all hanging and make a class so incomprehensible that you can't play it without researching it for half your life first. Common, this is supposed to be a game, not a career!
So this probably isn't the best place for this but where the heck are the developers?! Can you guys clear this up a bit please.
Right, so there are a lot of things are different between the two creatures now merged into one besides stats. Which one takes precedence?
Lets make a little list of differences that are unclear about what takes precedence:
1) movement speed
2) limbs available for non-attack actions
3) special abilities like poly-morphing
3) the "no armor on eidolons" rule, if the summoner wears the armor, and they are one creature, does that mean the eidolon is also wearing it, which is prohibited?
4) are the summoner's hit points calculated based on weather or not the eidolon is present, changing the con score, or the original con score?
5) how are things that change ability scores applied to the fused summoner? Are they applied to modified (by the eidolon) ability scores, or are they applied to the original summoner's base stats and then supressed by the eidolon's presence?
There are more questions that WILL arise, is there a rule of thumb?
Ugh.
Thalin
|
But, to directly answer:
1) Take the movement speed(s) of the Eidilon
2) I can understand the confusion here. You need limbs (arms) to cast, and you have the limbs available to the Eidilon. In essence you give up your own body (it's inside) and use what he has available.
3) Polymorph Self is NOT on the Summoner's list, so even off a scroll cannot hit the Summoner (the ability to transfer self-only spells applies only to Summoner's spell list). Baleful Polymorph you can dismiss your Eidilon if he was the target; but he'll still be a bunny-form when he comes back; and as your form needs to be the Eidilon's or larger, you can't even fuse with it.
4) changes on presence / absence. So if you are my favorite dwarven Synthasist and you dismiss your Eidilon you may end up with more hp. On the other hand if you are a level 5 Synth with a 7 con and fuse into a 14 con Eidilon, you'd gain 10 hp... but having your Eidilon dismissed would kill you if losing that form lowered your con enough.
5) Whomever the target is; like if you cast enlarge person and target the Eidilon, his Str would increase / dex decrease. If you cast Eagle's spelndor you'd probably want to hit the Synth.
Yeah, it's a bit confusing, but just think of it as "I have all physical of one form and mental of the other" and it becomes a bit easier.
| Roscoe |
Now that I have posed the problem, I wish to submit what MY understanding of the rules:
So the summoner is the creature, the eidolon is basically only a modification to the summoner, and has ONLY the effects listed.
The summoner's stats are modified and this counts as temporary modifier, thus the summoner's original con is used to calculate hit points, the summoner gets evolutions, not size, not base move speed (the "limbs, legs" still grant additional movement), and does get the effects of items, and because anything that effects either the summoner or the eidolon effects both, any enhancements to stats or move speed effect both modified and original stats. The summoner can still hold items and attack with his/her normal limbs, and can still use other abilities.
If using natural attacks granted by evolutions, the summoner is limited to the eidolon's maximum naumber of natural attacks, but natural attacks granted by other means are not limited in this way. If the summoner uses natural attacks granted by evolutions, the summoner cannot use any other attacks he/she has access to in that round.
The armor question, as it is written, does not appear to prevent the summoner from wearing armor, but would of course still cause spell failure as normal. I would not be surprised if the developers intended you to not be able to wear armor while the eidolon is summoned however.
How this would interact with polymorph is a bit tricky, but I would suspect that the abilities modified by the eidolon would be modified again by polymorph. Hoever, because the polymorph is effecting eidolon also, the summoner would lose evolutions which are physical, because the shape of the entire body, summoner and eidolon, becomes that of whatever is transformed into.
Let me know if this seems like how it is supposed to work, thoughts, etc.
| Carl Cascone |
Rant
When did we players become so entitled that we think the people that make the game are at our beck and call?
We are lucky they OCCASIONALLY answer questions. They are under no obligation to do so.
I wish I could of invoked Gary Gygax when I was running Keep on the Borderlands in 4th grade to tell me that I could not have a - 27 AC by wearing Plate armor on top of chainmail on top of leather on top of padded. It also would have helped if Gygax gave me the ammunition I needed to say no to my fellow 4th grader who insisted he could fight with two halberds even though he was a halfling. I simply could not come up with a reason why that was impossible.
| Thomas Long 175 |
4) changes on presence / absence. So if you are my favorite dwarven Synthasist and you dismiss your Eidilon you may end up with more hp. On the other hand if you are a level 5 Synth with a 7 con and fuse into a 14 con Eidilon, you'd gain 10 hp... but having your Eidilon dismissed would kill you if losing that form lowered your con enough.
I think you're wrong on that one. from what I read the eidolon is temporary hit points that are gained in addition to your normal hit points. When its hit points hit 0 the eidolon goes away and you become a normal summoner. So from my reading it seems like the eidolon body and synthesist body have separate health pools. if the eidolon goes away its hit points are lost first. just my 2 cents
| Interzone |
Now that I have posed the problem, I wish to submit what MY understanding of the rules:
So the summoner is the creature, the eidolon is basically only a modification to the summoner, and has ONLY the effects listed.
The summoner's stats are modified and this counts as temporary modifier, thus the summoner's original con is used to calculate hit points, the summoner gets evolutions, not size, not base move speed (the "limbs, legs" still grant additional movement), and does get the effects of items, and because anything that effects either the summoner or the eidolon effects both, any enhancements to stats or move speed effect both modified and original stats. The summoner can still hold items and attack with his/her normal limbs, and can still use other abilities.
If using natural attacks granted by evolutions, the summoner is limited to the eidolon's maximum naumber of natural attacks, but natural attacks granted by other means are not limited in this way. If the summoner uses natural attacks granted by evolutions, the summoner cannot use any other attacks he/she has access to in that round.
The armor question, as it is written, does not appear to prevent the summoner from wearing armor, but would of course still cause spell failure as normal. I would not be surprised if the developers intended you to not be able to wear armor while the eidolon is summoned however.
How this would interact with polymorph is a bit tricky, but I would suspect that the abilities modified by the eidolon would be modified again by polymorph. Hoever, because the polymorph is effecting eidolon also, the summoner would lose evolutions which are physical, because the shape of the entire body, summoner and eidolon, becomes that of whatever is transformed into.
Let me know if this seems like how it is supposed to work, thoughts, etc.
Ok, several things:
1: The Summoner is fully enveloped by the Eidolon, so all physical aspects of the Summoner (including armor worn etc) become basically irrelevant (while the Eidolon is present).
Everything based on MENTAL stats goes by the normal mental stats of the Summoner.
Everything based on PHYSICAL stats goes by the stats of the Eidolon. (this includes the SUMMONERS HP)
The Summoners movement/limbs/etc and everything else physical, is based on the Eidolon.
i.e. if you want to cast spells you have to have the limbs-arms evolution and at least one hand free.
The Maximum Natural Attacks listed in the Eidolon entry applies to ALL natural attacks, regardless of source. There is still no limit on attacks with Manufactured weapons.
Armor worn has no effect while in merged form (this includes spell failure) but will resume functioning when the Eidolon is dismissed/killed/etc
| Interzone |
Thalin wrote:I think you're wrong on that one. from what I read the eidolon is temporary hit points that are gained in addition to your normal hit points. When its hit points hit 0 the eidolon goes away and you become a normal summoner. So from my reading it seems like the eidolon body and synthesist body have separate health pools. if the eidolon goes away its hit points are lost first. just my 2 cents
4) changes on presence / absence. So if you are my favorite dwarven Synthasist and you dismiss your Eidilon you may end up with more hp. On the other hand if you are a level 5 Synth with a 7 con and fuse into a 14 con Eidilon, you'd gain 10 hp... but having your Eidilon dismissed would kill you if losing that form lowered your con enough.
He means that id you Con score is different from your Eidolons, it can make your HP go up or down when the Eidolon goes away.
For example:
if you are level 1 with 18 CON, you have 12HP
when the Eidolon comes out (13 CON) you have 9HP + 7 temporary HP (your eidolons)
then if the eidolon goes away your HP will change again, since they will be based on your own Con score again