Hmm, what page is the line of sight diagram on? I know there are cover diagrams, I don't recall a line of sight one...
I actually couldn't find any except the cover and flanking diagrams. Since there is nothing explicit on line of sight I'm extrapolating from the cover diagrams since cover is supposed to be "line of sight" based.
I do think an errata or FAQ is needed on this. However, the concept that a medium character inhabits a full square is an old one and is also used in the cover diagrams to explain things like partial cover and the like.
Also, it just "makes sense" to me that an earth elemental could see into a room from an adjacent wall. Earth elementals don't have eyes like humans do and no elemental has a defined shape, they are all sort of amorphous. And their eyes and ears wouldn't work like humanoid eyes and ears anyway.
However, that ruling would suggest that an earth elemental in a wall between two rooms could observe both rooms simultaneously since perception is not directional.
I'll allow it.
Also, it just "makes sense" to me that an earth elemental could see into a room from an adjacent wall. Earth elementals don't have eyes like humans do and no elemental has a defined shape, they are all sort of amorphous. And their eyes and ears wouldn't work like humanoid eyes and ears anyway.
This is represented in the rules by them having tremorsense. For their visual senses to operate, they need to move into an open square.
The fact that a creature occupies its whole square doesn't mean that conditions that end at the edge of the square don't effect the creature. Just as a creature sitting at the edge of a fog effect would still take the penalties for fog in any direction, and an underwater creature right at the surface of the water still can't see clearly above the water, so a creature within the rock can't see due to the rock within its square. "Peeking out" requires crossing the line into a square where it can see.
Also, it just "makes sense" to me that an earth elemental could see into a room from an adjacent wall. Earth elementals don't have eyes like humans do and no elemental has a defined shape, they are all sort of amorphous. And their eyes and ears wouldn't work like humanoid eyes and ears anyway.This is represented in the rules by them having tremorsense. For their visual senses to operate, they need to move into an open square.
The fact that a creature occupies its whole square doesn't mean that conditions that end at the edge of the square don't effect the creature. Just as a creature sitting at the edge of a fog effect would still take the penalties for fog in any direction, and an underwater creature right at the surface of the water still can't see clearly above the water, so a creature within the rock can't see due to the rock within its square. "Peeking out" requires crossing the line into a square where it can see.
Please cite the rules that an earth elemental has to move into an open square to see into a room.
I have no doubt you believe this to be the case. Where does it say this in the rules?
The rules explain how being in a solid object works in the rules entry for incorporeal creatures:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
Although this rule is not explicitly found for earthglide and similar effects, there is no reason to believe it doesn't work the same way.
And, like I said before, similar rules apply for fog squares, for being "at the edge" of an abjuration effect, for being underwater, etc. Being in a square at the edge of an effect doesn't change the fact that you're still within the effect. That is clear from the rules.
The rules explain how being in a solid object works in the rules entry for incorporeal creatures:
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.Although this rule is not explicitly found for earthglide and similar effects, there is no reason to believe it doesn't work the same way.
And, like I said before, similar rules apply for fog squares, for being "at the edge" of an abjuration effect, for being underwater, etc. Being in a square at the edge of an effect doesn't change the fact that you're still within the effect. That is clear from the rules.
Are you suggesting that earth elementals are incorporeal? Or are you saying that elementals should follow incorporeal rules?
I can see the argument here, this would be a precedent that suggests that you can't "see" from the edge of your square, but this is still specific to incorporeal creatures, not elementals and I could argue (and will) that incorporeal creatures don't pass through walls the way elementals do. Earth elementals live, breathe, eat, work and mate within stone. Incorporeal creatures just have the ability to pass through them.
I'd agree this is a defensible argument, but it's still not RAW for elementals.
The RAW is that being within a solid body gives you total cover, and total concealment.
Your "technically you can see out the edge of your square" rule is not found in RAW, and is explicitly contradicted in the case of incorporeal creatures, which have the only rule (other than the general rule for total cover) to tell us how this should work.
Remember that PF is a permissive ruleset. Until you show me a rule that says earth elementals can see through solid stone, they can't. So RAW, they can't. Because this didn't make sense to the PF developers, they gave them tremorsense. But visual senses don't work in a place without light.
Your attempt to bend RAW on a technicality about squares doesn't work for the reasons already explained.
Your "show me where creature X doesn't have the ability to do Y, or I will assume they do" is a fallacious argument for a permissive ruleset. I also don't have a rule that says elves can't explode the brains of orcs as a free action. The rules tell you what you can do. They don't say you can do this.
RAW, earth gliding creatures can't see anything.
The RAW is that being within a solid body gives you total cover, and total concealment.
Your "technically you can see out the edge of your square" rule is not found in RAW, and is explicitly contradicted in the case of incorporeal creatures, which have the only rule (other than the general rule for total cover) to tell us how this should work.
Remember that PF is a permissive ruleset. Until you show me a rule that says earth elementals can see through solid stone, they can't. So RAW, they can't. Because this didn't make sense to the PF developers, they gave them tremorsense. But visual senses don't work in a place without light.
Your attempt to bend RAW on a technicality about squares doesn't work for the reasons already explained.
Your "show me where creature X doesn't have the ability to do Y, or I will assume they do" is a fallacious argument for a permissive ruleset. I also don't have a rule that says elves can't explode the brains of orcs as a free action. The rules tell you what you can do. They don't say you can do this.
RAW, earth gliding creatures can't see anything.
Jeebuz dude.
You are extrapolating raw with this incorporeal rule at least as much as I am from extending the only line of sight example in the RAW, and frankly I think more. You are trying to reverse the "specific trumps general" and say that since there are specific rules about incorporeal creatures in the book, that must work for ALL creatures who can move through solid objects.
I'll wait for an actual errata or developer to weigh in on this.
As I said, your argument has some merit. It might even be what the developers intended. But just because there isn't a general rule doesn't mean you get to apply a specific rule to everything.
I'll flag this so we can hopefully get an actual developer to weigh in. Perhaps you're right, if so I'd sure like it for the developers to actually bother to define "line of sight" since the term is used in the Core Rule Book about two dozen times...
You are extrapolating raw with this incorporeal rule at least as much as I am from extending the only line of sight example in the RAW, and frankly I think more. You are trying to reverse the "specific trumps general" and say that since there are specific rules about incorporeal creatures in the book, that must work for ALL creatures who can move through solid objects.
Nope. I'm taking the general rules about vision, concealment, cover, and the edges of effects and applying them to the situation where you're square is in complete concealment because it's in solid rock.
I'm also pointing out specific examples that verify this rule -- creatures in fog, creatures underwater, and incorporeal creatures in solid rock.The general rule is clear that the concealment/cover condition that includes your square will grant concealment/cover. The specific applications of that rule, including one involving creatures in solid rock, confirms this application.
We have general rules for this sort of situation (concealment effects that cover whole squares), we have very specific applications (for incorporeal creatures), and you're arguing that this specific example should be different.
You have yet to establish a single confirmed example where the rules work as you assert they should for concealment/cover, because they never work that way. They work consistently, and the lack of a specific exception for earth elementals should be assumed to be what it appears to be.
You have yet to establish a single confirmed example where the rules work as you assert they should for concealment/cover, because they never work that way. They work consistently, and the lack of a specific exception for earth elementals should be assumed to be what it appears to be.
And the only example you've posted is specifically for incorporeal creatures. We'll have to agree to disagree. You clearly are more invested in this than I am. I just wish the developers would straighten up the rules so it's clear.
And the only example you've posted is specifically for incorporeal creatures.
Which is one more example than you've posted, isn't it? But I've provided to other examples, even if I didn't actually cite the rules -- fog and underwater. Are you arguing that either of them don't work as I've claimed?
Again, the incorporeal creatures rule is one example of how this works according to the general rules for concealment/cover, as clearly explained in the combat chapter. You are, again, going to have to explain why your specific case should work differently here than it does everywhere else. I don't think there is a good argument for that position.
The Druid needs Tremor sense to see/hear while melded with a wall, it also would prevent him from geting lost while melding.
Can we ditch the permissive rule set argument?
By that logic, our characters immediately suffocate, since the rules don't specifically state that they can breathe.
I'm also not buying into the incorporeal extrapolation. It's a clever find, but an incorporeal creature isnt the same critter as an elemental.
It's extrapolation either way. The rules aren't explicit. Arguing that "my extrapolation is more reasonable than YOUR extrapolation" is silly. Not that it will stop because of that.
GMs, as usual, will rule on how to play this as they do all rules that aren't specific enough to be clear to everyone.
I think the incorporeal argument is a reasonable one. As a GM I would take that into account. But it's not definitive. Wish a developer would weigh in.
I'm not saying your interpretation doesn't "make sense". I'm saying it's not RAW.Situation two characters are adjacent to one another.
A wall of stone spell is cast between them (along the edge of their shared square).
Can they see, touch and/or attack one another?
From what you are saying they would be able to do so without even cover.
Do you believe that this is either RAW or RAI? I don't.
I think that you are having those lines pass through that barrier. Do you disagree?
-James
One inch thick per 4 levels of stone is going to be in one square or the other. The stone is not an infinitesimally thin layer between squares. And you are not moving through it.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but even an inch of stone in one square will block line of sight from another square.
As for the square you cast it in, I suppose you would have to rule that you are being squeezed at least that one inch.
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Why is an inch of stone from wall of stone any different from an inch of stone from an actual... wall? If you have earthglide is a wall of stone transparent?
If a wall is 5' 1" thick can you suddenly no longer see through it because that extra inch of thickness is in the adjacent space?
James, I'm not opposed to anyone electing to use the incorporeal rules. My objection is against the position that the incorporeal rules by RAW also apply to an earth gliding earth elemental.
In any situation like this, where the rules aren't clear, my suggestion is going to be to use common sense and whatever seems to make the most sense.
If the incorporeal rules seem to make sense for you, then by all means, use them.
I tend to take a stance of "it's an earth elemental; of course it can see where it's going," as well as "it's an earth elemental; of course it can sidle up to a wall's edge and cast a chain lightning on the PCs" (assuming it has arcane class levels).
Now that I realize that druids don't gain tremorsense, as I had previously erroneously thought, I'd treat them a bit more strictly than I would a monster.
Why is an inch of stone from wall of stone any different from an inch of stone from an actual... wall? If you have earthglide is a wall of stone transparent?
If a wall is 5' 1" thick can you suddenly no longer see through it because that extra inch of thickness is in the adjacent space?
You were using the example of casting a wall between two squares. That has to be done either with the wall in one square and not the other, or split 1/2 inch between the two walls. Your example was of normal people with normal vision, not earth elementals, but the idea is still the same.
If there is 1/2" or more of stone in the square you are trying to look through, that blocks line of sight. So if the wall is cast 1/2" on each square, then by the line of sight digram in the cover rules, both creatures would have line of sight blocked.
I believe that you cannot cast a wall into a square with a creature in it, so for you to be adjacent to another square then you would have had to have moved into a square with a wall on one edge, which would call in the "squeeze" rules since the square is partially obstructed. Since line of sight is not defined, you could make all sorts of arguments about what that means, but I'll choose to decide that if you squeeze into a partial square, then your line of sight starts where your squeeze ends, meaning that it starts before the wall since you can't move into the wall.
If you CAN move into the wall, say because you are wild shaped as an earth elemental, then it's the same thing, the wall does not obstruct since you don't have to squeeze.
(EDIT: to be more clear, the FIRST half inch of wall doesn't obstruct since that is in your square and if you are an earth elemental you aren't stopped by the wall and can inhabit the entire 5' square. However the OTHER 1/2" of wall in the ADJACENT square would, in fact, obstruct your line of sight.
Heh, this means as an exploit to defend yourself from spell-casting earth elementals you could cast a thin wall on the walls and the earth elemental would have to move into that square to see, which would expose it to you. Love exploits....)
This is all pointless though, it's just a bunch of attempts to interpret rules to cover something that isn't covered and everyone is just going to interpret it how they think it should work.
Need some designer input. Until then, play it as you like.
Only if said earth elemental had x-ray vision. :)
To see INTO a room, the earth elemental does not need to see THROUGH any stone at all. Show me in the RAW where it says that when you look from one square to another that your line of sight starts IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SQUARE.
It doesn't. And the only diagrams that show line of sight show that line of sight starting at the CORNER OF THE SQUARE.
All this constant harping on "earth elementals can't see through stone" just show that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY POINT.
Earth elementals look into a room by having their vision START at the END of their square. There is NO STONE BETWEEN THE EYE AND THE EMPTY ROOM. Get it?
Show me in the RAW where it says otherwise.
Confucius say: He who have pebble in eye, cannot see the mountain before him.
Confucius also say: Rich man give wife grand piano. Wise man give wife upright organ.
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Show me in the RAW where it says otherwise.
RAW do not address seeing through stone at all. Mostly because it's pretty obvious.
Edit: There is no rule that says whether or not you are capable of seeing out every corner of the space you are in because there are no rules in the game regarding line of sight at all. When asked about it previously Sean said something along the lines of line of sight is what a person would be able to see in that situation.... that is it.
You are essentially in a 5'x5'x5' box filled with dirt... I would let someone stick their face out one side of it but then they can see you as well. I could see even see arguing that someone doing this would have cover, but there is line of sight and line of effect in both ways.
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Nope. I didn't call it blind sight (or echolocation) because it's not.
I can't imagine blind sight working inside th eground, but actually echolocation would work exceptionally well inside stone and very poorly in dirt. Solid stone will transmit sound very well. The constant interrupt between soil and air would make it not work well in dirt or sand. I'm not sure about something like clay though.
Can we ditch the permissive rule set argument?
By that logic, our characters immediately suffocate, since the rules don't specifically state that they can breathe.A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side.
Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.
Well-played, sir. I knew I should have drilled down more specifically. However, that only nullifies my specific example. My general argument against "permissive rule set" still stands.
To put my argument another way, since the rules don't specify that the PCs can breathe a 21% oxygen, 78% nitrogen, 1% other atmosphere, then the PCs asphyxiate, under a "permissive" rule set. Or, since the rules don't specify that the PCs may administer a dutch oven to the party gnome, then the PCs may not, in fact, administer a dutch oven.
I actually think a gnome would enjoy a dutch oven...