Magic Item Creation: DC increase for missing Prerequisites and command word items


Rules Questions


OK, one of the other players at my table (I am not the GM) has item creation feats and has been having a field day creating powerful items. Our GM allows the restriction discounts to be applied which curbs the costs big time and the player also has the hedge mage trait. However, the discounts is not the only thing because it is being compounded by this he found the below in the item creation rules.

Core Rule Book pg 549 wrote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.

Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed. The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Now he has the required feats and has not been making spell trigger or spell completion magic items, but he has been making command word and continuous items which allow any one to use the blasted things as long as the restrictions are meet, but then again they are being tailored. He has convinced our GM that, according to the emboldened text in the quote above, that he can virtually ignore most prerequisites like knowing the spell and being able to cast the spell (not high enough caster level).

Now I know other paragraphs, state that you must know the spells you want your item to have, but that text above says you don't as long as you accept the increased DC.

Frankly I am getting confused on this but it feels wrong if not down right beyond cheesy because that means he could create command word items that cast spells higher then he would normal cast.


Quote:
He has convinced our GM that, according to the emboldened text in the quote above, that he can virtually ignore most prerequisites like knowing the spell and being able to cast the spell (not high enough caster level).

That is the correct interpretation.


Thems the breaks with item creation. You just add +5 to the DC for every pre-requisite the caster does not meet. This has to be true or feats like Master Craftsman are entirely useless for non-casters to make magic items. The bold states the only restriction being you need the spell required for spell-trigger(wands and such) and spell-completion(scrolls).


So by that interpretation, as long as the character has the correct craft feat and a high enough skill in spellcraft or craft skill, and enough money that he or she could create a command word item even though they could cast the spell in the first place?

For example, could a 3rd level cleric possibly create a command word haste item?


It's not an interpretation. It's the rules.

If the GM lets him, then yes. Just like how they can create boots of speed.

It fixed a lot of issues with crafting in 3.5. But hey, if he wants to spend a lot of feats and skill ranks to be an amazing crafter, that's cool.


Sure, but do remember that the crafter in the party is spending, time, energy, cash, and most importantly feats to do this. So while everyone else is learning new abilities and focusing their character builds the crafter is camping out trying to get this bloody ring to work.


OK, as long as I am seeing consensus from other people I guess I can't really argue.

What about the command word base price? If you create an item with that base price for spell effects is it's use unlimited or do you have to apply the unlimited base price in addition?


You use the unlimited formula. I will also add that using the formulas by the book can lead to unbalanced items if they are custom items. The famous true striking sword* is really cheap for what it does as an example.

*A deliberate example of how pricing can be abused.


wraithstrike wrote:

You use the unlimited formula. I will also add that using the formulas by the book can lead to unbalanced items if they are custom items. The famous true striking sword* is really cheap for what it does as an example.

*A deliberate example of how pricing can be abused.

Oh we ruled a long time ago that any spell that didn't have a duration could not be made continuous.


OK so if you just use Unlimited Use base cost then it requires a UMD check like a wand correct?

So how many uses do you get out of a command word base price item? It couldn't just be one because that would fall under single use.


Command word base items just means you need to know the magic word to turn it on. It does not limit uses by itself.

Unlimited use base cost does not require a UMD check either, not in and of itself.

A ring of invisibilty is an unlimited use item as an example.


I know a ring is not a wondrous item, but there are items such as the cloaks of displacement which are unlimited use so I guess that is a better example.


concerro wrote:

Command word base items just means you need to know the magic word to turn it on. It does not limit uses by itself.

Unlimited use base cost does not require a UMD check either, not in and of itself.

A ring of invisibilty is an unlimited use item as an example.

OK lets say I create a command word Belt of Mirror Image with just the command word base cost. I then in combat say the command word as a standard action. The effect wears off, can I use the belt again later or is it all used up? If I can use it again then is it limited or unlimited uses?

Creating an unlimited use base cost would be less expensive than doing the command word base cost. If they were both not limited how many times they could be used why ever use the command word base cost?


You can use it again if the belt has unlimited uses.

The cape of the montebook is a command word item, but the lantern of revealing is continous use/unlimited. Other than that designation I don't see much difference.

I really don't recommend using those formulas for pricing if every item. The cape and the lantern as an example could be said to be made either way.

Those formulas are guidelines(even the devs say this), and not a rule to be followed. That is why I brought up the true strike sword earlier.


You can't make a continuous item of a spell that has a duration measured in less than 1 round/level. A sword of truestrike is impossible. It lasts for 1 round and doesn't fit the rules for item creation. The table gives an a notation mark to look for a multiplier based on a spells duration and doesn't account for spells with less than 1 round/level durations. Book doesn't say you can do it so you can't.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:
concerro wrote:

Command word base items just means you need to know the magic word to turn it on. It does not limit uses by itself.

Unlimited use base cost does not require a UMD check either, not in and of itself.

A ring of invisibilty is an unlimited use item as an example.

OK lets say I create a command word Belt of Mirror Image with just the command word base cost. I then in combat say the command word as a standard action. The effect wears off, can I use the belt again later or is it all used up? If I can use it again then is it limited or unlimited uses?

Creating an unlimited use base cost would be less expensive than doing the command word base cost. If they were both not limited how many times they could be used why ever use the command word base cost?

There is a multiplier for charges. You divide the value by 5/x where x is the number of charges. When dividing by fractions you invert and multiply so find the right formula and then multiply by x/5.

mirror image command word would be;

2(spell level)x3(caster level)x1800gp

if you had 3 charges per day this would then be multiplied by 3/5 or 60%.

Edit: items with unlimited charges you treat the formula as if they had 100 charges.


I think a continuous use mirror image belt would be rather useless, as the images would get destroyed over time (probably the first combat). Since it doesn't recast, it's a constant use, the spell would run out of images and be a very expensive bangle from then on. :)

Any object that allows you to cast spells should fall under the rules for 'duplicates an existing object', meaning that if it duplicates a wand, you craft a wand, you don't make 100 charge wondrous items instead.

All that aside, the magic item creation rules state the GM should closely monitor all custom magic items, and use their own judgement to keep them in line.


OK so the charges a day price adjustment is just for the base cost of a command word item?


Its not a continuous mirror image having 100 charges. That's how you treat wondrous items that have unlimited charges. I don't think mirror image would be applicable to the continuous effect since the spell is based off of a duration/level but is cut short when the images are gone. Same would go for any spell that had a stipulated duration.


mdt wrote:

I think a continuous use mirror image belt would be rather useless, as the images would get destroyed over time (probably the first combat). Since it doesn't recast, it's a constant use, the spell would run out of images and be a very expensive bangle from then on. :)

Any object that allows you to cast spells should fall under the rules for 'duplicates an existing object', meaning that if it duplicates a wand, you craft a wand, you don't make 100 charge wondrous items instead.

All that aside, the magic item creation rules state the GM should closely monitor all custom magic items, and use their own judgement to keep them in line.

I didn't say a continuous use belt of mirror image and I said a unlimited use belt of mirror image which is different wording. A continuous item means that it is always active and merely needs to be worn or carried on the person to have an effect.

An unlimited use item means you activate the spell it runs it course depending on it's spell duration or other factors that end the spell and then it deactivates but when you activate it again the spell resets. It is basically unlimited charges.


ItoSaithWebb wrote:
OK so the charges a day price adjustment is just for the base cost of a command word item?

Yes. You have to figure out the base cost and then apply the charges a day factor. The charges a day is always present on command word items. Some are 1 use a day some are more. This will affect the price on the item. 5 charges is full price, more than 5 is an increase in price, less than 5 is a decrease in price.


I've read threads where GMs allow players to make wands that have charges per day but I don't feel it's appropriate. A regular wand has 50 charges and no restriction on the number of charges you can use. If you're going to allow the use of a wand with this it can reduce the price of a wand if you only allow 4 or less uses per day. If you do this you would have to apply things both ways and a regular wand is now worth 7500gp instead of 750gp for a level 1 spell that can be used 50 times a day.


Khrysaor wrote:
I've read threads where GMs allow players to make wands that have charges per day but I don't feel it's appropriate. A regular wand has 50 charges and no restriction on the number of charges you can use. If you're going to allow the use of a wand with this it can reduce the price of a wand if you only allow 4 or less uses per day. If you do this you would have to apply things both ways and a regular wand is now worth 7500gp instead of 750gp for a level 1 spell that can be used 50 times a day.

The closest I come to this is allowing the old 'eternal wands' from MIC, which have 2 charges per day. I do update the pricing based on PF (although at the moment I can't remember if they ended up costing the same or not).

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