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It's been a long year and a half of playing Kingmaker. 61 three-four hour online sessions (using Fantasy Grounds) and my 6-player group is ready (or not) to face Nyrissa, and I though I might share some thoughts on things that occured, and ideas we tried.
Prologue
I had my players meet with King Surtova to get their orders to explore the stolen lands. I had intended to make trips to Brevoy a large part of the RPing for my group, but lack of interest and motivation meant that didn't happen.
The Stolen Lands.
An excellent introduction, though early on my players showed they were less interested in slowly going from hex to hex around a map basically without aim (and would often bee-line serious threats instead of pacing themselves). In the first 3-4 sessions I used day to day weather in an attempt to keep things interesting, but a large number of exploration encounters, especially before the whole party is mounted means they often won't get more than a single encounter per day.
The mite lair had too many ineffective enemies. The area dragged out and was very little fun.
The kobolds were more interesting, as they routed Tartuk and make good friends with the pests - a fact that came back to bite them several times in the future...
The Stag Lord's fort was fun. I think it works especially well when the players play along, and get into the fort in disguise rather than assaulting the walls directly. The earlier placed grog and prisoner information was great for leading the players to that conclusion, rather than railroading them.
Rivers Run Red
Probably the most forgotten chapter. There were trolls (which was a nice, if a bit pointless, dungeon). There was the giant owlbear - which could have been better used to forshadow Nyrissa, but we played that before chapter 6 was available, so I didn't have the information to make the changes I could have.
The Kingdom running rules went right over the head of at least one of my players, and only had the interest of one or two. We played with 'hidden values' variant in an attempt to keep interest - but I scapped running the subgame for a more roleplaying focused idea later...
Varnhold Vanishing
I quite liked this chapter. The town had enough evidence for my players as written to go chasing the Centaurs, then on to Vordakai's lair. This whole adventure was a bit on the easy side however, except the piscodaemon who almost TPK'd the group thanks to some bad saves against his stinking cloud. By now my players had all but stopped exploring except on their way somewhere.
*Realm of the Felnight Queen
Due to the lack of exploring, my players were about 2 levels under recommended at this point, so I found myself a copy of Felnight Queen to bolster them a bit, and also try out some mass combat rules I'd written where players would be able to make their own actions as well as their armies. They turned out ponderous and unfun, but overall the module worked nicely, if a bit easy. It was very easy to change some names - make the town Tatzlford, and the marriage couple Loy Resbin and his defacto wife.
Blood for Blood
I was in the process of re-writing my mass combat rules when we started this module, so I ended up running it as written. The infiltration of Drelev Demesne and Fort Drelev was quite fun, with much self control my players only killed the giants and arrested the nobility - almost no human loss of life - which lead into an awesome RP sess putting the former leaders on trial. The old Baron was sentanced to death, and in the process the party bard swayed Quintessa so well she fell in love. Took a bit of convincing to prove she actually quit working for Irovetti - which wasn't helped by the Poison Plot quest when she was fed misinformation. Armag's dungeon was quite fun, my players dodging the most deadly of the traps. 6-player improved Armag himself proved to be extremely difficult - not evil so not subject to smite, and he took down 3 players (of 5 in the session) by himself from full health. Also it was around this chapter when I implemented RP kingdom running. Once a game month I would present certain players with difficulties that the kindgom had to face, to present to the group. If I'd had more time to develop this idea I think it would have been a better way to make kingdom running less crunchy.
War of the River King
My new mass combat system was finished by this point. Each army was effectively a character that had several abilities. It was quite simple in execution (though I'd crunched a lot of numbers on my side) so players just had HP, number of attacks and damage (not even AC - attacks would automatically hit) - and special 'powers' that would do other things, like an army of clerics could swift-heal themselves or adjacent armies. And after every battle the army would get a new power or type equipment, or more men.
Meanwhile the tournement was interesting. The boasting was by far the most fun. Jousting least. My players ended up losing the tourney to 6 player version of Villamor.
My players didn't understand why they should keep searching White Rose Abbey when they confirmed with Gaetane there was no 'secret weapon' and whatever Irovetti found there was removed years ago. And then when they cleared out the ghost they all but ignored the waterclock with Evindra in it - the one serious bit of Nyrissa forshadowing in the game. In the end I had to drop the subtleness and have one of the NPC rulers 'accidentally' release her.
Irovetti's palace had some good encounters and some bad encounters. The throneroom was one of the best encounters I've ever run. The roving bands of guards, Alasen, Geovidius, etc were very plain in comparison. Having read noted from the writer it sounds like it was originally a much more interesting place overall, but oh well. Due to a confusion in the stair cases my players managed to miss the Remoraz completely.
I felt Irovetti as a bard was very weak, and made him into a Magus. A couple of bad moves meant that he failed to escape in the end, to haunt them another day.
Sound of a Thousand Screams
The blooms of this section worked marvelously. The players knew they had to take the fight to Nyrissa soon, but when these started popping up they got worried. Mostly due to luck they uprooted the realm after their second fight in Thousand Voices. We're all pretty tired of the campaign by now, so I've decided that the timeloop still functions, though the rest of the House of Knives does not, meaning all foes are staggered, which is still eating resources and means they will not face Nyrissa at full power, but also stops them from resting and recouperating, while Nyrissa just sits and waits. My players only have the defaced nymphs, Phomandala, and Nyrissa, unless they stop their current trend of running straight towards the finish. I still plan on using the upgraded 6P Nyrissa. I'm not sure my exhausted party will have a chance, but it's the end. I'm OK with a TPK. :P
Conclusions:
Kingmaker is a good AP, though with weak linking components, which can be fixed by a dedicated GM with access to all of the books up front. It's also not for everyone, if your players aren't interested in exploring every nook and cranny they're going to miss out. (Mine literally never entered/claimed the hex with the dehorned unicorn.)
I've run three different ideas for kingdom running now. In Rise of the Runelords I had a very precise system of income, staff and such, which was too much work for the GM and not very interesting for the players.
Kingmaker's kingdom builder, which could be interesting for some groups earlier one, but my group and I found it very dry - and as multiple people have worked out the magic item economy makes or breaks it. And now an RP one, where they have to make policial decisions, and have outcomes based on that, which requires the most creativity, but especially in sandboxy games makes a large difference, plus it answers questions about the kingdom "What do we do about unemployment?" for example.
15 minute work day is to be avoided. Kingmaker is very guilty of making these happen. Even interesting combats, if there's only one in a day, it's either super life threatening, or steamrolled. I think this could be avoided by clustering 2 or 3 locations into a single hex - which would leave more hexes blank but also make things more interesting, IMO.
6 player mods to a 4 player adventure path. A few others and I went to a lot of work to make sure there was enough XP and treasure to go around by expanding encounters for 6 players. In practice a lot of these encounters ended up going wildly wrong. Irovetti's guards were still a pushover, but gave more XP. 15 minute working day encounters took longer to resolve, but didn't provide more of a challenge. Armag became so powerful he was taking out tanks in a single full round action. Some of them went right, like Kankerata. Rebuilds worked well too, like Irovetti as Magus and Zorek as Oracle. This raises a fundemental problem in PF (and 3.5) - that a higher effective party level does not mean they can handle single higher level bad guys.
Objective. It has to be clear. Chapter 2, 4 and 5 are all about protecting the Kingdom, which is good. It works. But my players would be like "What do we do now?", even with a plate of sidequests still on the table. All of the antagonists in Kingmaker were too short lived, or not antagonistic enough.
I'm sure I had more stuff I wanted to say, but that's all I can think of. :P
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If you only have 1 or 2 players interested in the Kingdom building stuff, ask them to come about 15-20 minutes early to the next game. Or stay back 15-20 minutes and do a few months of Kingdom Building each time.
Whenever you roll an Event that you feel would make sense for one of the Leaders to take care of with a decision/skill roll or Kingdom roll just keep it aside for the beginning of next session so everyone feels like they are contributing.
It's how I handle it and my players like it well.
Here's a month's exerpt of what I prepared for the RP variant rulership (I have dozens):
Month-----Kuthona
News: The Churches of Iomedae and Abadar have sent support for the destruction of the Occulus of Abaddon. In addition to morale support for Syxland, they also include a cash reward of 9000gp. // Destroyed Occulus in Vordakai's lair.
News: Xamanthe. She has ‘run away’ from home to Syxland, hoping to live a life of glory and adventure, like the heroes. They convinced her to train up to be safe first; induct her into Lothar's knightly regiment for further training. Wild nature rebels in future?
Count Lothar - No event
Chancillor - Position unfilled - ?
Gen. Kyria - No event
Ambassador Svetlana - Present The laws of the River Kingdoms (Guide to the River Kingdoms pg. 8) before players go to tournement
High Priestess Elohra - no event
Archon Viraqk - The Battle of Falheart - Pharasma herself claims this field. If the heroes wish to destroy the Ovinrbaane, this might be a likely place to enter the boneyards while remaining living. Inner Sea guide pg.143.
Marshal Mikmek - Outlying farms being preyed upon by wandering monsters is not uncommon, but recently there’s been a serious increase in thefts, probably due to proximity to the River Kingdoms whose possession laws are very lax. ~~ players undecided. Bigger problems next month.
Spymaster Borghildr - Early Pitax reports indicate that they have several unusual armies, including hill giants and wyverns, as well as extensive use of mercenaries and Numerian barbarians.. They are not currently on active campaigns. ~Advise only
Treasurer Zakko - No event
Warden Oleg - The number of homeless in Thornstag is increasing dramatically, which in turn is increasing the amount of crime in town, meanwhile many frivolous cases are passing in court. Anyone with enough money can charge anyone with anything they want.
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In short I provided reviews of past month, and then a short report that each character should provide to the council. In this case it was mostly NPCs, but I'm sure you get the gist.
Anyway, the results shouldn't be enumerated, but explored on in further roleplaying. If, say, the players allow the worship of any god(s) then they'd hit upon two problems:
Evil worshippers sacrificing people. (Summon a bunch of demons to fight!)
Good worshippers trying to stop the bad ones. (Whoa! Suddenly against the law, and lots of well meaning people are in jail!)
In the end your players give your civilization tons of personality, instead of numbers. For inspiration, I just hit up various news sources online for current events. (Government funded schooling hit a particular nerve in my group, which I found interesting - which in real life they agreed with, but in the game denied. XD)
Thanks Chaos very informative read. In contrast, i'm finding in my PbP that Chapter 2 is the most engaging thus far of the first two chapters, but i've added lots of extra content to it.
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Really, Alexander? My group just finished Chapter 3 after a year of play; the war against Varnhold (they were in league with Brevoy, who had cut off diplomatic relations to Draaland) ended abruptly when the enemy disappeared, allowing the PCs to clean up the nation's leadership. The death of Vordakai (who was a hair's breadth from a TPK) has heralded a period of stability.
Chapter 2, however, was incredibly slow and plodding. It took us nearly six months by itself. Blood for Blood will go very well, I think.
Good stuff General Chaos.
Thanks
I agree that having the later books helps the DM make the narrative flow better. I am personally just starting Rivers Run Red using the Monster Kingdom variant. I plan on having Varnhold Vanishing have an Undead Kingdom variant, which should be fun. The players may have just triggered civil war in Brevoy, though, which could throw the plans awry.
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It's been a long year and a half of playing Kingmaker. 61 three-four hour online sessions (using Fantasy Grounds) and my 6-player group is ready (or not) to face Nyrissa, and I though I might share some thoughts on things that occured, and ideas we tried.
Prologue
I had my players meet with King Surtova to get their orders to explore the stolen lands. I had intended to make trips to Brevoy a large part of the RPing for my group, but lack of interest and motivation meant that didn't happen.The Stolen Lands.
** spoiler omitted **Rivers Run Red
** spoiler omitted **...
Good stuff Chaos. Thanks for sharing.
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I agree that having the later books helps the DM make the narrative flow better. I am personally just starting Rivers Run Red using the Monster Kingdom variant. I plan on having Varnhold Vanishing have an Undead Kingdom variant, which should be fun. The players may have just triggered civil war in Brevoy, though, which could throw the plans awry.
Oooh! Vordekai's Kingdom of the Dead. I like that, any material you want to throw onto the boards?
It's mostly just ideas percolating in my head. I basically want my players to lead an army against every major foe, whether on offense or defense. Chapter 1 saw them lead a militia against the Stag Lord's bandit army. Chapter 2 will hopefully see them lead the nation's first real armies (a few hundred men) on the monstrous kingdom. Chapter 3 will be a big threat of much of the populace of Varnhold being raised as undead, with them leading a big army against the zombie horde. (There will likely be a lot of zombie centaurs, too.) Chapter 4-5 will probably be very similar to written, and Chapter 6 is most likely going to be heavily re-written into a three-way battle between Nyrissa, Choral (in control of much of Brevoy), and the PC kingdom with their remaining allies.
I'm a big fan of the 'heroes battle it out in the stronghold as their armies clash' trope.
I actually have a few additional ideas for the monster kingdom, which I'll throw in there later.