Situation:
A wizard is speaking Draconic as an envoy to some kobolds who're holed up in an area which other creatures can no longer access due to the presence of the Kobolds. The wizard, in his know-it-all brain, has decided the area would be better off with no kobolds. However, the Cleric standing next to him, who does not speak Draconic, is morally against killing/ousting some relatively contained kobolds who refuse to leave their chosen home. The wizard wants to use his words (which only he and the kobolds understand) to provoke the Kobolds into attacking the party, in order to look innocent in the eyes of the rest of the party and achieve the 'greater good' for the area by eliminating the Kobolds.
So my question is, can Sense Motive help a PC realize that something is wrong with what appears to be happening and what is actually happening without speaking the language? If so, to what extent does this help him? What would he know with a high vs a low roll? Would this be a Bluff vs Sense Motive check, and who would the checks be against?
I read about sense motive but my situation seems a little out of the scope of the skill. Any help is appreciated.
Sure they can.
What is being said will be a mystery, however what is going on won't be.
Sure they can.
What is being said will be a mystery, however what is going on won't be.
So the one making the Sense Motive check would know the Wizard is fooling the kobolds into attacking the party by lying about the parties intentions, and now the Wizard should no longer be trusted?
OR
The one making the sense motive check would realize they're getting attacked by kobolds?
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The cleric can use Sense Motive to figure out that the wizard is egging on the kobolds - even when he doesn't understand the language used. Personally I would resolve it as wizard-bluff vs cleric-sense-motive, giving the wizard a +5(at most) bonus for speaking in a language that the cleric doesn't understand.
It seems further complicated by the fact that the players know, pretty much, what the other players are doing and trying to have the characters act in a way unaffected by the players knowledge. Tough to do I think. I mean how else would the Cleric even know to use a Sense Motive check? But thanks everyone for your comments so far. It seemed complicated to me and your responses help.
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Absolutely. At least so far as I'm concerned. This has happened in my game, and I use the rules for getting a hunch (DC20.) Using subtle clues like body language, tone of voice, etc., I've let my players roll to figure out when something is up. Maybe the wizard has visual cues the cleric is used to when he's being aggressive? He might furrow his brow or twitch his wizardin' finger. Sense Motive can be a sort of sixth sense for danger to somebody who's put the time in to learning the skill.
The rule I use and something you might try to quickly resolve the issue is a straight-up DC20 for the cleric to realize the kobolds are tightening their grips on their spears or the wizard is making that face he makes when he's about to blow something up. He wouldn't know what's being said, but he'd knows whatever it is is making the kobolds nervous. For all he knows, the wizard could be trying to Intimidate or Bluff them into leaving peacefully, and he's at his liberty to ask what the wizard is saying. If the wizard lies, then you can bust out the opposed Bluff/Sense Motive. By then, it might already be too late, but the cleric might still have options like defending the kobolds with protective magic in the ensuing battle, healing their wounds or whatever else he's inclined to do. In the future, he might want to prepare Comprehend Languages.
The Cleric doesn't have to know the language, Sense Motive is not a skill that relies on someone talking - indeed they can say nothing as the skill is there to gain a "hunch".
The Cleric doesn't have to 'know' when to make a check, it's on the Wizard to try to bluff the Cleric if he wants to get away with it, which will be opposed by the Clerics Sense Motive skill. The Cleric gets a SM check regardless, at a DC of 20, to know something is wrong.
The sense motive is to pick up that the Wizard is acting suspiciously, and in particular, towards the kobolds.
The roll would let them understand the body language of the wizard who is talking, to get the context. A sense motive lets you do just that- Sense a motive. Not knowing their language will make it difficult, but the cleric should be able to figure out that the wizard is up to something devious. WHAT that is, exactly, is hard to determine. It's not what the wizard is saying, but what he's doing.
It's sort of like if you see two people whispering or yelling in another language, you get a vibe of what it's about. Say two college guys are whispering in french while eyeing a pretty ladytpe. You don't need to know french to know what's going on there. Of course, this is a bit more subtle than that, but it's an extension of the same concept.
I would say this should take a penalty of anywhere from -4 to -10 as the cleric has to solely read body languages and has no linguistic tools to determine inflection or double meaning or outright lies.
@ Shifty & Shah, O I C. Thanks for the pointers
I don't believe there should be a penalty, as sense motive can simply give the feeling that something is wrong. That the Wizard is acting 'shady'.
Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
In this case you are witnessing a conversation, and although you don't understand the content, the body language and reactions might be off. The Wizard can attempt a Bluff to cover up, but thats all.
As above, the example of two College guys is spot on, we know whats going on even if we can't speak a word of their language... they don't even need to SAY anything really, they might just nod and wink at each other as she passes and we know whats going on 100%.
They could, of course, try be subtle about it (Bluff), but otherwise we know the story, words or no words.
That's a valid point, but at the same time there is less context involved. We could run an reducto ad absurdium and wonder if someone without any senses can sense motive- If they are unable to hear in a dark room, can they sense the motives of someone using drow sign language? They are essentially without a good deal of their hearing- at least, relevant hearing. They can't understand the words or inflections of the language, so they can ONLY do body language, which is harder than having other inferences such as double meanings, tone of voice and the likes. Keep in mind, some languages use tone as different words, not as different inflections on the same word.
All good points. Also, I wouldn't let the wizard do it without a positive modifier in his charisma. Meaning, I wouldn't let him be sly enough to get away with it under the other parties noses. If he had a negative modifier, it is an automatic fail (either the creatures attack, or if they are smart, and don't necessarily want to fight, they would tell the companions to shut up their companion before something goes down. At a bluff, obviously, if the PCs want to sense motive their desire to fight.)
Also, in these types of circumstances where the PC is trying to pull of a "shenanigan" if you will, that he wants to keep secret, he and the GM can always write a dialogue to each other on paper, back and forth - with the PC and GM hissing back and forth to each other. Then the GM would describe the demeanor of the Kobolds, and could even begin tipping the hat of the wizard with some strong SM secret rolls on behalf of the other party members, if they ever start getting suspicious.