The driving factor behind what makes us intelligent is sociability. What if creatures had some other evolutionary reason driving their intelligence.
Lovecraft was on to something. Why octopi may be even smarter than we thought, and why they probably think we're stupid.
The growing evidence for octopus intelligence
Oh man, if octopuses* weren't orphaned at birth, they'd be building a civilization by now.
* "octopi" is actually an incorrect usage... I was shocked to learn that.
Who says they aren't, Chuck? Who says they aren't.
Oh man, if octopuses* weren't orphaned at birth, they'd be building a civilization by now.
* "octopi" is actually an incorrect usage... I was shocked to learn that.
Hah, I was thinking it was just octopus or octopi. Octopuses just sounds wrong.
As an aside - if there are ever any books exploring the origins of fantastical creatures through a "scientific" approach... I'm totally spending my money on it. :DEver seen Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?
Or Dixon's Man After Man?
Hah, I was thinking it was just octopus or octopi. Octopuses just sounds wrong.Oh man, if octopuses* weren't orphaned at birth, they'd be building a civilization by now.
* "octopi" is actually an incorrect usage... I was shocked to learn that.
I like to take a page from Bond and call them "Octopussies". But I get cold-stares from people when I do that.
Or Dixon's Man After Man?As an aside - if there are ever any books exploring the origins of fantastical creatures through a "scientific" approach... I'm totally spending my money on it. :DEver seen Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?
I'd skip MaM (which is just plain creepy) and go with his After Man instead.
I like to take a page from Bond and call them "Octopussies". But I get cold-stares from people when I do that.Hah, I was thinking it was just octopus or octopi. Octopuses just sounds wrong.Oh man, if octopuses* weren't orphaned at birth, they'd be building a civilization by now.
* "octopi" is actually an incorrect usage... I was shocked to learn that.
That's another creature for the ecology list.
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Where to place giants in a taxonomy came up recently. In my thinking (not Golarion canon), at some point in prehistory there were pre-human cavemen, probably "Neanderthals." climate shifts, ice age begins. Some migrate south, become modern humans. Some head into deep caves and weather the ice age underground, becoming dwarves. And some bulk up and tough out the ice age cold, becoming giants, hill giants specifically. Now, among dwarves and giants there is an oddly parallel tendency toward elemental worship. Some venerate fire and are gifted with becoming fire giants and azir. Others venerate ice and become frost giant and frost dwarves. A few worship the earth, becoming stone giants and some type of rock dwarves. Homo sapien, Homo subterraneus, and homo gigantus are all closely related.
On another branch of the hominid tree are the elves - olvo sylvanus. Where humans evolved from temprate plains primates, elves come from a northern forest primate. I like to think of halflings as elflings, prairie elves. They pick up a lot of the speak-with-burrowing-mammals type traits formerly associated with gnomes and like in burrow warrens a la hobbits. And orcs come from a fierce mountain primate. To me, this explains why half-orcs and half-lives can exist - not too far removed - and half-dwarves or half- giants could exist, but might also be so close as to just blend, forming a continuous bridge between dwarves, humans, and giants.
The elemental genesis also explains cloud and storm giants, although I'm personally not a huge fan of them, or the proliferation of giant subtypes. Trolls are gigantic, to me, but not "giants.". Gnomes keep the new First World fairy connection, don't need to be part of the taxonomy because they're not native. But, to me, the First World is paralleled by the shadow plane or sometimes Mechanus, either of which could kick out gnome equivalents like dark folk or tinker gnomes.
In modern biology classic taxonomy is nearly extinct. It is just to difficult to get the characteristics to conform. Evolutionary biologists pretty much favor cladistics now.
I am a scientist and I hate imposing science on a classically magic world. I like science to stay far out of fantasy. This is in no way poopooing the idea for others I just don't like it because there are too many conflicting items.
I remember in 2nd edition a biology book was released for the beholder. I hated it. Bringing the levitation to a pseudoscientific level opens lots of more options for beating the beholder. Really though it is impossible to get the biology to work so I just like leaving it at magical rather than naturalistic biology.
Though we do have chimeric DNA in the real world :)
Just my thoughts, and not saying others should not do it if they like.
In modern biology classic taxonomy is nearly extinct. It is just to difficult to get the characteristics to conform. Evolutionary biologists pretty much favor cladistics now.
I am a scientist and I hate imposing science on a classically magic world. I like science to stay far out of fantasy. This is in no way poopooing the idea for others I just don't like it because there are too many conflicting items.
I remember in 2nd edition a biology book was released for the beholder. I hated it. Bringing the levitation to a pseudoscientific level opens lots of more options for beating the beholder. Really though it is impossible to get the biology to work so I just like leaving it at magical rather than naturalistic biology.
Though we do have chimeric DNA in the real world :)
Just my thoughts, and not saying others should not do it if they like.
I partially agree with you. Trying to impose the real world sciences into Golarion is something I'm not in favor of. What I want is something that roughly fills the same purpose, that scholars in Golarion would themselves come up with. It won't be so contrived if done well.
Also, there is a problem with trying to hook all giants together.
It's a subtype.
Although most giants are humanoids, they don't have to be.
In modern biology classic taxonomy is nearly extinct. It is just to difficult to get the characteristics to conform. Evolutionary biologists pretty much favor cladistics now.
I am a scientist and I hate imposing science on a classically magic world. I like science to stay far out of fantasy. This is in no way poopooing the idea for others I just don't like it because there are too many conflicting items.
I remember in 2nd edition a biology book was released for the beholder. I hated it. Bringing the levitation to a pseudoscientific level opens lots of more options for beating the beholder. Really though it is impossible to get the biology to work so I just like leaving it at magical rather than naturalistic biology.
Though we do have chimeric DNA in the real world :)
Just my thoughts, and not saying others should not do it if they like.
I mostly agree with what you're saying. My approach will be more of the approach of a "natural philosophy". Some things are better off left to saying "it's magic". You can't dissect a wizard and find his Magic Missile gland, after all. <grin>
I'm also very aware of cladistics (I brought it up earlier in the thread) and think that it's the only system worth using for a fantasy setting as well as for the real world.
On chimeric DNA - I've seen the program on it twice now and I wonder what the real statistic is for people with chimeric DNA. I mean, what if the only way to detect it were to test your left toe? <laugh>
I mostly agree with what you're saying. My approach will be more of the approach of a "natural philosophy". Some things are better off left to saying "it's magic". You can't dissect a wizard and find his Magic Missile gland, after all. <grin>I'm also very aware of cladistics (I brought it up earlier in the thread) and think that it's the only system worth using for a fantasy setting as well as for the real world.
On chimeric DNA - I've seen the program on it twice now and I wonder what the real statistic is for people with chimeric DNA. I mean, what if the only way to detect it were to test your left toe? <laugh>
Chimeric DNA is completely laboratory made, from a bunch of different sources, used in medicine. My degree is in Molecular Biology and I used to work with it all the time. I left the field though because I am a complete germophobe, and I got tired of working in WHITE labs with UV lights and fans. I switched fields now.
I agree with you on the naturalistic approach. It jars me when game writers for fantasy of an assumed historical period that is not 1900's use genes in discussion. It kind of pulls me out of the fantasy so to speak.
The idea of hereditary component was around in the times assumed by the Pathfinder rules and Golarion, but DNA is a product of the atomic age.
When we started getting close we called it the 'transforming principle' in the 1920's. We were not sure what that was at the time though protein was suspected.
So I enjoy pieces about ecology, descent, and behavior in pre 1900's assumed fantasy, but DNA really is a modern idea. I also get jarred when Monster Rules are scientifically explained. It isn't necessary, and the explanation is usually just a reach.
I like the alchemist as a pseudo-scientist. he makes bombs and it is Assumed he is using a mix of mundane and magical chemicals but there is no effort to explain HOW its done. I think if you are not running science fiction that is where explanation should stop. Say it HAPPENS.
Its like the mediclorions of Star Wars. Suddenly George Lucas needed a scientific mechanism to explain the force (which I just say is magic). So now not anyone can be a Jedi. All Jedi must be symbiotes. What if I kidnap little anakin and culture his mediclorions and inject them into people? Now they can all be Jedi?
More than likely it was just an explanation for George Lucas' crazy immaculate conception idea.
I don't beleive it. I fully bet Shmi Skywalker got gaga over some jedi. She had some drinks they got busy and the JEdi (who presumably would be a powerful one to give off such offspring) realized he messed up, and to save Shmi from heartbreak used the force to make her forget.
So when Qui-gon asks her about the father, she has to say she literally has no idea. You can even see the shame on her face in Phantom Menace.
That is the explanation I am sticking with:)
I assume that you're speaking of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)
There have recently been (at least) two women found that have two separate DNA signatures. One almost lost her children over it because I DNA test proved that she wasn't the mother. They had to culture samples from another part of her body to prove she was.
Here's a link to a story about naturally-occuring chimerism.
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And yes... mediclorions are total crap.
Jedi are "Zen and the Art of Kicking Butt", dammit.
I assume that you're speaking of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)
There have recently been (at least) two women found that have two separate DNA signatures. One almost lost her children over it because I DNA test proved that she wasn't the mother. They had to culture samples from another part of her body to prove she was.
Here's a link to a story about naturally-occuring chimerism.
Ah thank you for this!
I assume that you're speaking of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)
There have recently been (at least) two women found that have two separate DNA signatures. One almost lost her children over it because I DNA test proved that she wasn't the mother. They had to culture samples from another part of her body to prove she was.
Here's a link to a story about naturally-occuring chimerism.
Oh man, there was a show about that chimeric mother being accused of fraud. Crazyiness. It also went on about differing forms of chimerism like mosaicism(which isn't always a type of chimerism) and because a friend of mine had a checker-like pigmentation on her stomach, above-left and below-right of her navel are slightly more tan, I'd suspected she was a chimera lol.
Btw I'm interested to know if anybody IS curious about biology and anatomies of certain creatures. It's one of the things I'm always thinking about in my art so maybe I'll draw one of your ideas =) Some of you anatomy buffs may be interested.
Four armed anatomy
As an aside - if there are ever any books exploring the origins of fantastical creatures through a "scientific" approach... I'm totally spending my money on it. :DEver seen Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials?
Haha, that's hilarious! I JUST borrowed this book from my friend not two days ago. It's great! I love the sketches in the back. I also appreciate how the majority of them are decidedly NOT humanoid.
Sorry I never got back to you guys about my take on this. It's still on my desktop, half-finished. Truth is, I had VERY FORTUNATE circumstances which have been occupying my time lately.
But I'll get back to this as soon as I can. I love this topic of discussion. I have a diagram and everything.