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So it was done in Order of the Stick (I know it's 3.5 but the principles are the same), and I was wondering if rules-wise something like this is perfectly legal and what actual effect it would have in a game, mechanically.
What I'm talking about is when the elf wizard was swallowed whole by a black dragon (I'm not sure if black dragons have the swallow whole feature, but that's not really the point as any creature could be used in this scenario as long as they have swallow whole) and the black dragon was instantly killed when the wizard polymorphed himself into a creature the same size as the dragon (in this case, another [pink] dragon), causing him to basically explode.
I love OotS, but more times than I can count have they made me mutter "huh" with an elevated eyebrow.
So it was done in Order of the Stick (I know it's 3.5 but the principles are the same), and I was wondering if rules-wise something like this is perfectly legal and what actual effect it would have in a game, mechanically.
What I'm talking about is when the elf wizard was swallowed whole by a black dragon (I'm not sure if black dragons have the swallow whole feature, but that's not really the point as any creature could be used in this scenario as long as they have swallow whole) and the black dragon was instantly killed when the wizard polymorphed himself into a creature the same size as the dragon (in this case, another [pink] dragon), causing him to basically explode.
I love OotS, but more times than I can count have they made me mutter "huh" with an elevated eyebrow.
All of the spells I know of that change size, such as Enlarge Person and Righteous Might, include the following or something similar;
"If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it--the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."
Polymorph in general, does not as far as I can determine.
I'd still probably assume it was true though, unless as the GM I thought it would particularly awesome to play it otherwise.
EDIT: Especially if it were a case like the one in question, where one character is clearly at an advantage; they should be able to describe their victory as awesomely as possible :)
Seems the best V. could do in that situation (according to the rules) would be to turn into a dragon and make a grapple check to deal damage. The spell would help V by increasing strength, and giving a natural attack.
I think a key element of that part of the story was that V had the soul splice, and was using 10th level magic probably as spell-like abilities. I think it was intended to represent a situation where he-she had abilities beyond the normal scope of the rules.
Polymorph can give you many advantages, but it doesn't let you "pop" creatures that swallow you whole.
Actually read the wording carefully.
"If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it--the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."
Note the word crush is used, and not explode or any other verb or adjective.
So by strictly following the wording, you could do it.
I think this one gets by on Rule of Cool and the fact that Shapechange is a 9th level spell. The soul splice probably helped too.
If it actually came up in game, it would be an on-the-spot decision for me.
It's a webcomic. It doesn't run strictly by the rules except when necessary to make a joke about them.
So by strictly following the wording, you could do it.
Except for the part that says the shape-changing character must succeed "a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process". As far as I know, creatures don't have a break DC.
It seems logical to me that the creature growing inside another creature's gut is going to hurt itself in the process just as much, if not more so, than the creature out of which it's trying to burst. I'd likely just compare the two creatures' hit point totals, and deal an equal amount of damage to both creatures equal to the amount needed to kill the lesser of the two. If the interior creature dies first, then the exterior creature simply suffers a terrible bout of indigestion. If the exterior creature dies first however, then it explodes as depicted and the interior creature is freed, though still badly wounded.
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Actually read the wording carefully.
"If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, the creature attains the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using its increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If it fails, it is constrained without harm by the materials enclosing it--the spell cannot be used to crush a creature by increasing its size."Note the word crush is used, and not explode or any other verb or adjective.
So by strictly following the wording, you could do it.
I think the crush line referes to using this offensively, like enlarging someone inside a cage, they either break out, or the spell doesn't work, but they don't get crushed by suddenly becoming too big for the enviroment..
On the other hand "Make a Strength check to burst any enclosures in the process." That I'd rule as sploding whatever ate a player.
I'll go with the interpretation that polymorph won't work if there is not enough space for a new shape.
i vote splat, with break dc based on the creature's hp and dr
LOL.
When breaking things with shear strength, you get a size modifier (Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16) to your check.
That means that an 8 strength wizard turning into a huge dragon with Form of the Dragon III would have a +12 modifier to do so.
Breaking down a strong door or bursting rope bonds (note the plural) is DC 23. Bending an iron bar is DC 24 :)
I doubt bursting a flesh and blood creature from the inside is any harder than knocking down a strong door, bursting several layers of rope, or bending an iron bar.
Other DCs for Comparison Purposes
Break down simple door 13
Break down good door 18
Break down strong door 23
Burst rope bonds 23
Bend iron bars 24
Break down barred door 25
Burst chain bonds 26
Break down iron door 28
find something with hardness equal to the creature's DR, compensate for DR that isn't /adamantine, /epic or /- being less effective than hardness. compare hitpoints per inch of material to remaining hp of creature. calculate DC. if polymorphing mage beats DC, the creature dies.
You probably can't explode out of it like V. did, but in order to kill the critter what swallowed you, you probably only need to burst its stomach; then you can claw/chew your way out as it dies of massive organ trauma and internal hemorraging. Less dramatic, but still effective.
you could always turn into a dire porcupine. that'd do the job, particularly if you could turn into a huge or gargantian version.
Don't forget the need for a concentration check to cast a spell while getting acid-burns all over your body from digestive fluids.
Don't forget the need for a concentration check to cast a spell while getting acid-burns all over your body from digestive fluids.
I also think you need to succeed at a monstrously hard concentration check for being grappled/pinned.
LOL.
When breaking things with shear strength, you get a size modifier (Fine –16, Diminutive –12, Tiny –8, Small –4, Large +4, Huge +8, Gargantuan +12, Colossal +16) to your check.
That means that an 8 strength wizard turning into a huge dragon with Form of the Dragon III would have a +12 modifier to do so.
Breaking down a strong door or bursting rope bonds (note the plural) is DC 23. Bending an iron bar is DC 24 :)
I doubt bursting a flesh and blood creature from the inside is any harder than knocking down a strong door, bursting several layers of rope, or bending an iron bar.
Other DCs for Comparison Purposes
Break down simple door 13
Break down good door 18
Break down strong door 23
Burst rope bonds 23
Bend iron bars 24
Break down barred door 25
Burst chain bonds 26
Break down iron door 28
But does he have the size modifier at the time of the check?
If you're sitting in a Giant Frog's belly and you Polymorph into a Gargantuan creature, do you get to claim the bonus for being that immense when you've expanded to fill the frog's stomach and you begin to strain against it?
But does he have the size modifier at the time of the check?
If you're sitting in a Giant Frog's belly and you Polymorph into a Gargantuan creature, do you get to claim the bonus for being that immense when you've expanded to fill the frog's stomach and you begin to strain against it?
If enlarge person is any indicator, then yes, you DO get the spell's bonuses immediately upon making the check.
V has played with custom spells, so it's not beyond him to make one for just such an occasion.
I doubt bursting a flesh and blood creature from the inside is any harder than knocking down a strong door, bursting several layers of rope, or bending an iron bar.
Remember though that those doors are meant to open, you're not taking out the entire thing, just the weakest part of the door or more likely the jam where its connected to the wall. I can bust in a door, i can break a persons arm, but i cannot rip someones arm completely out of its socket and i don't know if there's anyone who can.
i can break a persons arm, but i cannot rip someones arm completely out of its socket and i don't know if there's anyone who can.
Wookiees are known to do that.
I doubt bursting a flesh and blood creature from the inside is any harder than knocking down a strong door, bursting several layers of rope, or bending an iron bar.Remember though that those doors are meant to open, you're not taking out the entire thing, just the weakest part of the door or more likely the jam where its connected to the wall. I can bust in a door, i can break a persons arm, but i cannot rip someones arm completely out of its socket and i don't know if there's anyone who can.
Gorillas can rip peoples' arms off, and they have about 19 strength. That's only a +8 modifier (assuming large size).
If I have a +12 modifier, it's safe to say I could theoretically rip someone's arm off too. If I can do that from the outside, I can certainly do worse from the inside.
The PG version of the real thing. I'd say it'd be multiple attempts breaking vs bone, but penalized as if they're pinned. From the video (either version), there was a bit of pain and then the break.