RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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During a kendo seminar many years ago, I had a chance to study isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu, though just for a few hours, so I'm by no means an expert. In this particular ryu, you hold the kama (sickle) in your right hand, sometimes in a sort of a reverse grip for blocking and stabbing (not so much cutting but it's an option).
You keep most of the chain coiled in your left hand, and only maybe two feet of the chain hangs loose, with a lead weight at the end. It's mostly intended for wrapping around the opponent's weapon, limb or neck. Sometimes you also use it as a bludgeon; I remember a particularly painful kata where you side-step and hit the opponent's back with it.
You don't swing the lead weight around using the whole length of the chain; you only release it sometimes when you need the extra length for the attack. The lead weight end is a one-shot weapon in the sense that if you miss, you're not going to have a chance to regain the use of that end until the fight is over. You're going to kill the foe with the kama or get very quickly killed yourself.
You never, ever, ever swing the kama end using the chain. It doesn't work. That's only for anime...
what I described above applies to one particular ryu, and well, is useful only if you want to houserule the weapon into something more realistic than what you see in the book.
When a player wanted to make a kusarigama-wielding character some time ago, I had a look at the stats and could only shake my head in disbelief. It's nearly impossible to tell how it's supposed to work in PF, and of course, you're probably going to have to ignore realism. Then again, that goes for the majority of the weapons in D&D/PF.
The actual real world weapon is used by holding the sickle in one hand and the chain in the other.
The Isshin-ryu practicioners will beg to differ. Both sides can be used for ranged attacks, which are mostly distraction yes, but also to disarm attempts.
The weight is the main ranged attack on most techniques, because it allows a quick scythe attack following the distraction or grapple, but there are specific techniques that swing the scythe at the enemy with the purpose of harming, it is just as effective as throwing a knife at them though.Any opponent wielding a bladed weapon will quickly try to get rid of the weight, as they know it can be used to disarm them.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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The actual real world weapon is used by holding the sickle in one hand and the chain in the other.The Isshin-ryu practicioners will beg to differ. Both sides can be used for ranged attacks, which are mostly distraction yes, but also to disarm attempts.
The weight is the main ranged attack on most techniques, because it allows a quick scythe attack following the distraction or grapple, but there are specific techniques that swing the scythe at the enemy with the purpose of harming, it is just as effective as throwing a knife at them though.Any opponent wielding a bladed weapon will quickly try to get rid of the weight, as they know it can be used to disarm them.
Hmm, it may well be that there are ranged sickle attacks in the more obscure series of katas. Never seen one though. I don't think the shape and balance of the isshin-ryu kusarigama lends itself well for that type of attacks. Though someone with a lot of practice might be able to pull that off. I bet it's the surprise value more than anything why someone would use that kind of technique.
. I bet it's the surprise value more than anything why someone would use that kind of technique.
You just translated "kusarigama" :P
Every video I have found uses the ball end as a reach weapon, and it is not really possible to TWF with it despite it being a double weapon. Of course the buckler does not match the real life version either so Paizo may ignore how the real weapon works. I hope they answer this.
this is my own interpretation of how the weapon works in game based on my understanding of how the weapon works in real life.
the blunt end has reach but the bladed end doesn't.
I am not sure the ball and chain cant be used adjacently. By RAW it cant but then again, by RAW neither can the kama just because the weapon has the Reach property and no special clause allowing use in adjacent spaces. The intent may have been for the ball and chain to function something like the whip where it can attack at 0-10' and allow it to actually be used as a double weapon in melee. Otherwise it is barely worthwhile to call it a double weapon for all the rare chances to attack one opponent at 5' from you and a separate target at 10'. It would have been better to just call it a two handed weapon that does 1D3 B at 10' and 1D6 S against adjacent foes and drop the double property all together.Okay...
So I guess this is how the Kusarigama is supposed to work...
The Sickle end functions the same as a Kama.
And the chain end is a reach weapon.
When used as a double weapon, you essentially need to divide your attacks between two targets.
The Kama attacks a target 5' away and the chain hits a target 10' away.
The chain end is also useful for attacks of opportunity at reach as well.I think we're all mostly in agreement yea?
I'd have to double check the rules. but couldn't you just attack with the reach end, move 5 foot forward and then attack with the sickle?
To be honest, the weight (not the chain, it just connects the kama with the weight), should be able to be used against adjacent targets, as the wielder controls the extension of his chain using his hands.
And it really is not that uncommon for the wielder to be within 5 feet of his adversary, specially when fighting against someone using a katana or another bladed weapon. The wielder will most likely have to whirl the weight above his head in an attempt to gain distance from his adversary as much as possible.
Okay...
So I guess this is how the Kusarigama is supposed to work...
The Sickle end functions the same as a Kama.
And the chain end is a reach weapon.
When used as a double weapon, you essentially need to divide your attacks between two targets.
The Kama attacks a target 5' away and the chain hits a target 10' away.
The chain end is also useful for attacks of opportunity at reach as well.I think we're all mostly in agreement yea?
This is precisely how our group has used it, and seems to be the intent. And yes, that makes it an especially weird/cool weapon.
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I don't think Kusarigama is the name of the specific magic weapon, in fact, the adventure has its specific name as Dancing Wasp, which is a +1 Kusarigama that can summon giant wasps by twirling the weapon above your own head >.>
Gonna get my hands on the other Jade Regent books, maybe one of them will hold more clarification in an enemy's statblock as to what the Kusarigama actually does XD
My Calistrian-worshipping Ninja in that adventure was bitterly disappointed the weapon was not finessable.
At least it isn't the rope dart. As someone who plays around with one, Ultimate Combat botched it up. Typically your off hand will have the rope tied around it in a loose slip knot, and I don't know of any technique that actually lets go of it. Also, I've never seen a rope longer than 4 meters personally. I'm sure you could go longer if you really wanted, but standard should be 10' reach, maybe 15'. The dart head can also get going pretty fast, I wouldn't go up to d6 damage, but allowing 1½ Str to damage would be fine if you asked me.
As for the kusarigama, since the description doesn't list any further rules, I'd say it is just a double weapon, with disarm and trip, 10' reach with either end, bludgeoning or piercing with either end. No specific rules for either end, nothing more, nothing less.
I've been scouring the forums and not finding answers. Ultimately, I've decided to look to the double chained kama and the meteor hammer in order to figure out how the weapon worked. The rope dart and sansetsukon also come into play.
The sickle is a kama, and can be used as a kama, and can also be thrown to make a single reach atrack, as either a melee or thown attack. That means one can use weapon finesse with it, and can attack at range using dex as well.
When attacking at range, the weapon is not considered a double weapon, as per the double chained kama description. It can still be used as a reach weapon with flurry of blows, similar to a rope dart, and the errata that a monk can use a single two handed weapon as part of a flurry of blows.
When being used as a reach weapon, I would apply 1.5 x str Mod to damage, as one would with the sansetsukon and the meteor hammer. It's a two handed reach weapon. When being used as a double weapon, it's more akin to using two separate weapons. I would let the player designate which weapon is in the primary hand.
When attacking at range with the ball end, the kama provides a plus 1 shield bonus to AC, as described in the meteor hammer description, and in the kusarigama section where the kama end is described as being used to block.
The kama and ball ends can be used in similar ways, except the ball end can also be used to grapple, but does not provide a shield bonus when the kama is being used as a reach weapon.
The kama does more damage than the ball end. The kama does slashing damage, while the ball does bludgeoning damage.
What do you guys think? Is that a fair interpretation, given the ambiguity of the kusarigama description, and the text of other weapons that are described similarly?
Edit. Looking at the iconic ninja, she does not apply weapon finesse to the kusarigama, and holds the sickle in the off hand. It would seem that the ball does more damage than the sickle, which is in line with the table entry, of S/B. But if the sickle is a light weapon being held in the off hand, then it should be eligible for weapon finesse.
Having faced a K while dabbling in Kendo in the 70s, it is a highly over rated weapon. The main strengths are novelty (rarely seen), difficult to see (in anything but good light, the spinning weight is just shy of invisible, but then my eyesight stinks), velocity (current matches don't allow unpadded blades or 'hard' weights) and sudden reach. Like all 'chain' weapons, it is vulnerable to tight spaces (needs the room for momentum on the weight), an agile or armored opponent (a thrown kama at that range is horridly unstable and 'hooking' is a suicidal move as it pulls your opponent in close, good with spear, lousy against a wakasashi in the belt), hard to use against multiple opponents, hard to stand next to an ally, putting your weapon in your opponent's reach (counter grabbing is a simple technique), the wielder has to have either a secure grip (hard to discard the K) or a loose grip (easier to be disarmed and more. I beat the guy who was touring in the mid 70s with a five minute instruction by my Kendo sensei (I was the worst student), 3/5. Against a properly trained opponent, the wielder is vulnerable at that close a range to a sudden rush or a number of other attacks (I hate judo).
Enjoyed the strawman video, the K was expertly handled, but the target was little more than a post to practice against.
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Kama one handed or TWF: As per Kama.
Kama two-handed: As per Double-Chained Kama (i.e. add reach)
Ball one handed or TWF: 1d3 B, monk, trip, grapple
Ball two-handed: 1d3 B, monk, trip, grapple, reach
The only part of that which seems questionable to me is whether the ball should have the 'trip' feature. Everything else seems clear from comparing the Kusarigama to the Double-Chained Kama.
Torbyne has it.
It is a double, grapple, monk, reach, trip weapon.
In all modes it has reach. You can use it as a double weapon, or pick one end to use 2 handed. Both ends have all properties (grapple, monk, reach, trip).
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The issue is that you are looking at other weapons not called out in the rules for the Kusarigama.
Yes. This is called 'precedent' and/or 'logical consistency'.
The Kusarigama doesnt even say it is part Kama, it instead calls itself a Sickle which despite what we know of the real world is a separate statted out weapon from the same original source as the Kama.
The Kama description also says that it is a sickle. The stats of the two weapons are also identical... save that the sickle costs 3x as much and isn't a monk weapon. Finally, the '-gama' bit in the name there... is just an alternate spelling of kama.
What you have posted is a fine and functional house rule that violates the actual rules in the book for the weapon.
It only 'violates' a strictly literal reading of a limited portion of the text in isolation from everything else we know about the game and the world it is based on... which is an inherently flawed way of interpreting the rules (leading to, 'you can still act while dead' and other craziness).
For reference. Bucklers. just what the crap, bucklers dont obstruct the use of your hand and cant be swung as a weapon? What the crap is that, we know that is not what bucklers are or how they are used but we accept that in Pathfinder you still get your free hand with one.
Actually, the term 'buckler' was historically used for both types of shield. Yes, it was far more common as the hand held punching shield and the wrist strapped version might more often be called a 'targe'... but the term and its use in Pathfinder IS essentially accurate.
With all due respect to your expertise, PF is a terrible simulator (e.g. blades too heavy, loading too fast), and we should be figuring out how it works on PF terms, rather than dismissing it because of poor IRL stats.
I personally go with reach XOR twf with either end, finessable in either form, trip on sickle, disarm on ball.
Amusing. Go look at the dreaded Katana threads. And do not cite me having 'expertise'. I noted that I was the worst student in the class. And D&D has always been abstract at best, so I agree with you there. The reason to have a K is in the coolness factor and to replicate some of the myth. If you're just creating a purely fantasy weapon, have at it. The posts I was trying to add facts to were all about how the real weapon is used.
In my game and several I play in, EWP grants you 'tricks' valid for that weapon, many of which are otherwise sub-par in some way. A sword our Fighter picked up has no guard of any type, no 'fighting defensively'. A piece of *, but it is enchanted and has an EWP bonus I do not know.
Hello. Yeah the undead wraith looking forum user just necro'd this topic. Feel free to hit the FAQ button. That is all. :)