It kind of goes without saying that angels and devils hate each other and Azatas and Demons don't exactly see eye to eye. After all good and evil are opposites that almost always have conflicting interests and methods, but can the same be said for the forces of law and chaos? Do Angels and Azatas dislike each other as much as they do Devils and Demons respectively? Do the Angels view Demons as the ultimate perversion and being even worse than devils? Are the conflicting forces of Law and Chaos as important to the methodologies of these creatures as the forces of Good and Evil?
There is rarely much agreement about what law vs chaos actually means.
There is rarely much agreement about what law vs chaos actually means.
Yeah I know what you mean, I find myself changing my opinion of it every couple of months.
It depends. There are times when Archons and Devils will work towards the same goal (when fighting against demons of the Abyss or proteans of the Maelstrom for instance). Proteans and Azata might cooperate against Devils or even demons. Axiomites and Inevitables might work with both devils and archons in equal measure to fight anything on the Chaos side of things, but yet at the same time they might be willing to deal with Azata and give them a partial pass if they keep to themselves and out of their affairs and sphere of influence.
Good is less likely to fight good over issues of methodology. Archons and Azata might view each other as rigid and foolish or flighty and foolish respectively, but being good outweighs their differences on the Law/Chaos side most of the time. Devils and demons heck no, because evil tends to fall upon itself and as a result they'll brutalize one another over the Law/Chaos differences.
Golarion's outer planes are a lot more nuanced and dynamic than the often monolithic paradigm of the Blood War in the Great Wheel/AD&D cosmology however, and as a result you can find some rather odd befellows at times.
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If I had to use alignment, this is the explanation of it I would employ.
That is kinda what I figured from the start Todd it just always seemed to me that good verses evil was a bigger deal, but I wasn't entirely sure. TOZ that article is pretty insightful, thanks for sharing.
nice article. Best explanation of lawful vs. chaotic I've seen.
I agree. I like to use it for my own games. However, it's something you have to take going in from the start and can't be introduced partway through a game as one person's philosophy, as it does require some reworking of the attitudes of the cosmos.
Alignment is silly.
I agree with this dwarves are funner to play and I'm upset that not many people want to play them. I'm assuming you enjoy dwarves do you not? I think paizo should adopt something 4e did right which is optional racial attributes. That and give racial alternatives that aren't extremely conditional. As for the topic at hand I feel that the alignment system has pigeon holed access to spells, access to items, and causes stereotypes.
It kind of goes without saying that angels and devils hate each other and Azatas and Demons don't exactly see eye to eye. After all good and evil are opposites that almost always have conflicting interests and methods, but can the same be said for the forces of law and chaos? Do Angels and Azatas dislike each other as much as they do Devils and Demons respectively? Do the Angels view Demons as the ultimate perversion and being even worse than devils? Are the conflicting forces of Law and Chaos as important to the methodologies of these creatures as the forces of Good and Evil?
I don't mind the good versus evil in my games. Especially when a character slides into evil, and someone sticks up for something greater than themselves, tries to protect folk against a lawful evil.
What is a little more amusing in my Isger game, is lawful good sliding somewhat into neutral good, being radically opposed to lawful evil and lawful neutral. Monks versus hellknights.
Chaotic good going against lawful evil or indoctrinated puppets is another old one.
Good most certainly can fight one another. The battle is usually lawful good trying to push chaotic good into accepting something that they cannot abide. Paladins versus barbs.
Neutral can get kicked around a lot by more powerful forces, and neutral or chaotic neutral can also easily slide into strong evil.
Lawful good can greatly offend druidic neutrality, and even two lawful goods can strongly clash if their intentions and backgrounds are quite different.
I keep alignment, I find it is an exciting discussion, aids storytelling, can set the tone, and it is often not quite so simple, and just one part of the character of pcs and npcss.
So sue me, but I love the 3X3 alignment system.
I just love the legacy of the whole thing. The Blood War, Mechanus, lengthy session arguments about what being chaotic neutral means. I love calling my boss lawful evil and having people who have not gamed in 20 years giggle about it. I love "is Stannis Lawful Neutral?" debates. It's a tradition, and while I freely admit that traditions should not survive just on that basis, it is one that I enjoy.
Application-wise, yes, mature players don't need it. But I don't play with many of them. I'm able to use alignment as a GM to get nonroleplayers to take baby steps in the direction of character concept. It's a tool.
Obviously-contrived, highly-flawed system? Sure. But I'd prefer a flawed system that forces people to consider morality from multiple angles to none at all. There's little else in the gaming world that has reached the big leagues of social discussion as much as alignment- and I feel we should be proud of the home town kid who made it so far!
We have all had a lawful evil boss or a "superior" quite convinced of their superiority. Since the alignment system can be used for such archetypes, it is useful to me in games.
I play humans.
I do too, however that's because of how bad dwarves stats are and that people make fun of dwarves. Mostly their women and their drinking habits.
If I had to use alignment, this is the explanation of it I would employ.
CfT is amazing. Totally with you.
So sue me, but I love the 3X3 alignment system.
Alright, i will. save vs red tape (reflex, dc 17).
*Casts extended summon lawyer IV*|
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From All About Alignment Part II.
Why did Chainmail and D&D use Law and Chaos to describe the warring factions? Many people mistakenly credit this to Michael Moorcock and the Elric series, but the origin actually comes from Poul Anderson's classic Three Hearts and Three Lions:
"[He] got the idea that a perpetual struggle went on between primeval forces of Law and Chaos... Humans were the chief agents on earth of Law, though some of them were so only unconsciously, and some, witches and warlocks, and evildoers, had sold out to Chaos. A few nonhuman beings also stood for Law. Ranged against them were almost the whole Middle World, which seemed to include realms like Faerie, Trollheim, and the Giants - an actual creation of Chaos. Wars among men, such as the long-drawn struggle between the Saracens and the Holy Empire, aided Chaos; under Law, all men would live in peace and order and that liberty which only Law could give meaning. But this was so alien to Middle Worlders that they were forever working to prevent it and extend their own shadowy dominion."
Six seconds before a lawyer appears?
Heh, what an amateur.
he was the best i could get on short notice. *shrugs*
That is kinda what I figured from the start Todd it just always seemed to me that good verses evil was a bigger deal, but I wasn't entirely sure. TOZ that article is pretty insightful, thanks for sharing.
For the most part it always has been, with slender exception. It's easier to understand the Good v Evil side of things, with Law and Chaos being harder to conceptualize. As a result I tried to emphasive a more varied set of conflicts in Paizo's planes, such as the proteans hatred of the Abyss as an abomination unto true Chaos, and periodic archon and inevitable crusades into the Maelstrom as being different from the largely two-sided Blood War (that I still adore and came into the game with).