So my player is a 7th lvl ranger with magic +2 composite longbow(+4 str bonus his strength bonus is only +3) as well as bracers of archery, greater. So when he uses his bow normally he is +13/+8 to hit and deals 1d8+6 dmg. Ok now if he is using manyshot, rapid shot, point blank shot, and deadly aim he becomes +10/+10/+5 and in damage he is 1d8+11. My question is does he get the 1d8+11 on his second arrow fired with manyshot or is all the other feat damage precision damage?
All the bonus damage applies as long as you still met the conditions. So yes if your character is within 30 feet of the target.
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Damage is only precision damage if it says it is precision damage. For instance, if he had a level of rogue, he'd deal an extra 1d6 on all attacks other than the manyshot, situation allowing.
None of the damage you have put forth is precision, so it applies on all arrows. Also, keep in mind the -2 penalty to hit when using a bow with a higher strength rating than your own strength.
Ok archers are overpowered
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Time for some enemy archers hehe
Archers deal more consistent damage because of range. However melee typically can take more hits and do more burst damage.
So wait -- he's spent four feats, been allowed more than what he should have for wealth by level (greater bracers of archery are 25,000gp a level 7 character should have 23,500gp total and this doesn't include the 8,800gp for the bow), and he's the problem?
Honestly with only a +8 to hit with his blitz he's not looking that good on his attack rolls. I'm assuming he took precise shot and improved precise shot as his ranger feats.
I thought that deadly aim
** spoiler omitted **
is sort of worded as precision damage as is point blank shot. DMMV, but I don't apply point blank to the second arrow damage from manyshot. I did see something in the elves of golarion guide that for a +1 bonus, your second arrow from manyshot would deal 1/2 precise and crit damage.
Flavor text doesn't determine mechanics.
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Remember that each of those shots is going to be subject to DR individually, which can massively decrease that oh-so-good (hah!) damage.
Yes, you can use special materials and/or Clustered Shots (feat) to bypass many forms of DR, but that increases the cost of archery.
Remember that a melee Barbarian, using a two-handed weapon, is going to massively out-damage that archer, even with one less attack.
Str 18
Lvl 7
Raging
Power Attack
Weapon Focus
+2 Greataxe (so the crit chances are the same)
+7 BAB
+2 enhancement
+4 Str
-1 Raging
+2 Rage Str boost
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 Power Attack
Total: +13/+8 to hit
+6 Str
+2 enhancement
+2 Rage Str boost
+6 Power Attack
Total: 1d12+16
So:
3d8+33, if you hit on all attacks, 46.5 damage average, before DR
2d12+32, if he hits on all attacks, 45 damage average, before DR
If DR applies, the archer's damage is reduced by 1.5 times as much as the Barbarian's damage is. Assuming a DR5/-, that would become:
Archer: 31.5 average damage
Barbarian: 35 average damage
Overall difference? Pretty much minimal.
Note that the Barbarian hits better at the higher damage value, and that I did not go all-out after damage or to-hit bonuses for the Barbarian. Indeed, that Barbarian is doing just as well, if not better, with 2 open feats, and staying well within standard WbL.
At the end of the day I really think it's the fact that wealth by level has been borked at your table that's causing him to look so good. Having a +2 bow and greater bracers of archery is providing a general +3 better to hit and +2 better damage than 'normal' for that level. The fact that the bow is over rated for him is really hurting him more than helping.
Remember that each of those shots is going to be subject to DR individually, which can massively decrease that oh-so-good (hah!) damage.
Yes, you can use special materials and/or Clustered Shots (feat) to bypass many forms of DR, but that increases the cost of archery.
Remember that a melee Barbarian, using a two-handed weapon, is going to massively out-damage that archer, even with one less attack.
Str 18
Lvl 7
Raging
Power Attack
Weapon Focus+2 Greataxe (so the crit chances are the same)
+7 BAB
+2 enhancement
+4 Str
-1 Raging
+2 Rage Str boost
+1 Weapon Focus
-2 Power Attack
Total: +13/+8 to hit+6 Str
+2 enhancement
+2 Rage Str boost
+6 Power Attack
Total: 1d12+16So:
3d8+33, if you hit on all attacks, 46.5 damage average, before DR
2d12+32, if he hits on all attacks, 45 damage average, before DRIf DR applies, the archer's damage is reduced by 1.5 times as much as the Barbarian's damage is. Assuming a DR5/-, that would become:
Archer: 31.5 average damage
Barbarian: 35 average damageOverall difference? Pretty much minimal.
Note that the Barbarian hits better at the higher damage value, and that I did not go all-out after damage or to-hit bonuses for the Barbarian. Indeed, that Barbarian is doing just as well, if not better, with 2 open feats, and staying well within standard WbL.
cluster shots.
Martial types are underpowered. If the archer is dealing 50-60 damage at a low level, the kneejerk reaction is that they must obviously be overpowered, but what they have in damage, they lack in versatility.
Spellcasters can easily incapacitate on one failed save. That's basically equivilant to dealing 50+ damage, and they have other stuff besides the one trick.
Although archer NPCs, ouch.
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Yes, you can use special materials and/or Clustered Shots (feat) to bypass many forms of DR, but that increases the cost of archery.cluster shots.
And I mentioned that, and, by adding yet another feat, you give that Barbarian 3 more feats to use to increase his damage.
Add in that 25K gp for items, and the Barbarian is still going to be doing better damage, overall, than the archer.
Archers are overpowered? Shya right.
At low levels, a charging Barbarian or melee Fighter can be out-damaging the Archer.
At mid-levels, the Archer continues to lose ground, as there are a lot more things for melee-types than ranged-types, both feats and items.
At high levels, the Archer is likely to be borked, entirely, in very easy ways:
Wall of Wind
Obscuring Mists
Wall of Fog
Darkness
Deeper Darkness
Blindness/Deafness
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone
Blur
Displacement
Invisibility
Protection from Arrows
Heck, some of those are available at fairly low levels, so an arcgher could spend a lot of his career using a melee weapon sub-optimally.
At low levels, basing an Archer screws him up, especially with Step Up (feat) on the opponent basing the archer. Even then, only dedicated Archer Rangers, Archer Fighters and Zen Archer Monks can deal with being based, and even then that has to burn a feat choice for the Fighter & Ranger.
You pointed out a lot of cool spells so let me tell you this. Those also hamper melee. -gasp- It's like there are counters to characters or something. Besides zen archers are the coolest.
Wind Wall doesn't hamper melee. Obscuring Mist and Wall of Fog are of much less concern for melee. Protection from Arrows... really? you want to say that bothers melee in the slightest?
Good luck charging something you can't see.
I honestly don't think it can be done, as you must charge to the nearest square from which you can make an attack. If you can't even pick out which square that is, then I dare say you can't charge said (unseen) target. Also, not being able to see has a bad habit of slowing your movement, which can kill a charge just as easily.
What's a pounce build without his pounce?
"So my player is a 7th lvl ranger with magic +2 composite longbow(+4 str bonus his strength bonus is only +3) as well as bracers of archery, greater. So when he uses his bow normally he is +13/+8 to hit and deals 1d8+6 dmg. Ok now if he is using manyshot, rapid shot, point blank shot, and deadly aim he becomes +10/+10/+5 and in damage he is 1d8+11. My question is does he get the 1d8+11 on his second arrow fired with manyshot or is all the other feat damage precision damage?"
Ok - a few things
First - If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it.
Second - using the info above the rangers dex is 14 or 15
Third - Rapid Shot -2, Deadly Aim -2, Bow pull -2 = -6 to hit
so the ranger gets +7BAB, +2dex, +2bow, +2bracers +1point blank = +14/+9
+14/+9 -6 = +8/+3
so total bonus to hit is +8/+8/+3
Fourth - damage is pretty straight forword +5bow (Enhancement + str), +4 deadly aim, +1 point blank, +1 bracers = +11 total to damage.
Fifth - Technically RAW - none of this damage is precision based damage, so yes he should get the full +11 on damage (I agree that the text of the various feats involved heavily imply precision but technically all of the feat bonuses are un-named bonuses. I don't think that a DM would be wrong to rule the bonuses from deadly aim and point blank as precision damage though).
six - Respectively, the argument of wealth by level is weak. WBL is a computer gamer concept/algorithm. It is perhaps the thing I like least about the d20 system (for the record, I like quite a bit about the d20 system) WBL - plants unrealistic expectations in the minds of players and essentially gives the players a "means" of trying to strongarm the DM into giving out a requisite amount of treasure. Its BS - a DM should tailor treasure gain according to his campaign style not some phony concept meant to appease the instant gratification players of today.
seven - even if you use WBL, the parties caster/crafter could easily make the bracers and or the bow and still fall within the WBL guidelines. DC for bracers is 5 + CL 8 +5 missing pre req = DC 18 or 10 + cl 8 +5 missing pre req = DC 23 (depending on which page of the core book you use to determine the base DC for crafting magical items. The caster lets say conservative int 14 = +2, 7th level like his buddy so 7 ranks in spell craft, +3 for class skill, +2 int stat, casts guidence right before the craft check +1 and takes 10 = +23 (I should point out that Mr. James Jacobs has posted that he believes that the base DC to craft magical items should be 5 + CL of the item and also has posted that taking 10 should be allowed). (both decisions I disagree with but my name is not on the book and even a cursory look at the math shows that in almost all cases a by allowing both of those options a crafter can almost always skip a pre-req and will never result in a cursed item unless he is trying to do some way jacked out stuff).
Lastly - I will say that yes, to many the archer build seems broken but it is not, a melee build based on str and two-handed weapons easily outmatches the damage potential of the archer, not to mention the many spells or tactics that effectively reduce archery to spittting into a hurricane. Also, this character had to pour every feat he had into this so that leaves other areas where he is vulnerable; plus at his level more and more of the monsters will have some type of DR and piercing weapons in general, suck at bypassing DR
If you're doubling or tripling WBL, then yes, you're going to bork your game. You have to up the EPL of the party, and adjust the CR ratings accordingly for enemies.
Having said that, Archers are always powerful. They get economy of action (they can more often make full attacks than melee guys can).
Wind Wall doesn't hamper melee. Obscuring Mist and Wall of Fog are of much less concern for melee. Protection from Arrows... really? you want to say that bothers melee in the slightest?
Sorry I should of said some of them. My point was that there are spells that counter melee as well. Thank you for picking apart my words spalding. ;P
Archers are not overpowered, but they are powerful. Just like well-built melee builds, they can deal out good damage and can do so fairly consistently (especially when put on horseback...they can move and get full attacks).
I've used fighter archers, ranger archers, and inquisitor archers against my PC's (although not in multiples as that would be a TPK in the making most likely) and they have always been effective enemy combatants. Most recently, a ranger archer had cover and distance (and altitude) against the PC's at long range and took a pot shot at the lead PC and managed to crit him. I forgot that bows did triple damage or else he would have killed the PC (CR 8 npc versus level 8 PC barbarian).
Be as wary of archers as you would any other powerful melee character.
Not a problem! Yes there are many spells though that can hamper an ill prepared combatant. Fly and levitate are two quick ones that can mess a melee monster up.
There's also the problem of firing into melee. Even with precise shot, bad guys in melee with your party can get +4 to AC due to soft cover, so that can chew into an archer's ability to inflict damage.
There's also the problem of firing into melee. Even with precise shot, bad guys in melee with your party can get +4 to AC due to soft cover, so that can chew into an archer's ability to inflict damage.
I'm aware of this as well. However my DM doesn't and I don't care if he doesn't because it's a dumb rule and he likes to use archers as well. I think it's a dumb rule because of the fact that archers have a ton of feat taxes already to function properly they don't need anymore.
There's also the problem of firing into melee. Even with precise shot, bad guys in melee with your party can get +4 to AC due to soft cover, so that can chew into an archer's ability to inflict damage.
If your DM allows 3.5 material, in the Magic Item Compendium there are Goggles of Foe Finding that negate all but total cover for 2500gp.
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There's also the problem of firing into melee. Even with precise shot, bad guys in melee with your party can get +4 to AC due to soft cover, so that can chew into an archer's ability to inflict damage.If your DM allows 3.5 material, in the Magic Item Compendium there are Goggles of Foe Finding that negate all but total cover for 2500gp.
If you are including 3.5 material, don't forget Coordinated Shot from (I think) the Miniatures Handbook. It lets you ignore cover from your allies, and, with the PHB2 rebuilding rules, was often used as a step along the route to Improved Precise Shot..
So wait -- he's spent four feats, been allowed more than what he should have for wealth by level (greater bracers of archery are 25,000gp a level 7 character should have 23,500gp total and this doesn't include the 8,800gp for the bow), and he's the problem?
Honestly with only a +8 to hit with his blitz he's not looking that good on his attack rolls. I'm assuming he took precise shot and improved precise shot as his ranger feats.
The wealth was accumulated in the Kingmaker AP the whole party has crazy crap tons of money. The bracers came up on a roll for medium wonderus item for the city. I know I could just nerf some of the treasure or fudge rolls but I really dislike doing that.
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If you are including 3.5 material, don't forget Coordinated Shot from (I think) the Miniatures Handbook. It lets you ignore cover from your allies, and, with the PHB2 rebuilding rules, was often used as a step along the route to Improved Precise Shot..There's also the problem of firing into melee. Even with precise shot, bad guys in melee with your party can get +4 to AC due to soft cover, so that can chew into an archer's ability to inflict damage.If your DM allows 3.5 material, in the Magic Item Compendium there are Goggles of Foe Finding that negate all but total cover for 2500gp.
Coordinated Shot is from Heroes of Battle.
The wealth was accumulated in the Kingmaker AP the whole party has crazy crap tons of money. The bracers came up on a roll for medium wonderus item for the city. I know I could just nerf some of the treasure or fudge rolls but I really dislike doing that.So wait -- he's spent four feats, been allowed more than what he should have for wealth by level (greater bracers of archery are 25,000gp a level 7 character should have 23,500gp total and this doesn't include the 8,800gp for the bow), and he's the problem?
Honestly with only a +8 to hit with his blitz he's not looking that good on his attack rolls. I'm assuming he took precise shot and improved precise shot as his ranger feats.
If you play kingmaker then i have two suggestions for you:
1st) ban crafting feats2nd) don't allow to withdraw money from the kingdom
There are threads on the withdrawing money issue. I did not allow it.
DR doens't work as well anymore against archers since they got clustered shots now
Your math appears to be a little bit off for your attack bonus due to this statement.
"magic +2 composite longbow(+4 str bonus his strength bonus is only +3)"
If you are using a composite long bow with a strength rating higher than your strength you take a penalty on accuracy and probably damage too.