Well after many years, my gaming group is making the move from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Since I will be DMing I was wondering if I could get advice of what to look out for concerning rule changes and class abilities. Maybe a few "war" stories of 1st time Pathfinder games.
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The power level of the base classes is much higher.
Opposed rolls are almost history.
Read up on...
Combat Maneuver
This is an action taken in combat that does not directly cause harm to your opponent, such as attempting to Trip him, Disarm him, or Grapple with him.
Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB)
Combat Maneuver Bonus represents how skilled a creature is at performing a combat maneuver. When attempting to perform a combat maneuver, this value is added to the character's d20 roll.
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Combat Maneuver Defense represents how hard it is to perform a combat maneuver against this creature. A creature's CMD is used as the difficulty class when performing a maneuver against that creature
Here are some very helpful links:
The power level of the base classes is much higher.
First claim is arguable at best, but I won't go to detail because of the inevitable flame war it would bring with it. SRD is good for stats and rules, the Wiki is for the setting (Golarion) and I hope they both help. I'm currently a bit too busy at work to be telling my tales, though I do have one of a campaign that started out with the first two books of the Kingmaker Adventure Path that I might tell of later.
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The Gamemasters section has tons of good stuff to make your job easier. Even has a monster builder to add templates or the Augment Summoning feat to creatures out of the bestiary's so you can print out the adjust changed creature.
The game is better then 3.5 in my opinion but the combination of the two together is excellent. So much content that you can literally make any character you can thik of. One thing to watch out for is the use of 3.5 prestige classes combined with base PF classes and some of the new feats... some PC become very optimized.
Changes
- Very few Prestige Classes
*** Pathfinder (PF) new Prestige class is called the Archetype.
- CMB's / CMD's as mentioned above
- combo's and change to 3.5 feats and how they work together.
*** EX: Power Attack is a huge change.
Archetypes are a quick and easy way to specialize characters of a given class, adding fun and flavorful new abilities to already established adventurers.
Using Archetypes
Each base class in the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game draws upon a central idea, a basic concept representing Classes from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter’s weapon training or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue’s +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn’t jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
A good first adventure is...
Crypt of the Everflame
I am eger to use the new maneuver system. I plan on having the monsters use them a lot in the first few combats. I also plan on using the fast XP chart just so we can see the characters grow and just not sit down with the book and make 5th level. Is using 3.5 feats a big issue?
The feats will most likely need some tweaking, but I doubt you'll have problems. My party wanted the 3.5e Cleave instead of the Pathfinder one, and there were no problems at all with that.
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I am eger to use the new maneuver system. I plan on having the monsters use them a lot in the first few combats. I also plan on using the fast XP chart just so we can see the characters grow and just not sit down with the book and make 5th level. Is using 3.5 feats a big issue?
It can be... if you have Min/Maxers in your group. I suggest staying with core PF for the first game... as you get into Adv Players and Ultimate mage and especially Ultimate Combat the use of 3.5 feats with the new class features from archetypes and PF feats make some devastating builds.
in regards to Icyshadow - PF basically broke the 3.5 cleave into two feats to get what you could do with one in 3.5.
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
Cleaving Finish (Combat)
When you strike down an opponent, you can continue your swing into another target.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
Oh, and yeah, people need to burn more feats in PF than in 3.5e, but I don't know if that's a problem for your group.
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My group was a huge 3.5 group... 7 - 9 of use who have been playing 3.5 for about 5 years when we switched. At first we allowed all content to be used together but as time went on the DM's slowly eliminated 3.5 content from the games. Now 3 years later I and one other are the only one allowing 3.5 content to be in our games.
The main complaint of the other 3 DM's was that the builds got to "broken" as combinations of 3.5 Prestige classes + base class archetypes + 3.5 feats in conjucntion with PF feats made awesome combinations.
I do admit a few of the games got out of hand but it just takes some adjustment and as a DM you have to do your homework and know your players... The combination of the 2 allows you to make any character you can truly think of.
other examples...
In this case it made an otherwise broken build semi playable...
remember the Uber Charger build from 3.5?
- severval versions existed in the 3.5 Smashers forum but is consisted basically of 4 feats: Leap attack / power Lunge / Power attack and Shocktrooper. - you were doing obscene dmg by 5th level and in the areas of 400 - 500 dmg by level 9 (or more if you took the PRC Frenzy Berserker).
This was actually reduced in power by using the PF Barbarian and the new Power attack. It was still very powerful but playable.
Critical builds on the other hand... PF has some nice critical hit feats. I played a Disciple of Dispater and had a crit range of 12-20 with a X'3 PF weapon and tons of PF crit feats... it was pretty ugly had to swap character out for A diff as more things are critable in PF then 3.5.
As it stands now, we are just going to do core. Now if that stands when it come time to put pen to paper we will see. I am curious to see how much the rage powers and all the other new class features affect the game.
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A guy on the board named Cheapy started a great thread...
Heres the link... I took out of it alot of stuff and made a list but have not updated it in a while.
What are some things about the Pathfinder rules that you think most people do not know?
This is a list compiled by the users of the paizo message board/ The contents are those items identified as rules that are often unknown or forgotten, whether these were rules new to Pathfinder, rules that had changed from D&D or SRD 3.5 to Pathfinder, or which have not changed, but are frequently unknown, missed or forgotten. This list avoids taking a position on subjects that are highly debated and irresolvable due to rules conflicts or ambiguity. On the other hand, items that come up frequently, but are easily answerable by a direct reading of the rules, are included, as are both positions if the distinction is easy to explain. It also does not attempt to comment on every possible change. In particular, for Spells and Feats, only those that are extremely common or have wide-ranging impact are included.
The list is ordered by the type of change and then in by the order of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook chapters. Items that fall in multiple areas often appear in both. This list is an ongoing project and is unlikely to ever be complete. If you see something missing, add it.
Change from SRD/D&D to Pathfinder (includes brand new to PF)
List
1. Elves sleep, but are still immune to magical sleep.
Classes
1. Class Hit Dice changes in many areas. In general, HD are tied to BAB progression.
2. Barbarians rage x rounds/day instead of x times/day
3. Bardic performances no longer based on Perform skill (other than Countersong and Distraction) and the bard can do other things while performing without interrupting a performance, such as cast spells. In SRD/3.5, a verbal performance would be interrupted by spellcasting.
4. Bardic Knowledge is changed. Bards get bonus to knowledge checks and can use untrained.
5. Clerics don’t get heavy armor proficiency, get proficiency with deities favored weapon, and need a feat to turn undead.
6. Fighters can retrain bonus feats.
7. Monk flurry of blows different.
8. Paladin double of smite against some creatures is on first attack only.
9. Caster level for ranger and paladins is class level –3 with a minimum of 1. In SRD, these classes had caster level of class level/2, minimum of 2.
10. Ranger favored enemy bonus applies to attack rolls as well as damage.
11. Cantrips and orisons are at-will
12. Uncanny Dodge changed: character with uncanny dodge is not flat-footed.
13. Wizard specialists can now take spells from their opposed schools, but such spells cost two slots to prepare. All wizards, whether specialist or not, gain abilities at levels based upon their specialty.
14. Wizards can opt to have a bonded object instead of a familiar. A bonded object provides various benefits for use and penalties if unavailable.
Skills
1. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
2. Stealth/Perception changed in multiple ways from multiple skill set in SRD.
3. Alchemical items no longer require CL1 for some items.
4. Blind creatures use Acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else prone. Cannot run or charge.
5. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
6. Acrobatics is now used for jumping. Acrobatics is a Dex skill, whereas Jump was a Strength based skill. The speed penalty for speed below 20-feet is reduced to –4 per 10 feet less than 30. The running start needed to require lower DC is reduced from 20 feet distance to 10 feet.
Feats
1. Many Shot and Rapid Shot can now be used together.
2. Dodge applies to all opponents, not just one specified opponent.
3. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm split into a feat tree (Improved and Greater)
4. Grapple works differently. Some highlights: grapplers no longer share space. Ranged attacks into a grapple no longer risk hitting the wrong target. Grappled creatures threaten surrounding squares and can attack into them (at –2 to hit). Effects on AC and sneak attack are debated (see below). Effectively, while changed, grapple is still problematic.
5. Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, and Combat Expertise all different.
6. Track is no longer a feat
7. Far Shot halves range penalty instead of increasing range.
8. Mounted Combat now uses immediate action rather than 1/round language.
9. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
10. Vital Strike feat is a standard action. It cannot be used as part of a full attack, charge, or spring attack.
11. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect. (Note, this appeared with clarifying non OGC text in the PHB that it applied to the full numeric portion. That text did not appear in SRD)
Equipment
1. Spiked chain no longer has reach.
2. Weapon enhancement bonus (the plus portion, not the cost equivalent) overcomes various DR at different DR than just magic. Specifics: +3 negates cold iron/silver, +4 negates adamantine, +5 negates alignment based DR. This ability is not granted for greater magic weapon.
3. Mithral weapons count as silver for overcoming DR/silver.
4. Mithral armor now requires proficiency in original type of armor, not just resulting armor.
5. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
6. Armor proficiency is not required to wear armor, merely to avoid some penalties to attack rolls and some checks. Some armor has no penalty even if non proficient. Some has no arcane check penalty as well. See masterwork and mithral for examples.
Additional Rules
(none)
Combat
1. Anything that improves attack rolls improves CMB, including weapon feats if using weapon for the special attack.
2. Sneak attack and critical damage applies to many additional creatures, including undead and constructs.
3. Characters can draw a weapon during a charge, but can only charge a single move distance and must have a BAB of +1. If charging a single move distance due to being restricted to a single action (surprise, slow, etc.), charging character must have Quickdraw to draw a weapon in the same round as a charge.
4. Stabilization and death changed.
5. Blind creatures use Acrobatics check to move faster than half speed else go prone; they cannot run or charge.
6. Initiative is rolled prior to the start of surprise round for all combatants. In SRD/D&D, surprised characters do not roll initiative until after the surprise round is over.
7. If damage is less due to strength penalties such that damage would be less than 1, the damage in PF is 1 point of non-lethal. In SRD/D&D, the damage is reduced to 1 point of lethal.
8. Sunder can be used as a tactic that is not self-defeating for loot-loving PCs. Minor repair magic, such as mending and make whole, are more useful as a result.
9. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
10. Per the PF FAQ ruling you gain the benefit of a defending weapon only in those turns when it is used. For a shield, this would require using it for a shield bash.
11. There is no size limit to an opponent you attempt to grapple. In SRD, you can initiate a grapple with a creature up to two size categories larger than you are.
12. Something about CMD. (Language Pending)
Magic
1. Concentration is no longer a skill. New mechanic makes it tougher for multi-classed characters.
2. Polymorph school spells have changed. See polymorph spells and specific spells, such as alter self.
3. Empower spell only applies to the rolled portion of the effect. (Note, this appeared with clarifying non OGC text in the PHB that it applied to the full numeric portion. That text did not appear in SRD)
Spells
1. Many save-or-die and save-or-suck spells have re-saves or more limited effects.
2. Cantrips and orisons are at-will
3. Gate spell changed from 2x level to 1x CL in terms of HD called/controlled.
4. Detect (alignment) spells work differently. They do not detect alignment auras at low hit dice, and can register based upon intentions rather than actual alignment or deeds.
5. Harm spell explicitly cannot reduce hit points below 1, whether the save is made or not.
6. Celestial and Fiendish templates, such as used with summon spells, do not advance Intelligence to 3. This reduces communication options related to language.
7. Summoned creatures cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that require expensive material components. Expensive material components are typically those that would need to be tracked with a cost of 1gp or more.
8. Protection from evil grants a re-save at +2 and does not automatically suppress ongoing effects.
Prestige Classes, Gamemastering, Environment, NPCs
(none)
Magic Items
1. Magic item creation vastly changed. Note that there are various disagreements about exactly how it works, particularly with reference to prerequisites; those discussions are outside the scope of this document.
2. Magic item creation no longer uses XP.
3. Market Value of Magic Items (Language Pending)
4. Indentification of magic items changed significantly (see detect magic, identify, Spellcraft, and Perception)
5. Scrolls take a standard action, but longer if the spell contained has a longer casting time. (This may have been added in D&D add-on material as well, such as Rules Compendium).
6. A character can make a magic item without being a spell caster through the Master Crafsman feat.
7. Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon struck.
Appendices and Monster Rules
1. Poison rules incorporated into affliction and changed significantly; poison tougher all around.
2. Natural attacks changed. Creature can have multiple primary attacks.
3. Regeneration is simpler. See universal monster rule for regeneration.
4. Templates changed in many ways.
5. Incorporeal creatures take 50% of damage of each effective attacks instead of only being affected for the full amount of effective attacks 50% of the time.
6. Ability damage results in a penalty for every full –2 damage. The result of such penalties are limited in scope depending on the ability. Contrast with ability drain.
7. Ability drain is required before losing benefits from skill points and ability prerequisites required to qualify for feats and prestige classes. Contrast with ability damage.
8. Animals do not gain armor proficiency via any form of trick training. The animal type description text regarding trained for war leaves the discussion as well. Armor proficiency for animals is obtained through feats.
9. Celestial and Fiendish templates, such as used with summon spells, do not advance Intelligence to 3. This reduces communication options related to language.
10. Grab can be used against a target the same size or smaller than the grabber. In SRD, the target must be strictly smaller than the target. (This is published in Bestiary 2, and incorporated by FAQ into Bestiary. See Bestiary FAQ.)
11. Monsters advanced through PC class levels gain bonus to stats. Adjust stats by +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, -2, distributed in an appropriate way. This substitutes for SRD granting elite array for the same purpose.
Always like this, but frequently misplayed or not known previously
Races
(none)
Classes
1. Inspire courage is free action to continue once having started.
2. Animal companions can be dismissed at will and replaced with 24 hours; note that new companion requires training other than bonus feats.
3. Animal companions gain feats as they gain hit dice.
4. Animals do not have to be proficient in armor to wear barding, but may have penalties depending on what barding they wear.
5. Sneak attack and other precision damage applies to every attack in a round, not just once per round.
6. Familiars and animal companions can be the target of spells that they can not normally be the target of, such as enlarge person.
Skills
1. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
2. Auto-success on a 20 and Auto Fail on a 1 are not universal to all rolls. They apply only when called out. Typical examples are attack rolls and saving throws. The following are not subject to auto-success/failure: Skill checks, caster level checks, concentration checks.
3. Take 10 on skill check can be used when not in immediate danger or distracted. Do not confuse with Take 20’s restriction from use if there is a negative consequence.
4. Take 20 cannot be used if there is a negative result for failure. Do not over-generalize to apply this to Take 10.
5. If failing on Use Magic Device with a natural 1, you cannot retry for 24 hours.
Feats
1. Ride-by Attack is still a mess.
2. Removed.
3. Metamagic applied to spontaneous casting (bards, sorcerers, etc.) and to class-based spontaneous casting (cleric’s spontaneous cure or druid’s spontaneous summon) take longer to cast. Such spells take a full round action (different than 1 round casting time) to cast if originally a standard action; spells with a casting time originally longer than a standard action take an additional full round action. A sorcerer’s empowered magic missile would take a full round action to cast, and would come into effect at the end of his turn; in contrast, a wizard’s enlarge person (with no metamagic), has a 1 round casting time and comes into effect at the start of the wizard’s next turn.
4. Quicken Spell applies to spells with a casting time of a standard action or a full round action. Some view this as also applying to a casting time of 1 round, such as enlarge person. Expect table variance.
Equipment
1. Reach weapons can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away, but cannot be used against adjacent foes. Various feats and class abilities can make it possible to do so.
2. Animals do not have to be proficient in armor to wear barding, but may have penalties depending on what barding they wear.
3. Carrying too much gear can slow you down and might incur additional AC max Dex limits.
Additional Rules
1. Darkvision is not spoiled by other light sources. (Different in comparison to some pre 3e versions of D&D)
2. Rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw can damage a randomly determined worn magic item.
3. Carrying too much gear can slow you down and might incur additional AC max Dex limits.
Combat
1. Ranged attacks suffer from cover from objects, enemies, or allies. Allies often overlooked. Applies to reach weapons, ranged touch attacks, and melee touch attacks that have reach as well. (Last portion of this is subject to review).
2. Readying an action is a standard action. One can move first, and then ready. The readied action itself can be a standard, move, free, or swift action. (Note: could not explicitly be swift in SRD 3.5; swift was not in the SRD.) Can include 5’ step as part of the readied action if no other movement in either the readied action or prior to the readied action during regular turn.
3. Characters who use the run action lose Dex bonus to AC, and thus are subject to sneak attack.
4. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
5. Characters and creatures can charge a single move distance as a standard action if limited to a single action, such as during a surprise round. This doesn’t mean you can opt to only charge as a standard action if you have a full round of actions available.
6. Coup de grace can be performed against a creature with total concealment, such as invisibility, by using two full round actions.
7. Rules for tying up a character are in Grapple section.
8. Withdraw action can be double move. AoO only prevented from first square left.
9. You cannot take AoOs when flat-footed (usually in surprise round or before you have acted in first round) unless you have Combat Reflexes or a similar ability.
10. Ranged touch attacks (rays) and touch attacks can be the object of weapon improvement feats such as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc., and also benefit from feats such as Weapon Finesse.
11. A character can take only one immediate or swift action per round. Note: Swift and Immediate actions not part of the SRD, but commonly in use. (When does it reset language; language needed)
12. Reach weapons can be used to attack opponents 10 feet away, but cannot be used against adjacent foes. Various feats and class abilities can make it possible to do so.
13. Initiative is a Dexterity check, which is influenced by rules that modify ability checks.
14. When using manufactured and natural weaponry, all natural weapon attacks become secondary.
15. Difficult terrain and poor visibility hamper movement. You cannot take a 5-foot step nor charge in hampered movement.
16. The delay and ready special actions may be taken in initiative. When initiative starts is generally at the determination of the GM/DM. The ability to delay or ready an action outside of initiative should not be assumed and is subject to the individual table or playing group culture.
Magic
1. Spells can crit if they have an attack roll.
2. Removed.
3. Mutliple magical effcts that increase size do not stack.
4. Wizards learning new spells require time and a Spellcraft check. If the Spellcraft check fails, it cannot be tried again until the wizard gains a rank in Spellcraft. The wizard may Take 10 on the Spellcraft check.
Spells
1. Lesser restoration is a three round casting time. Usually, this means it isn’t used during combat. Potion of lesser restoration is good for in combat, though.
2. Enlarge person has a 1 round casting time.
3. Dimensional anchor has no saving throw, just spell resistance.
4. Harm (moved to item 5 of things that have changed -> spells)
5. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
6. Grease can be used to disarm.
7. A number of spell effects (remove disease, remove curse, knock, etc.) require a caster level check to be successful instead of automatically; this is not universal to all similar spells
8. Summoned creatures attack enemies without additional communication. Communication is required for other tasks or more specific instructions. Different groups may handle specific instructions differently.
Prestige Classes, Gamemastering, Environment, NPCs
(none)
Magic Items
1. Weapons and armor must have +1 enhancement prior to gaining additional enchantments.
2. Summon spells have 1 round casting times, even from wands.
3. Using a wand with a casting time longer than a standard action takes that long to activate. A wand of summon monster I takes 1 round and a wand of lesser restoration takes 3 rounds. But, you have to know to look under the activation section at the start of the wand section to know this.
4. A character can use a wand with a spell on his class list, even if he can’t cast spells yet. For example, a 3rd level paladin can use a wand of cure light wounds.
5. Spells with range of personal cannot be made into potions.
Appendices and Monster Rules
1. Immunity to cold/fire gives vulnerability to opposite. (Developers have indicated future change for this)
2. Elementals are immune to flanking and critical hits.
3. Creatures can often overcome the DR that is needed to hit them (magic, epic, etc.)
4. Fear effects stack or escalate; characters can become more fearful.
5. When using manufactured and natural weaponry, all natural weapon attacks become secondary.
It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it confused
1. Reach weapons for small and medium creatures have a reach of 10 feet. Despite a diagram that says otherwise, they can still attack two squares on a diagonal.
2. Double weapons are two-handed weapons with special properties regarding two-handed fighting. If a double weapon is used in one hand, only one end can be used. The missing text that clarifies things is that using a two-handed weapon with one hand only happens if it is sized smaller than you or you have an additional rules resource to permit it.
It’s the same between SRD and PF, but PF makes it clear
1. Wizards with prestige classes only get 2 free spells when gaining a level of wizard, not when gaining a level of the prestige class.
2. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. (In 3.5, this was subject to variance.)
Pending Resolution or More Complex than Can Be Dealt With Here
1. Quickened Spell on spells with casting time of 1 round. (see discussion in rules section of forum, here. A line is included that there is table variance on this matter above.
2. What is the interaction between grapple, pin, AC, Dex Bonus to AC, sneak attack? Contradictory rules (particularly when inclusive of condition table footnotes) are contradictory or ambiguous. discussion thread.
3. Defending Weapons resolved by FAQ
4. The arcane topic of dragon skin armor.
5. The role of Wealth by Level and interaction with crafting, consumables, wizard spell book, etc.
The main complaint of the other 3 DM's was that the builds got to "broken" as combinations of 3.5 Prestige classes + base class archetypes + 3.5 feats in conjucntion with PF feats made awesome combinations.
I do admit a few of the games got out of hand but it just takes some adjustment and as a DM you have to do your homework and know your players... The combination of the 2 allows you to make any character you can truly think of.
Just because you play Pathfinder instead of 3.5e doesn't mean that munchkining suddenly disappears. On the contrary, the reduced power of some stuff (compared Improved Trip from 3.5e to the one in PF, seriously) has caused even more min-maxing, especially among Rogues and Fighters. Also, I think archetypes shouldn't have replaced Prestige Classes in the way they did. I liked Prestige Classes for their RP value more often than for the stat benefits, and archetypes just feel like a poor attempt at replacing Prestige Classes while also robbing my character of abilities that fit the character concept and the actual class.
Feel free to disagree with me about this, but PLEASE try to make sense if you do (present valid arguments instead of just yelling "NO U IS WRONG"), because usually I just get trolls loyal to Pathfinder flaming my way who can't make a good argument, EVER.
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The main complaint of the other 3 DM's was that the builds got to "broken" as combinations of 3.5 Prestige classes + base class archetypes + 3.5 feats in conjucntion with PF feats made awesome combinations.
I do admit a few of the games got out of hand but it just takes some adjustment and as a DM you have to do your homework and know your players... The combination of the 2 allows you to make any character you can truly think of.Just because you play Pathfinder instead of 3.5e doesn't mean that munchkining suddenly disappears. On the contrary, the reduced power of some stuff (compared Improved Trip from 3.5e to the one in PF, seriously) has caused even more min-maxing, especially among Rogues and Fighters. Also, I think archetypes shouldn't have replaced Prestige Classes in the way they did. I liked Prestige Classes for their RP value more often than for the stat benefits, and archetypes just feel like a poor attempt at replacing Prestige Classes while also robbing my character of abilities that fit the character concept and the actual class.
Feel free to disagree with me about this, but PLEASE try to make sense if you do (present valid arguments instead of just yelling "NO U IS WRONG"), because usually I just get trolls loyal to Pathfinder flaming my way who can't make a good argument, EVER.
Are you offering any advice, or just flamebaiting? :)
I'm giving my opinion.
There might be insights in it for this guy, because I feel that the other posts here might be overly biased in favor of Pathfinder. Just like how there would not be Christianity without the Jewish, those who play PF should never lost sight of the fact that the existence of the Core Rulebook wouldn't have come to be without 3.5e D&D. *Grabs the Flame Shield just in case someone takes that the wrong way*
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I guess I am not sure if any of you are refering to me. I am just giving my opinion. As I said above... I allow 3.5 content in my games. I just mentioned that 3 of my CO-DM's do not and their reason why... I think its a good mix of reaction from core 3.5ers. I don't get involved in which game is better as its all a matter of what you enjoy. I believe the combination of both systems is allows for awesome character builds which i enjoy but don't get to play much.
Nah, I was teasing Icyshadow. He loves when he has the chance to be the one and only true objective voice among hordes of zealous PF fanboys. Such as myself.
Do I really come off as THAT biased myself? That might just say that most people here really ARE in that horde you speak of :D
And yeah, I was not referring to specific individuals, but in my opinion either those players your CO-DMs saw really were munchkins or then those DMs just don't want non-casters to have nice things. I don't know the details so I cannot really say.
Curse my habit of editing posts.
Anyway, does the OP have any more questions?
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I was just trying to answer his question... since we had a large group of veteran 3.5ers switch I thought it was a good example of how others might react to the change. + plus some of the problems we ran into. Not trying to sidetrack the threat in a genre war... heaven forbid if we get the 4.0 guys going... lol
I usually just joke around with Gorbacz without letting it turn into a full-on edition war. We disagree on some things, but that's it. And yeah, I think the biggest things a group making the switch should consider are the changes to the Core Racials, class HD and of course, Feats. It was a bit of a hassle when we suddenly switched to PF from 3.5e mid-way through a campaign and I needed to change the racials for my Half-Elf Cleric.
Thanks guys. I have missed coming to the message boards. I plan on it now since I am going PF. WhipShire that list was AWESOME. I think I will include it in my hand out. I didn't know about the clerics losing hvy armor but, I noticed the turn undead feat.
I'd be careful about using 3.5 feats with Pathfinder until that latter is a more comfortable fit. Even more so with 3.5 spells (especially Spell Compendium spells) and with Prestige Classes.
Archetypes, which do not appear in the Core Rulebook, don't replace prestige classes per se. An archetype merely presents alternate class abilites along a template/theme. It is possible, for instance, to build a character according to an archetype and then take a prestige class (of which there are some in Pathfinder -just not as many).
I didn't exhaustively read WhipShire's list so I don't remember if he mentioned small but important things like favored class bonuses - the most basic of which are either the +1 skill rank per level or the +1 hit point per level for taking your character's favored class each time you level. Those extra skill points can be a big deal for a skill monkey and the extra hit points make a barbarian just that much tougher.
At character creation you're going to be seeing higher ability scores than in 3.5, whether you use dice rolls (does anyone anymore?) or point buy. This is because most of the races get a +2 to two different scores (balanced by a -2 to one), while the half-elf, half-orc, and human get a +2 to the score of their choice. That can be a big deal (I know Josh would've loved that back in the day).