Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.I am all for limiting fights to realism, as long as you do the same with wizards and everyone else.So, they can only pull rabbits out of their hats and stuff? Right on!
I think people give reality too little credit for the amount of fantastic that is actually possible in it.
Honestly they limit it much more than it limits them.
So a lvl 20 Sohei would end up with 17 shots a round.
7 flurry, 8 manyshot, 9 rapid shot, 10 haste, 11 ki point.
6 AoOs Snap shot.
That would be a hard rate of fire to sustain. You would run out of arrows pretty quickly.
Again, the big thing for me is trying to have a good experience as a group.You haven't said it straight, but I'm getting the kind of vibe here that you don't trust your players enough to let them have the freedom that I think the players are entitled to.I think it is a little weird that Grimcleaver is being condemned for having mature conversations about game balance with PCs in his group. Mike Mearls actually has a lot to say on the subject in the new State of D&D: Future article, where he maintains that we've entered what he calls the "second era of RPG decadence," where all the power has shifted from the GM to the player. When a GM loses control of the environment for the sake of allowing players to do whatever the heck they want, consequences to the enjoyment of others be damned, then there is something wrong. I can't think of a more healthy, mature remedy than addressing such problems directly with PCs at the table.
I've suffered my share of archer abuse. In a 2-year Greyhawk campaign back in the 3.5 days, I had a knife-throwing halfling rogue that picked some 3PP feats that not only allowed him to use Combat Reflexes at range, but also another feat that allowed all AoOs to be sneak attacks. Next level, the party's arcane archer took the first feat, too, and suddenly the two of them are laying waste to everything, with about a dozen or more AoOs between them. They dominated everything, and the other PCs at the table began to resent it.
I addressed the situation with the story's primary antagonists calling in shadar-kai mercenaries. With their concealment miss chance, it effectively shut down the AoO scheme, and suddenly the ranged-weapon players were crying foul at the crippling of the abilities that were theirs, by right as players, to choose for their characters.
Now, I'm not sure who is right or...
That's fine to do as a DM.
When a game reaches a point where DMs no longer find it enjoyable to run because players are far too powerful, that's the fault of the game designers. Not the DMs or players for providing imbalanced options and doing a poor job of rule design.
We currently have quite a few builds like this in Pathfinder. And the designers haven't done a thing to correct them because they apparently are a problem with the high level game and thus aren't widespread enough to have an effect on their sales yet. Thus Paizo ignores the problem rules and will continue to do so until someone takes the time to look them over and make a reasonable correction or enough people complain that it damages their sales or reputation.
I let players use the options for the most part. Not their fault if a game designer makes a poor design decision without thinking of the repercussions. Even now I find it amusing they made sure to limit the Zen Archer's attacks to slightly better than the Archer fighter, while forgetting to do the same with Sohei. It's little things like this that players find that slip past game designers that make game balance hard to come by. Its takes forever to fix.
It would be great if game design companies had a guy they could pay to monitor this stuff. But they don't. So I imagine Reynolds or whoever their current eratta guy is will get around to all this stuff when he can.
Screw shooting 13 arrows.
Go with Sohei. Their bow flurry works with Manyshot and Rapid Shot.
Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.
I'd maybe be okay with mythic depending on the myth. I'm just not comfortable with Paul Bunyan sized myths. Beowulf ripping the arms off giant troll monsters and fighting for several days underwater with a bog hag is a little more than I would prefer. Maybe I'd go for something along the lines of a good fantasy novel? A D&D novel maybe? So you know, there's magic and dragons and, y'know dragons--but insomuch as it's possible to iron out the ecologies, economies and power scale I wouldn'd mind that.
The problem is I don't want my D&D game to have to be Exalted. I get tired of over the top fantasy with all the yellow-haired super sayan-ness. I'd take a hero who could die from an arrow in the chest over an epic character who can track across water any day.
I play D&D that way and it works fine. I'm not whining here or anywhere really, guys. A dude had a question. A bunch of people jumped on him for his question being dumb. I figured I'd offer an alternative answer, y'know to help and stuff. Everything since has just been me talking with all the other folks on here to let them know where I stand.
That's it. How that baffles or infuriates everyone so much is, I think, people projecting stuff onto me that just ain't there.
Anyway this stopped being fun a while ago so take care guys.
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Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.I'd maybe be okay with mythic depending on the myth. I'm just not comfortable with Paul Bunyan sized myths. Beowulf ripping the arms off giant troll monsters and fighting for several days underwater with a bog hag is a little more than I would prefer.
A base pathfinder fighter can do just that. around 10th level you could strangle an ogre naked. The game past 6th level is no longer anywhere near "realistic" you have went into the realms of Myths by level 7. Boewulf is the default assumption of the rule set man.
And you don't want super sayan-ness you best band all full caster..every one. They are want is over the top and vastly cosmic, not a fighter who can pull down even 30 shots a round. When you have classes that can make demi-plans, fly and kill with a single word, the stuff a fighter can do is never gonna be as un realistic.
Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.I'd maybe be okay with mythic depending on the myth. I'm just not comfortable with Paul Bunyan sized myths. Beowulf ripping the arms off giant troll monsters and fighting for several days underwater with a bog hag is a little more than I would prefer. Maybe I'd go for something along the lines of a good fantasy novel? A D&D novel maybe? So you know, there's magic and dragons and, y'know dragons--but insomuch as it's possible to iron out the ecologies, economies and power scale I wouldn'd mind that.
The problem is I don't want my D&D game to have to be Exalted. I get tired of over the top fantasy with all the yellow-haired super sayan-ness. I'd take a hero who could die from an arrow in the chest over an epic character who can track across water any day.
I play D&D that way and it works fine. I'm not whining here or anywhere really, guys. A dude had a question. A bunch of people jumped on him for his question being dumb. I figured I'd offer an alternative answer, y'know to help and stuff. Everything since has just been me talking with all the other folks on here to let them know where I stand.
That's it. How that baffles or infuriates everyone so much is, I think, people projecting stuff onto me that just ain't there.
Anyway this stopped being fun a while ago so take care guys.
This is why I love E6. 2E had PCs that went to about 10th level in the PHB, but they weren't but about as strong as 6th or 7th level 3E. The 3E mechanics allow for a wider variety of games to be told just using the core rules. There's a reason most people end their games a bit after 10th level, and that's because the game changes to something different than what they want. Likewise, there's a reason some people begin their PCs at higher levels, because they like the game it becomes. Then there are people who, like myself, like the progression through all of these things.
If I want to run a game where everything is high fantasy but characters are limited to a real-ish world, E6 does it for me in spades.
Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.I'd maybe be okay with mythic depending on the myth. I'm just not comfortable with Paul Bunyan sized myths. Beowulf ripping the arms off giant troll monsters and fighting for several days underwater with a bog hag is a little more than I would prefer.
A base pathfinder fighter can do just that. around 10th level you could strangle an ogre naked. The game past 6th level is no longer anywhere near "realistic" you have went into the realms of Myths by level 7. Boewulf is the default assumption of the rule set man.
And you don't want super sayan-ness you best band all full caster..every one. They are want is over the top and vastly cosmic, not a fighter who can pull down even 30 shots a round. When you have classes that can make demi-plans, fly and kill with a single word, the stuff a fighter can do is never gonna be as un realistic.
Most people complaining that the fighter shoots too many arrows aren't complaining because they hate magic. They are complaining because there isn't a reason for it. The wizard has magic, so he can fly and kill with words. The fighter doesn't have magic, so it's aggravating that he does impossible things.
This is the writers fault. They could easily have made 17 arrows a round 2 good arrows a round, or they could write that all fighter learn magic and post x level are hasted. They didn't do either. They just said: fighters practice a lot so they shoot a lot of arrows. It is shoddy writing a bad game design. If they tried harder there wouldn't be threads like this.
Dude. Do you even know what game design IS? Because you sure don't sound like it. Game design has way more to do with fun and way less to do with "verisimilitude." The fact that fighters can do crazy awesome stuff is great. And if they wrote that all fighters learn magic beyond X level, then they're not even the same class flavor-wise.
It's not shoddy writing either. Because...what?! In what world does any of your complaint make sense?
Further, the number of people who are ok with 3 arrows in around a second? That's because that's a real world thing. Like, one that people can do. There are videos in this very thread illustrating that fact.
I guess you're not okay with Batman or Captain America either. Or Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Or Beowulf. I'm sure EACH one of those suffers from "shoddy writing," in your opinion.
Young Dragons are about as heavily armored and difficult to kill as Sherman Tanks, if those could fly and cast spells, but my tenth level fighter can win a stand-up fight with one. Does THAT bother you, too?
And if they "tried harder" to satisfy YOU, there absolutely would still be threads like this. You can't please everyone, and you shouldn't try.
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Dude. Do you even know what game design IS? Because you sure don't sound like it...
The post above, and others like it in this forum, mark the point where threads containing otherwise healthy debate sour like milk left on the counter overnight. It has all the markers; aggressive tone, excessive "whaaat?!?" punctuation denoting with audacity the invalidity of another poster's opinion, all-caps words stressing the pointedly argumentative, accusatory tone, and belittling language with rhetorical, mocking questions that attack another user's intelligence.
And it isn't even that bad compared to most examples of its kind, so forgive me for being hard on you, "Irulesmost". I think we've learned we have to write this way to ensure our loud voices are heard to compete with the same bile we've come to accept from other posters. Luckily the post doesn't call anyone names or anything, but it does imply that another poster lacks intelligence in a way that the writer can't possibly comprehend, all over a difference of opinion. But even so, from this point on, it will demand response from the posters it mocks and those whose opinions do not align with the writer, and lines begin appearing in the sand.
Be nice, people. This was a fun thread to read for a bit there, full of useful advise from multiple camps hoping to aid another gamer with a problem at the game table. The hostility and aggressiveness seemed a little misplaced earlier, but at this point it might as well take over, so I'm off for another. You can start the office pool on postcount before mod lockdown, or you can watch your tone, help where you can, and differ where you must. But be nice about it. =-)
PS: For the record, I still maintain changing the assumed round duration from 6 seconds to 10 or 20 seconds will clear up those perceptions of physical impossibility for the OP without adversely affecting a single other rule of the game, or imposing on any other PC or GM's game style or perception of realism.
When a game reaches a point where DMs no longer find it enjoyable to run because players are far too powerful, that's the fault of the game designers. Not the DMs or players for providing imbalanced options and doing a poor job of rule design.
Heheheheh
Believe me, you ain't seen nothing :)
For the record, I still maintain changing the assumed round duration from 6 seconds to 10 or 20 seconds will clear up those perceptions of physical impossibility for the OP without adversely affecting a single other rule of the game, or imposing on any other PC or GM's game style or perception of realism.
The amusing thing is that based on those YouTube videos and the Saracen book, a rate of 12 arrows in 6 seconds should be attainable by plain 'ol contemporary mortals, based on the "three arrows in 1 1/2 seconds" metric they used.
So, if a well-trained but pure strain human fellow can shoot 12 arrows per 6-second round, I have no issue with a 20th-level character shooting more than 12 arrows/round. After all, virtually nobody on Earth is even 5th-level.
That was awesome! Thanks for the link.
Again what I find amusing is the people that want "realistic" and don't even know what that is.
I repeat myself:
I think people give reality too little credit for the amount of fantastic that is actually possible in it.
Honestly they limit it much more than it limits them.
Reality is unrealistic.
Agh! Remember to warn people when you link to TvTropes!
Reality is unrealistic.Agh! Remember to warn people when you link to TvTropes!
Thankfully I made my Will save. THIS time. Unlike last time you farging bastage.
If you want a game that is capped at human potential, E6 is perfect. But the game does work at high levels. My game is running through their capstone level 20 adventure now. The rogue and fighter are powerhouses, and can hold their own amongst the casters in the party. At that point they should by doing epic deeds, like Achilles or Hercules.
The point of high-level characters is to leave the realm of reality and land in the world of Greek heroes. that's why the whole "extraordinary" ability distiction exists: it's the things that humans in real life could never do, but your character can.
By the time you're level 20 it'd be more correct to compare yourself to Achillies than to reality, and Achillies and other Illiad characters could throw boulders and defeat hundreds of troops in war without taking a scratch (something Pathfinder characters can't even do since even the worst soldier has a 5% chance of hitting you.)
So yeah, Pathfinder characters can fire too many arrows and do impossible stuff, but when you're comparing yourself to Conan, Hector and Odysseus, that's just a day at the beach.
... something Pathfinder characters can't even do since even the worst soldier has a 5% chance of hitting you.
This is kind of repeating a rather tedious thread elsewhere, but I suspect a single 20th-level character could easily defeat a small army of several hundred standard troops.
Heck, if I were running the game where that started happening, the most likely outcome would be for the troops to flee and/or surrender after the first hundred or so were slaughtered. I suspect that sane people, especially soldiers, don't really like fighting to the death for no reason.
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By levels 6+ no character is realistic. Fighters are crazy death blenders, rogues are silent winds of doom, clerics can routinely bring back the dead, wizards can fly and bend time and space like liquorice. This is a wonderful thing, embrace it.
The 10-20 second round is another good suggestion.
I like to sacrifice realism on the altar of fun.
Yep. You should not hold classes to a realistic mindset, but a mythic one.I'd maybe be okay with mythic depending on the myth. I'm just not comfortable with Paul Bunyan sized myths. Beowulf ripping the arms off giant troll monsters and fighting for several days underwater with a bog hag is a little more than I would prefer.
A base pathfinder fighter can do just that. around 10th level you could strangle an ogre naked. The game past 6th level is no longer anywhere near "realistic" you have went into the realms of Myths by level 7. Boewulf is the default assumption of the rule set man.
And you don't want super sayan-ness you best band all full caster..every one. They are want is over the top and vastly cosmic, not a fighter who can pull down even 30 shots a round. When you have classes that can make demi-plans, fly and kill with a single word, the stuff a fighter can do is never gonna be as un realistic.
Most people complaining that the fighter shoots too many arrows aren't complaining because they hate magic. They are complaining because there isn't a reason for it. The wizard has magic, so he can fly and kill with words. The fighter doesn't have magic, so it's aggravating that he does impossible things.
This is the writers fault. They could easily have made 17 arrows a round 2 good arrows a round, or they could write that all fighter learn magic and post x level are hasted. They didn't do either. They just said: fighters practice a lot so they shoot a lot of arrows. It is shoddy writing a bad game design. If they tried harder there wouldn't be threads like this.
.
Again I say RAMVORD
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So a lvl 20 Sohei would end up with 17 shots a round.
7 flurry, 8 manyshot, 9 rapid shot, 10 haste, 11 ki point.
6 AoOs Snap shot.That would be a hard rate of fire to sustain. You would run out of arrows pretty quickly.
Haste and using a ki point to get an extra attack doesn't work, from haste
When making a full attack action a hasted create may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects)
emphasis mine, using a ki to grant an extra attack and getting an extra attack from haste defiantly count as similar effects.
I was going to point out flurry doesn't work with rapid shot and manyshot, but it actually might as "A monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" and both manyshot and rapid shot start with "when making a full attack action with a bow/ranged weapon..." and haste requires one to make a full attack action as well, so it probably does work.
Although a zen archer is still probably better off due to all the archery stuff they get as part of the class
So a lvl 20 Sohei would end up with 17 shots a round.
7 flurry, 8 manyshot, 9 rapid shot, 10 haste, 11 ki point.
6 AoOs Snap shot.That would be a hard rate of fire to sustain. You would run out of arrows pretty quickly.
Haste and using a ki point to get an extra attack doesn't work, from haste
When making a full attack action a hasted create may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects)emphasis mine, using a ki to grant an extra attack and getting an extra attack from haste defiantly count as similar effects.
Ki and Haste are not similar effects.
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AFAIK speed weapons and haste are the only things that actually have that line, if it was only meant to be those two that didn't stack the line would read something like "This effect does not stack with haste/speed weapons" but it actually calls out "similar effects" using haste/speed weapons as an example
Skerek, I challenge you to find any other ability that doesn't reference haste in the first place (or doesn't have that text) that grants that extra attack. I tried hasted assault from the magus, and boots of speed. Both reference back to haste to prevent stacking.
The Ki extra attack is the only ability that doesnt give that disclaimer or reference haste directly
Actually there is a new clerical spell that has the same language. In fact all things that don't stack with haste specifically state as much.
The point of Ki is explicitly only usable with a flurry of blows, it is directly tied to flurry of blows -- you can't use it if you aren't making a flurry of blows. As such it is similar and like flurry of blows not haste.
Ah, watching those archery videos earlier in the thread make me wonder why people can't move and full-attack in the same round of combat.
Ah, watching those archery videos earlier in the thread make me wonder why people can't move and full-attack in the same round of combat.
Because that would benefit the martial classes and that may never happen.Seems you don´t know the basics of this system:)
Ah, watching those archery videos earlier in the thread make me wonder why people can't move and full-attack in the same round of combat.Because that would benefit the martial classes and that may never happen.Seems you don´t know the basics of this system:)
No, I know the system, I just don't agree with it, and that's how I perceive the way it should be.
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D&D is not a game for you, then.So, the game have an issue and is my fault to point it out?
The game does not have an issue. You are talking about a character that is virtually a GOD. Why do you not hold magical characters to the same level of "realism"? It's grossly unfair, and thinking in such a way will ONLY detract from your enjoyment of a good game, not help you improve it.
I've got a question...
If it's okay for an archer to shoot so many times in a round,
How come a sword fighter can only swing 4 times without the help of haste?
I for sure know that I can swing a stick more than 4 times in less than a minute.
It is one 4 swings. Its 4 times you got past the parry, dodge and the like to make an attack roll. Also its about damage more then how many times you roll.
I've got a question...
If it's okay for an archer to shoot so many times in a round,
How come a sword fighter can only swing 4 times without the help of haste?
I for sure know that I can swing a stick more than 4 times in less than a minute.
Technically, it's 4 proper connects in 6 seconds, which isn't that bad all things told. Though you start adding things like whirlwind, haste, two-weapon fighting, attacks of opportunity, etc. and it can transform into a boat-load of attacks.
6th level fighter, gets 3 regular attacks using rapid shot, another with many shot which is kinda cheating a bit, haste would push it past mundane.
I think it is really the attacks of oppurtunity that bother you, which could be as high as 6 with combat reflexes and dex 21 barring magic, even humans in this fantasy world might be beyond normal with a dex of 18 or 20 they are heroic standards not necesarily comparable with real world standards. I'd argue that a score of 16 or 17 will be the 'real human's' limit, snapshot itself is a feat that only a 6th lvl fighter/maybe ranger can realistically take at that level that is not quite normal humans, in my opinion that ceases at level 5 really, though it is subject to debate.
It is one 4 swings. Its 4 times you got past the parry, dodge and the like to make an attack roll. Also its about damage more then how many times you roll.
Well, what about unarmed creatures or inanimate objects, or the fact that AC, Dodge, and Dex prevent someone from hitting.
And the damage... Well an arrow does between a d8 or a d6 depending on which bow it's shot from. A dagger does a d4.
I love how swings are always abstracted to be multiple actions which include actions that are replicated elsewhere, but arrows shot are the dice rolled. (and not multiple shots per die, which would make the feats archers pull off very impressive indeed)
Yeah, weapons with ammo are weird in this system.
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When a game reaches a point where DMs no longer find it enjoyable to run because players are far too powerful, that's the fault of the game designers. Not the DMs or players for providing imbalanced options and doing a poor job of rule design.Heheheheh
Believe me, you ain't seen nothing :)
For the record, I still maintain changing the assumed round duration from 6 seconds to 10 or 20 seconds will clear up those perceptions of physical impossibility for the OP without adversely affecting a single other rule of the game, or imposing on any other PC or GM's game style or perception of realism.The amusing thing is that based on those YouTube videos and the Saracen book, a rate of 12 arrows in 6 seconds should be attainable by plain 'ol contemporary mortals, based on the "three arrows in 1 1/2 seconds" metric they used.
So, if a well-trained but pure strain human fellow can shoot 12 arrows per 6-second round, I have no issue with a 20th-level character shooting more than 12 arrows/round. After all, virtually nobody on Earth is even 5th-level.
This is another thing D&D doesn't capture. A shortbow can be fired faster than an English longbow. But in D&D everyone uses the equivalent of an English longbow for greater damage and range.
Mounted combat was with shortbows. Not the heavy pull English longbow. But because D&D doesn't take these types of things into account, everyone goes with the better damage weapon.
For example, using D&D rules you would have entire armies of heavily muscled guys wielding two-handed weapons because at low level the damage advantage is much greater than the AC advantage of a sword and shield wielder or a light-armored dextrous fighter.
But that isn't reality in any way. Two-handed weapon wielders would be destroyed on the field of battle as they were because wielding a two-handed weapon is so disadvtangeous as to be unheard of. A trained shield user with a one-handed weapon can kill a two-hander fighter with considerable ease. So could a light one-handed fighter. But you wouldn't know that the way D&D does combat. So why even try to apply realism to it. D&D isn't about realism. It's fantasy in every way.
So a lvl 20 Sohei would end up with 17 shots a round.
7 flurry, 8 manyshot, 9 rapid shot, 10 haste, 11 ki point.
6 AoOs Snap shot.That would be a hard rate of fire to sustain. You would run out of arrows pretty quickly.
Haste and using a ki point to get an extra attack doesn't work, from haste
When making a full attack action a hasted create may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.(This effect is not cumulative with similar effects)emphasis mine, using a ki to grant an extra attack and getting an extra attack from haste defiantly count as similar effects.
Hmm. Thanks for pointing that out. It could be argued that spending an extra ki point to obtain an extra attack is the monk speeding himself up for a round. I did not interpret it that way and only applied a similar effect to other spells or magic item enhancements based on spells. I think I'll go with this.
I was going to point out flurry doesn't work with rapid shot and manyshot, but it actually might as "A monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action" and both manyshot and rapid shot start with "when making a full attack action with a bow/ranged weapon..." and haste requires one to make a full attack action as well, so it probably does work.
Although a zen archer is still probably better off due to all the archery stuff they get as part of the class
With four levels of fighter, you can get Weapon Specialization and still +2 from weapon groups. The Zen Archer does allow a wisdom-focused character, which is advantageous for monks. But if you build around Snap Shot, dex-based is better for the AoOs. For sheer damage output the Sohei would be better.
The extra attack from the Ki pool is not a haste-like effect. That line references the extra attack from Speed weapons.
What exactly are they doing if not speeding themselves up?
Think about what a Ki Point allows you to do.
+4 Dodge bonus AC
+1 attack
+20 feet of movement
All of this involves a haste like speed boost. I think you could make a very well-supported argument that using a ki point is like a haste effect. It gives similar bonuses to haste. And you could envision it as using your ki to give yourself a small boost of supernatural speed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqqStGeYsj8&feature=related
Turkish archery... very accurate on thrown discs.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI&feature=related
This chick is going Legolas!!! Worth watching.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggDfJLB8jTk&feature=related
Three arrows in 2 secs
Just as I suspected. All three non-compound shortbows. Read up on the expedition of Richard the Lion-hearted versus mounted archer's from Saladin's army. Those bows couldn't even penetrate the Crusader's armor. They used their mobility advantage to launch large volley's against unprotected animals and hoped to hit the unarmored areas of European warriors because their bows were so weak they couldn't penetrate the armor.
The English longbow was made to counteract European armor. You could not fire one in the fashion you see in these videos. You could also not fire a compound strengthened-longbow like the archers in these videos.
I've done some archery with 70 to 80 lb. pull compound hunting bows. Still closer to shortbows by D&D standards, but the pull was immense. It took all your strength and concentration to maintain the pull and aim. You would not be able to fire like this with a heavy pull bow. So this provides proof of nothing.
I will only reiterate that D&D is not realistic. No version of it. Not E6. Not any of the editions. Applying realism is ridiculous. My preference is making the game as playable as possible. My version of balance is more concerned with making combats interesting and viable, not realistic or long.
I don't like it when the group goes against a dragon and crushes it in two rounds because the martials do far more damage than the creature can handle, the healer can heal the dragons damage in one round with minor resource expenditure, and the mage can mitigate the dragon's mobility and attack advantage with a minor expenditure of resources thus turning an entire combat against a dragon into a fairly routine and trivial affair. And that is what happens in high level play.
I'd rather not take the opposite extreme. Maybe they have some system for this to work in E6. But no 6th level character stands a chance against higher end monsters. So either they must not be fighting them at all or they must be so severely modifying such creatures as to make E6 an entirely different game from D&D.
A 20th level fighter with completely average constitution can throw himself off a 20 story building and expect to just get up and walk away from it. A 20th level fighter with typical stats can expect to climb up the side of that building in 40 seconds then throw himself off its peak again and still get up and walk away from it, and maybe do it two or three more times.
Heroic, fantastic, extraordinary and amazing are the name of the game. Well, that and Pathfinder. Same thing, really.
Has anyone fully explored the combat option of a fighter suplexing a wizard off of a building?
The extra attack from the Ki pool is not a haste-like effect. That line references the extra attack from Speed weapons.What exactly are they doing if not speeding themselves up?
Think about what a Ki Point allows you to do.
+4 Dodge bonus AC
+1 attack
+20 feet of movementAll of this involves a haste like speed boost. I think you could make a very well-supported argument that using a ki point is like a haste effect. It gives similar bonuses to haste. And you could envision it as using your ki to give yourself a small boost of supernatural speed.
Giving similar bonuses is not the same thing as giving similar effects.
For example barbarians get bonuses to strength speed and a specific archetype can get extra attacks.
Manyshot and rapid shot offer extra attacks too, ninjas get an extra attack from ki as well.
This doesn't mean that because they get similar bonuses they can't get other bonuses to the same stuff.