I'm not as worried about realism since there's plenty of things that are not realistic.
I just think there should be a 2nd option in ranged. As it is, composite bows are by far the strongest option with almost no way for crossbows to get close. It's a combination of factors that make crossbows not even up to par. Other melee weapons have various options that are useful. Crossbows don't really have that option.
I beleive guns are a serious competetor to bows. But:
1) you pretty much need to be a gunslinger (I think this may be debated)
2) lots of cash (no problem at higher levels)
3) clairification on double pistols (do you really get two shots or not)
4) You have to not hate the gun rules (many do).
Perhaps it is then Bows > guns >> crossbows
Anyway, I don't see it as a big thing. It is something you either live with or make house rules for. PF has much larger problems than crossbows vs. bows.
I beleive guns are a serious competetor to bows. But:
1) you pretty much need to be a gunslinger (I think this may be debated)
I really don't think this needs to be debated getting the Dex added to damage is pretty much the factor that makes or breaks this, otherwise even with attacking touch a longbow user is going to crush the firearm user in terms of damage.
I just wanted to chime in and say I like Laurfindel's idea. Giving crossbows a bonus to damage akin to a composite cost makes tons of sense, and I think would solve this issue nicely. You wouldn't even need to give the crossbow feats like bows. Given enough power, you wouldn't even need to give it anything beyond rapid reload.
For example, if it was +100 gp * damage bonus * damage bonus, you'd end up with something like this.
Cost / Dmg Bonus
+100 gp / +1 dmg
+400 gp / +2 dmg
+900 gp / +3 dmg
+1,600 gp / +4 dmg
+2,500 gp / +5 dmg
+3,600 gp / +6 dmg
+4,900 gp / +7 dmg
+6,400 gp / +8 dmg
+8,100 gp / +9 dmg
+10,000 gp / +10 dmg
Etc, etc.
It would be significantly more expensive than a composite bow, but that's because of the amount of engineering that it would take, and more specifically, because composite requires a good strength score, while this lets you focus entirely on Dexterity; so you should have to pay out the butt for that convenience.
I might toy with this in my own games for a while. My group is generally open to trying new things for a bit. Though I'm not sure they want my kobolds any stronger than they usually are. *chuckles*
I just wanted to chime in and say I like Laurfindel's idea. Giving crossbows a bonus to damage akin to a composite cost makes tons of sense, and I think would solve this issue nicely. You wouldn't even need to give the crossbow feats like bows. Given enough power, you wouldn't even need to give it anything beyond rapid reload.
For example, if it was +100 gp * damage bonus * damage bonus, you'd end up with something like this.
It would be significantly more expensive than a composite bow, but that's because of the amount of engineering that it would take, and more specifically, because composite requires a good strength score, while this lets you focus entirely on Dexterity; so you should have to pay out the butt for that convenience.
I might toy with this in my own games for a while. My group is generally open to trying new things for a bit. Though I'm not sure they want my kobolds any stronger than they usually are. *chuckles*
If you do decide to run it see if you can compare it to a gunslinger at ~the same points and to bows because I do kind of feel like giving away the only great gunslinger class feature for on average less than the cost of their guns might be pretty damaging for the comparison switching it from Bows>Guns(w/slinger)>>Crossbows to Bows>Crossbows>Guns when we should be aiming for Bows~Crossbows~Guns
The other issue is that realistically guns are already just reskinned crossbows with misfires and the touch AC in the first range increment and even the ideal slinger is just barely keeping up with the archer on super high AC w/ touch of 10ish and running double pistol pistolero builds as far as I've seen on the DPR calculations on other posts.
Probably not, since everyone in my group, including myself, hates the Ultimate Combat guns, and we don't even like the class. I really summed up most of my feelings on the gunslinger class and the god-awful firearm mechanics in other threads and in my review of the alpha and beta previews. You're entirely right that guns are just glorified crossbows, and the mechanics they have don't fit anything in the system at all. But I digress. Maybe after I tinker with these crossbow modifications, I'll personally compare to the gunslingers since you've asked me to; but I can't promise anything as I already find the PF Gunslinger as little more than a colossal failure and a testament against the quality of the Paizo worksmanship and evidence of mechanical decline with the splatbooks.
EDIT: While there are the plenty of decent firearms rules and such out and about you can find online, this is the gunslinger that my group uses, and recently I had someone say this about it.
"It's everything it should be- much more satisfying than the official version."
It's a free download, so if you like it, go for it. I might put it on the Paizo store as a free download once I take the time to update it slightly. In the meantime, feel free to enjoy it, or trash it, at your leisure. If you do like it, the expected errata includes the following.
1) Guns will likely have their critical multiplier reduced to x2 because Fighters using guns are perhaps just a little too sexy.
2) Deadeye Shot will only work with scatterguns and short scatterguns at 6th level and beyond.
I already find the PF Gunslinger as little more than a colossal failure and a testament against the quality of the Paizo worksmanship and evidence of mechanical decline with the splatbooks.
That seems a bit harsh . . .
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That seems a bit harsh . . .
I already find the PF Gunslinger as little more than a colossal failure and a testament against the quality of the Paizo worksmanship and evidence of mechanical decline with the splatbooks.
Perhaps it is, but I didn't want to rehash the distaste I have for the PF Gunslinger and its associated Firearm mechanics, when I have reviewed it several times on these boards before. The above is the shortest way I could describe my feelings about them.
It is merely one of the testaments to the decline of quality with the splat books however. Perhaps it is a lack of refinement. With the core, they worked on it for a long time, and likely had a slightly easier job with mostly editing and modifying the core; which is generally easier to do than writing from scratch if you're not making vary invasive changes (which they didn't). However, it is no secret that the quality of the splatbooks has been sinking like an iron golem in a swimming pool since the Advanced Player's Guide.
Ultimate Combat is a stellar letdown, with more support for spellcasters than for the core martial classes, along with three new classes which are either poorly designed or lackluster. The core barbarian makes a better samurai, and isn't just a cavalier archtype disguised as a class. The ninja has some mechanics which just seems weird, and seems more like a cop-out of actually fixing some of the issues with the rogue class, which they could have done with Ultimate Combat.
But, I digress, and I would rather not get into a rant about it. It may have been harsh, but it was honest, and I would expect nothing less for my work as well.
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Are you defining "martials" as "anyone who doesn't cast spells"? Because unless you have a different Ultimate Combat than I, I don't see how someone could make a statement like that with a straight face.
That would be a good start. Though I usually consider Paladins and Rangers in the mix as well. However, Ultimate Combat is loaded with spells that allow magic users to jump on the martial bandwagon with little effort, and in some cases allow them to steal the class features of other classes with a word and a puff of smoke. Want some examples? Let's dance!
Effortless Armor is a low-level minute/level spell that robs the Fighter of his Armor Training feature, literally giving the first and second benefit of armor training immediately, and even scales to reduce check penalty. It's a 2nd level for almost everybody: cleric 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, paladin 2, ranger 2. It level and duration means buying a magic item with it on it is easy at about mid-levels. Buy your way into Fighter.
Certain Grip makes it impossible for you to be disarmed (a feature of the Fighter's capstone), as well as giving a +20% bonus to two skills and CMD vs a variety of martial combat maneuvers. Also a 2nd level spell, possessed by 3 classes, and lasts a full 10 min / level, making it even cheaper, and in the category of long-duration buffs. It's even handy for spellcasters who don't plan to be martial, since it prevents you from disarming them of their wands, staffs, or spell components.
Frost Fall has nothing at all to do with martial characters, being possessed only by 3 full casters, and just adds to the list of CC spells that they can bring to bear. Staggering foes is essentially like slowing them for a round, so you deal 2d6 damage, fortitude save vs staggering, and it continues to deal damage in an area after. Not super powerful, but it's a new way to hose rogues as it denies them full attacks and it's very difficult to become immune to stagger. But I mention this not because of its power, but because it really has no business being in this book.
Chain of Perdition is a 3rd level spell that creates a minion of force with a 10ft reach that is immune to physical attacks of all kinds and cannot be destroyed without hitting it with spells. What does it do? Well it trips, disarms, dirty tricks (blind or entangle), or drags enemies with what amounts to a perfect BAB + Key Ability Mod in place of Strength, which they can move about as a move action, allowing them to continue casting spells while it's active. So now we have a low-level version of the Preform Combat Maneuver (the only thing martials have as far as CC goes) from Telekinesis, but it doesn't even require the wizard to devote his attention to it.
Wizard - "Hahaha, sorry, did you have a nice trip? Yeah, now I'm a trip build with a single spell. 10ft reach with a perfect BAB and my Int as Strength, and I don't even have to waste actions. Now die."
Litany of Escape basically lets you, as a swift action, free someone from a grapple without a check. As if freedom of movement wasn't enough, it even goes the extra mile and teleports them out of melee. Also frees them from being tied up. At least it's only for Paladins, Antipaladins, and Inquisitors.
Wilderness soldiers grants a damaging and CC effect, turning every tree, grass, undergrowth, whatever, into warriors in your service. 2nd level Druid spell, and 2nd level Ranger spell. However, since their BAB is similar but the druid's key ability tends to be much better, it's pretty lame for Rangers, but awesome for Druids.
I could go on, but company has showed up. So I'll leave it at this.
I deleted my post because I knew it'd derail the thread, sorry!
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#1 Hand Crossbows have no reason why they should be exotic except that it was a hold-over from it being a Drow hand crossbow.
#2 Historically, crossbows had various crank mechanisms,from a simple foot pull, which allowed the person to use their entire strength to draw the string to full crank mechanisms, which even the weakest person could eventually draw.
#3 I drop the dmg to 1d3 (small), 1d4 (medium) on a crossbow, then have the crossbow have a strength rating, say 100gp per bonus increase like a strength bow. However to draw it back would require the following
character str - crossbow str
STR = hand draw like a bow
STR - 2 = foot draw, like current crossbow
STR - 4 = Hand Crank, move action to reload
STR - 6 = Windlass Crank, Full action to relaod
So a STR 8 could use a STR 14 cross bow with a windlass, while a STR 14 character could use a STR 14 crossbow like a bow; but he could use a STR 20 crossbow with a windlass. it would do d4+5 damage.