I'm sure the people new to PF will be grateful to be told they should use their inexperience to figure out how to balance it. It shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 messed up games to figure it out. *sigh*And how many campaigns have the crafting feats messed up? Show of hands?
I actually used them to wreck a campaign in 3.5. It wasn't intentional, but the end result was that the campaign quickly fell apart because I was abusing the whole saving money aspect. To be fair though, it was a character created at a higher level and not one that grew from low level.
I've been in a pbp campaign horribly screwed up because of crafting(in 3.5e but the DM didn't use xp costs to crafts so the crafting rules were the same as the current PF rules) the wizard took craft wondrous and nearly doubled wealth in the mid levels, when they already were powerful to begin with. In pbp it's hard to say exactly what the cause of a game falling apart is, especially mid-high level games, but having one character playing a 3.5e wizard decked out in all the wondrous item he needs pulled from all sorts of obscure sources for half price did not in any way add to the fun of the other mundane, normally equipped characters.
Well as confused as I am by the posts so far, I still have to thank you SKR for the FAQ. It does clear up some of the worst GM abuse that several people here were advocating (namely limiting treasure given to crafters). I guess it isn't so bad having to come to some pregame agreement with players on crafting percentages for new characters. And I thought back over my entire time playing from 3e to PF and I can honestly say you are right... no game has ever been ruined over crafting. The biggest killer of games is simply loss of interest on the part of the GM. And in this ADD world that happens with alarming frequency.
Bob et al, are the cases where your crafting unbalanced the game, did the GM have a permissive attitude and let you have what you want when you want or did you actually manipulate events such that the GM almost had no other reasonable option than to let you have what you want?
And how many campaigns have the crafting feats messed up? Show of hands?
Just crafting? OK, probably not many. PC-to-PC imbalance, specifically higher level casters outshining other party members? Yeah, I would say that a few campaigns have been affected by that.
The fighter crafting himself a fancy sword or armor isn't really going to upset the game, especially considering the feat and skills the fighter invests. There are specific numbers in the "balanced approach" that set clear limits. There are also specific limits on the bonus you are allowed craft vs your own level.
The wizard starts with SS, and can get CWI as a bonus feat at level 5. He is going to bump up his already high prime attribute (how many feats/items is that worth?), get some funky movement or defensive items, and has the option of crafting from a list of dozens of different useful items. All at the cost of a limited use bonus feat. There are few limits on what you can craft, and many extra things you can do since your Spellcraft is through the roof.
Don't get me wrong, controlling Munchkinism shouldn't be that high on the list of reasons for deciding the rules Pathfinder is based on. But this FAQ essentially greatly benefits wizards while offering martial characters little benefit. The take away folks who read the FAQ is going to get is you can double your wealth, and folks who slog through the later part of this thread will come away with 150% of WBL and hopefully a note about it being up to the GM.
To be fair, most of these issues are inherent to other parts of the system. CWI is disproportional to other crafting feats. It is easier for casters to gain power by spending gold. Master Craftsman and Weapons and Armor crafting are limited and strictly controlled including limits in the "Balanced Approach". Martial characters limited skill pts. etc. etc.
I understand the reasons for counting crafting at cost during a campaign, but once you limit the benefit strictly for the crafter (items given to other party members are counted at market price against their WBL) you eliminate the teamwork aspect, and enforce imbalance.
As a disclaimer, when I GM I will usually allow a crafter to make an extra item or two, especially if they go to or benefit the entire party. I guess I would have preferred it if it was explicitly left up to the GM, with the expectation that the character should get a little benefit from the feat, but remain close in power level to the rest of the party. I know you can look at the FAQ and point to where it says it is up to the GM, I just don't think that is the message most people will take from the whole thing.
PS Got a nice little snow storm here in NY, and was sliding around on my bike. I would say you should try it out there in Paizoland, but then I watched the videos of the way people drive in the snow...
HIDE INDOORS!
Unfortunately, I haven't seen a whole lot of clarification as to how they were intended to interact, which is a shame.
If your just joining the thread, you should check this out:
Link to FAQThere has been a little further clarification that is is intended to allow about a 150% increase, but still subject to the Balanced Approach, as per page 400 of the rulebook.
Also, it is up to the GM to set limits for his own campaign.
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My games weren't 'broken' by Crafting, but that was more because my players were pretty good and didn't think to try. Besides, in those days everyone was way beyond WBL pretty quickly as happens in your early monty haul days. Balance consisted of me bringing out more and more powerful monsters until the party stopped winning so easily.
As a beginner GM my default answer to anything the players asked was "Yes". Over the years, with experience, my default answer is now "No".
I think that WBL provides an important guideline for beginner GMs who tend, as I did, to dish out treasure willy nilly until they realise the PCs are hitting way above their level. WBL instils in the beginner GM the idea that the game is more fun if all the PCs are balanced.
I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.
I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.
Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.
Bob et al, are the cases where your crafting unbalanced the game, did the GM have a permissive attitude and let you have what you want when you want or did you actually manipulate events such that the GM almost had no other reasonable option than to let you have what you want?
We could have what we wanted. Part of the problem was that we were also allowed to use the guidelines to create unique items. We obviously ran the items by him but sometimes what seems like a good price isn't. This was 3.5 though, and not Pathfinder. My character also came into the campaign late so he came with crafting as part of his background.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Further translation: It's been like this since 3.0 and it hasn't destroyed any campaigns, and there isn't any room in the Core Rulebook to add yet another paragraph reiterating, "hey, GM, remember that you're in charge of your campaign and should set limits you feel are appropriate."I'm sure the people new to PF will be grateful to be told they should use their inexperience to figure out how to balance it. It shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 messed up games to figure it out. *sigh*
People new to the game are going to have bucket loads of problems if they try to start playing by creating characters high enough level where this will be a big issue. Further, the classes who can most abuse it are the toughest ones to play which means problems due to crafting are going to be washed away by other issues.
If you want a beginner friendly FAQ entry start with "Beginning groups should start at 1st level".
Yeah high level play is best left for when you have a bit more experience... well unless you jump in knowing failure is a learning opportunity.
I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.
Here's how I do it:
1) I provide a bunch of treasure that the party needs to figure out how to use. I don't put in items specifically for any party member. While it may happen that they like something there, I didn't place it for anyone in particular. This keeps everyone on an even keel with wealth distribution. My players tend to divvy up stuff based on need and then sell off the rest. They also have party treasure as well as individual, but that is how they do it. I didn't suggest it.
2) Crafting items before the character is introduced, they can craft unique items. They can use the guidelines to make items that are not found in the books. If they want a cloak or resistance that is also a cloak of minor displacement, that's cool with me. We'll sit down and determine the price. If they want a set of glasses that allows them to see their spell books back in their home so they don't need to travel with the books, we will sit down and work out the cost. If someone doesn't have a craft feat, they have to just buy what's off the shelf (whatever is in the books).
3) I allow a little variation from the WBL based on the items and the XP the characters are at as well as my own experience as GM in determining where they should be. X gold pieces can be spent a lot of different ways and some items are more useful than others.
I think I have a pretty good grasp on what my games can handle. Cutting my teeth on 1st edition and working through 2nd, not having any guidelines on how much someone should have, I've developed a sense of what is balancing. I'm incredibly grateful for the WBL though so I don't have to eyeball it all the time.
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I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.
Once the game has started, crafting feats should start breaking WBL. That's what they're there for. The party can wait a week while the crafter crafts, or the adventure pushes them along and they have to make do. The crafter farms out their skills to the party, borrows money from them to craft certain items, and generally the whole party benefits. Or the crafter keeps it to themselves and has to find time and capital away from adventuring. Like any other feat, its usefulness is determined by the game environment.
I am certainly not advocating for any restrictions on crafting after a character enters play.Before play, I think all new characters should have equal WBL. Especially if they're all equal point buy characters. Before play, the Cleric was given the holy relic of the Church, the Fighter defeated the Monster for its loot, the Rogue "won it in a game of dice" and the Wizard lovingly crafted the item.
They should all have the same WBL. Why should the crafter get more?
Is there any other feat that kicks in *before* a character enters play?
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I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.Once the game has started, crafting feats should start breaking WBL. That's what they're there for. The party can wait a week while the crafter crafts, or the adventure pushes them along and they have to make do. The crafter farms out their skills to the party, borrows money from them to craft certain items, and generally the whole party benefits. Or the crafter keeps it to themselves and has to find time and capital away from adventuring. Like any other feat, its usefulness is determined by the game environment.
I am certainly not advocating for any restrictions on crafting after a character enters play.Before play, I think all new characters should have equal WBL. Especially if they're all equal point buy characters. Before play, the Cleric was given the holy relic of the Church, the Fighter defeated the Monster for its loot, the Rogue "won it in a game of dice" and the Wizard lovingly crafted the item.
They should all have the same WBL. Why should the crafter get more?
Is there any other feat that kicks in *before* a character enters play?
They go into their first adventure.
The Fighter has a whole bunch of useful feats for combat. The rogue has ultra-specialized in his combat skills, and the Cleric's save DCs are quite high because he picked combat related feats. The wizard meanwhile lags in power because he wasn't given any leeway for his crafting feats.
Believe me when I say nothing breaks if you let PCs use crafting feats before hand. I've done it, no problem. Any system can be abused with abusive players. Just use clear and open communication about your expectations.
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The Fighter has a whole bunch of useful feats for combat. The rogue has ultra-specialized in his combat skills, and the Cleric's save DCs are quite high because he picked combat related feats. The wizard meanwhile lags in power because he wasn't given any leeway for his crafting feats.
After the fight, they split the treasure 4 ways, and the Wizard crafts and adds 2x to his WBL.
As I said- no problem once the game starts.But if we allow crafting before play...
How about WBL starting characters at 5th level- 10,500gp?
We let the Wizard with Craft Wand have cost price wands and they start with Wand of Fireballs (5,625 gp), Wand of Invisibility (2,250gp) and Wand of Spider Climb (2,250gp) = 10,125gp. So they can still craft some scrolls too.
Now the crafter has over 20,000gp equivalent of stuff to every other characters 10,500gp equivalent. For a feat they shall continue to benefit from in game.
And the game hasn't even started yet.
This is not a good way to start a new game or introduce a new character and it won't be much fun for the rest of the party.
Once the game starts, I have no problem with the crafter/wizard crafting for awesome combos. They need the time, they need the resources, they have a party to think about. Their party may even help them towards this goal. It's all part of the game. Everyone's game. The game has started.
But pre game... where's the fighter's reward for Power Attack or the Cleric's reward for Extra Channel? Where's the rogue's extra cash for Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand?
While all characters have used their feats in their back story to collect treasure and items, none of these feats have affected the WBL of the new character.
The craft feats should not be any different.
This is the other half to the arguement that I responded to Bob_Loblaw;
If everyone starts at the same WBL, then the craft feat that affects wealth, and was taken at level x, has had no value to the character for that many levels since he has the same WBL as the non-crafters.
If the item value is the market value for everyone, and items can be commissioned by a character without the feat. This is what makes the feat lose value on creation beyond 1st. If it exists it is available, crafting rules exist because anyone can make or get anything. You just need to find someone...
Finding someone to commission something in my games isn't the easiest task. I think that's why in games like mine, it doesn't diminish the usefulness of the Item Creation rules. In other games, where it's much easier, I'm sure it will have a different impact.
I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.
Sean, it seems like you are asking about crafting during a campaign, in regards to a statement about crafting before a campaign.
I see a few problems with giving benefits based on feats before a campaign. Yes, there are good arguments that a crafter could have more items then a non crafter. However, those arguments are equally valid when turned around and applied to XP rather then GP. For example, while the wizard was locked up in his tower playing with his craft rod feat, bumping up his GP value, the fighter is out there killing stuff with his weapon focus, bumping up his XP. If the wizard gets a GP boost, where is the fighters XP boost?
At the risk of repeating myself, once a campaign starts, almost everything is done as a party. A wizard can craft for other party members, for group benefit, or strictly for there own benefit. The way the guidelines and FAQ are written, the crafting feats make imbalance virtually mandatory, before the game even starts, and maintains its by giving crafters a very generous GP boost that is forbidden from being shared with the group that got the treasure in the first place.
Sean said 1.5x the values on page 400. That's a 50% increase not 150%.
My bad. I intended to say %150 of the WBL guidelines, which as you stated is a 50% increase.
Unfortunately, that 25% doesn't apply to arcane casters thanks to this line:And increasing 25% by 50% is only a 12.5% increase in wealth. Most people on here have said they'd be willing to allow, and have seen in their own campaigns, that wealth varies by about this already.
Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
And since we can count some items or wand as weapons, or armor, or whatever, the 50% increase ends up being across the board. Thanks to the line above, the "balanced approach" limits everyone BUT arcane casters.
If you think higher level arcane casters are underpowered, and need 50% more items to keep up, this FAQ is great. I think they don't need a boost and the rules should encourage teamwork and balance, not force inequality from the start.
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In your example, your 5th level wizard could never have that much.
My apologies for the imperfect example. My intention was to demonstrate, however, that one character getting up to twice as much stuff as another before the game starts, can over-power them considerably compared to other PCs, is easier to abuse and isn't fun or fair for the other PCs who have to wait for an in game opportunity to use their feats.
It's a trade off between straight feat utility vs item utility. You are still going to be restricted in making things by the rules of crafting, the time your campaigns take, and the gold a player can invest into this.
Entirely true once the game starts. Pre game changes this equation considerably.
Let's open another can of worms here-
Introduced characters already have a WBL advantage over grown/played/evolved characters because the introduced character can customise and tailor their WBL equipment to their character.
Whereas the played character makes do with and adapts found treasure, or gets only half price for it to buy a tailored item.
Pre-game crafting for introduced characters further compounds this advantage.
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Nice try, but I was referring to my "Let him spend 21 days crafting" comment in this thread, not to that FAQ entry, which I and Jason stand behind.Then I'm glad you're finally agreeing that the FAQ entry as written was a mistake.
Sorry, I was a little distracted when I wrote that.
I can't count the number of roleplaying friends and associates who were absolutely thrilled to see the new FAQ entry! All the groups I've ever played in, BAR NONE, have handled wealth and crafting this way for over a decade now.
Keep up the good work, Mr. Reynolds, and don't let the naysayers get you down.
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In your example, your 5th level wizard could never have that much.My apologies for the imperfect example. My intention was to demonstrate, however, that one character getting up to twice as much stuff as another before the game starts, can over-power them considerably compared to other PCs, is easier to abuse and isn't fun or fair for the other PCs who have to wait for an in game opportunity to use their feats.
It's a trade off between straight feat utility vs item utility. You are still going to be restricted in making things by the rules of crafting, the time your campaigns take, and the gold a player can invest into this.Entirely true once the game starts. Pre game changes this equation considerably.
Let's open another can of worms here-
Introduced characters already have a WBL advantage over grown/played/evolved characters because the introduced character can customise and tailor their WBL equipment to their character.
Whereas the played character makes do with and adapts found treasure, or gets only half price for it to buy a tailored item.
Pre-game crafting for introduced characters further compounds this advantage.
My point is a GM should obviously communicate with a player who has obviously been abusing the rules to gain unfair advantage:
"That's a lot of wands buddy, and a huge chunk of your WBL, now if you look at these guidelines here you should only have spent X% of your WBL on wands and non-weapon/armour items. So let's scale that back until you're closer to the percentages suggested on this table."
Basically the WBL rules are guidelines just because the crafter gains an advantage doesn't mean he has to abuse that advantage. It's trying to "win" Pathfinder, which is silly.
My point is a GM should obviously communicate with a player who has obviously been abusing the rules to gain unfair advantage:
"That's a lot of wands buddy, and a huge chunk of your WBL, now if you look at these guidelines here you should only have spent X% of your WBL on wands and non-weapon/armour items. So let's scale that back until you're closer to the percentages suggested on this table."
Basically the WBL rules are guidelines just because the crafter gains an advantage doesn't mean he has to abuse that advantage. It's trying to "win" Pathfinder, which is silly.
Are you saying a crafter shouldn't have more gear than a non-crafter?
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And I also stated that your example wasn't overpowered in the same paragraph of which you chose to quote one line.
Sorry, I thought I covered that with the confession my example was imperfect. Is your implication that there are no/few overpowered examples?
I find replying to only the relevant line saves space and makes it easier to read.
EDIT: It also says nothing about letting a player get away with +100% WBL.
Again, I agree, but the degree of abuse is only one factor of my reasoning. I think in game benefits are more than sufficient for these feats, and see no reason why they should have any pre-game benefits at all.
I think my best analogy yet has been the rogue.Should a Rogue with Skill Focus: Sleight of Hand get more WBL than a Rogue without it?
Can the blacksmith fighter with Craft: Weapons skill make all his weapons for half price pre game? As a 1st level character?
Should the Profession: Gambler get more money pre game?
Everyone 'used' these abilities pre-game.
It's easier and fairer to introduce all characters with equal WBL , regardless of how they obtained it.
In summary, when created, characters have guidelines for their WBL. By letting the Craft magic feats modify these guidelines you are creating imbalance and unfairness.
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Are you saying a crafter shouldn't have more gear than a non-crafter?My point is a GM should obviously communicate with a player who has obviously been abusing the rules to gain unfair advantage:
"That's a lot of wands buddy, and a huge chunk of your WBL, now if you look at these guidelines here you should only have spent X% of your WBL on wands and non-weapon/armour items. So let's scale that back until you're closer to the percentages suggested on this table."
Basically the WBL rules are guidelines just because the crafter gains an advantage doesn't mean he has to abuse that advantage. It's trying to "win" Pathfinder, which is silly.
The opposite, you can have some wiggle room with those numbers, but to completely disregard them is abusive. That's why the guidelines exist.
It's like a character playing a Half-Orc, with Skill Focus Intimidate, 20 Cha, Intimidate as a Class Skill, Max Ranks and on top of that a magic item that provides further bonuses to intimidate. The DCs for Intimidate are mind-bogglingly low this character is going to scare the pants off people that are quite possbily double to triple his level. All of it is legal, but it's abusing the system to a level that is absurd. The d20 system should award specialization, but to overspecialize breaks things. If people can accept the limitations on the game (and accept limitations on their own character) then happiness will ensue.
Crafting Feats give FAR more bang for the buck then any other feats.
The argument is that you could have taken another feat instead, and so you don't have Weapon Focus.
But Craft Arms and Armor means that when you have +3 Armor and +3 Shield, I have +5...+4 AC for a feat.
You have a +5 Sword. I have a +7. Or, you have a +7, and I have a +10.
Find another feat that can DO that for you.
If we both have a +7 sword, then I have 50k more to spend/craft on something else. 50k can buy a LOT of toys...each as or more valuable then any mundane feat.
Craft Wondrous does the same thing. You have a +4 Str Item...I have +6. You have a +3 Cloak of Resistance, I have +5.
The extra gear you can afford from Crafting is worth far, far more then any other feat. It doubles the amount of inherent bonuses you can afford. It gives you breadth of choices on what to make.
That's the imbalancing power of the feat, as was pointed out.
SKR points out how it should give 150% wealth. That is technically true, if you don't advance beyond the power of items for your level. the 12.5k you save making the +5 Cloak of Resistance instead of buying it can then be spent on something else...but if you use that 12.5k to CRAFT more stuff, you get +100% WBL, not +50%. And this can very, very quickly get out of control.
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As for high level characters with crafting feats, I'd never let them come in with double gear. I'd simply rule their WBL CAME from people buying stuff they crafted, and that's all they have, equal with the other characters. Their crafting after they come in can follow the guidelines.
Really, the only thing limiting WBL is DM/PC agreements, and time ingame where it can apply. Indeed, its quite possible for a DM to simply restrict the amount of loot to the point where if you don't have a Crafter you are behind the curve.
Also note they liberalized the time constraints. It's no longer a 'wasted day' to do crafting. You can actively adventure and still do 4 hours of crafting a day. Previously, you could make the argument that you could choose to craft or adventure...and the rest of the party should be out adventuring while you made gear, leaving the crafter behind in xp and levels and loot. Not any more.
And with Rings of Sustenance, even the 4 hours is 'no cost'.
===Aelryinth
I can't count the number of roleplaying friends and associates who were absolutely thrilled to see the new FAQ entry! All the groups I've ever played in, BAR NONE, have handled wealth and crafting this way for over a decade now.
Keep up the good work, Mr. Reynolds, and don't let the naysayers get you down.
Ahh, Ravingdork, thanks for stopping by. What is your verdict on the question:
So I'm GMing a Pathfinder game, and want it to be at the "default" level of power.How much should I allow a new PC with crafting feats to make his own gear, and how much of his gear should he pay retail price for?
That's the house rule you've set at your table. There's nothing in the RAW that says this is difficult for anyone. The statements I've provided are also based on character creation and not in game where the mechanics of the RAW allow for crafter's to get items for half the cost that a non-crafter would.Finding someone to commission something in my games isn't the easiest task. I think that's why in games like mine, it doesn't diminish the usefulness of the Item Creation rules. In other games, where it's much easier, I'm sure it will have a different impact.This is the other half to the arguement that I responded to Bob_Loblaw;
If everyone starts at the same WBL, then the craft feat that affects wealth, and was taken at level x, has had no value to the character for that many levels since he has the same WBL as the non-crafters.
If the item value is the market value for everyone, and items can be commissioned by a character without the feat. This is what makes the feat lose value on creation beyond 1st. If it exists it is available, crafting rules exist because anyone can make or get anything. You just need to find someone...
That's not a house rule. To be a house rule, it would have to a modification to the current rules in some way. There is nothing that says that there are NPC commissioners just waiting around for the PCs to come by and ask for stuff. This is what Diplomacy is for.
It doesn't really matter one way or the other though. The original question was how to make crafting beneficial while still keeping everyone as close to WBL as possible. This is how we've been doing it in my games and it works great. It may not work in other games, but since it does work for my group it is possible that it could also work for other groups. I'm pretty sure that some of the GMs I've seen in this thread (mdt for example) run things pretty similarly. My method will not work for all groups, and your method clearly won't work for all groups (it does not work for mine, for example).
SKR points out how it should give 150% wealth. That is technically true, if you don't advance beyond the power of items for your level. the 12.5k you save making the +5 Cloak of Resistance instead of buying it can then be spent on something else...but if you use that 12.5k to CRAFT more stuff, you get +100% WBL, not +50%. And this can very, very quickly get out of control.
I want to point out that this isn't an official position. It's his personal opinion on what he thinks would be balanced but he is clearly talking about his own games. He can't suggest that it would be balanced for every game. This suggestion is not an official endorsement of any particular variance. He was asked for an opinion, not an official stance.
I can't count the number of roleplaying friends and associates who were absolutely thrilled to see the new FAQ entry! All the groups I've ever played in, BAR NONE, have handled wealth and crafting this way for over a decade now.
Keep up the good work, Mr. Reynolds, and don't let the naysayers get you down.
Ahh, Ravingdork, thanks for stopping by. What is your verdict on the question:
So I'm GMing a Pathfinder game, and want it to be at the "default" level of power.
How much should I allow a new PC with crafting feats to make his own gear, and how much of his gear should he pay retail price for?
There is no "default level of power" except the one you and your players set for yourselves. As such, you may follow the wealth by level "guidelines" as loosely or as strictly as you all like.
Playing the game the way you and your group wants is the only established "default" anywhere, as far as Paizo is concerned. Seeing as I share Paizo's oft-repeated viewpoint, that's as close to an answer as you'll get out of me on the matter.
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By not allowing the feats to have done anything prior to the game starting for characters higher than level 1, you've reduced the feat to nothing.
Yup. The fighter hasn't used power attack, the rogue hasn't used Skill Focus:Sleight of Hand, the cleric hasn't used extra channel, and the wizard hasn't used CWI to alter their starting conditions. All feats are nothing, all equal, all fair.
When the game now starts, they can start making items and break WBL. But until they can get the materials to craft with and then make those items, they have a power deficit to the people who are not crafters since the non-crafters have other feats that make them more powerful. Everyone starts with equal items and the guy who took craft feats wasted his time because he is lacking.
Your assumption that everyone gets to use their feats except the crafter is wrong. Most feats are situation specific. The game could start with a fight where the fighter uses her feats, some diplomacy where the 'face' uses his feats, or a day of prep where the crafter uses their feats.
As soon as the game starts the players can use their feats to shift game balance how they choose.But there is no feat disadvantage to starting out with WBL equal to everyone else because no one has used their feats yet.
Also, don't forget that neither a weapon nor an armor can have a higher than +5 rating. The only exception for this is epic weaponry. However, since there aren't any rules for epic weaponry, no crafter currently knows how to make them. The total combined bonus to any item is +10. This can be any mishmash of enhancement bonus and other abilities that come with a cost as laid out in the magic section.
I haven't been following this thread closely, so someone may have already made this point, but I just had a thought: There's a trait that grants 900 gold to a 1st level character (replacing the usual ~100, so it's more like +800). That's enough to purchase a masterwork weapon and armor, plus a bunch of other gear. Wealth-by-level says that a 2nd level character should have 1,000 gp. Would anyone say that characters who take that trait should only find 100gp worth of treasure during their first level?
A trait is supposed to be worth half a feat. Would anyone object to a feat (that can be taken at 1st level) which grants a flat 1800 gold? 3rd level characters are only supposed to have 3000, and a character with that feat would start at over halfway there. Practically there if you let it stack with the trait (which most feats do).
The usual counter to this imbalance is "Sure, he might be more powerful at lower levels, but in the long run the difference is insignificant and he'll be down a trait." Obviously, the item crafting feats would continue scaling to continue their bonuses, whereas these static ones wouldn't. But at character creation, which is the only time the Wealth-by-level chart directly matters, it's the same question.
Buncha stuff.You're still bound by the 3 times level to enchant the item. Since you're not getting those +3 weapons/armor until level 9ish the guy who wants a +4 enhancement is out of luck since he's not level 12 and then 15 for the +5. You could add on some of the other bonuses but you're talking a lot of wealth that scales quickly. It's 18000gp for a +3 and 50000gp for a +5.
and other stuff.
Actually, the caster level limit is not a limitation in Pathfinder.
It means you take a +5 DC to the Spellcraft check is all. And lo, you can make yourself a +10 to +20 toy of Spellcraft bonus quite cheaply, no? And it's a great use of time.
The three main items characters use that are pricey are Rings, Wondrous Items and Arms/Armor. Two of those will satisfy 90% of your needs, and those are the ones you can take as a Magical Artisan.
So, yes, it would be VERY easy to get close to 200% WBL, with just CWI and CWA&A.
YOur only limitations would be time and available cash.
==Aelryinth
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There's a trait that grants 900 gold to a 1st level character
Haven't raised the rich parents trait for the very reasons you mention.
But at character creation, which is the only time the Wealth-by-level chart directly matters, it's the same question.
Nope. Because that one off input is gone, never to return. The craft feats are the gift that keeps on giving. In a high magic world with magic shops everywhere, the crafting feats will save you thousands. In a low magic world you also get access to stuff that isn't readily available.
The only time I'd say to a Craft player, "You can start with some stuff at cost." would be for a campaign with no downtime. In which case my advice would probably be "That character concept won't work well for this campaign."WBL chart is also useful for tracking how overpowered or underpowered your campaign is, and how much some NPC's have. Very useful for less experienced GMs.
I think letting crafting change WBL for a new character undermines this message.Then suggest a way for characters to use crafting feats while maintaining the WBL standards, yet doesn't result in them receiving less treasure overall than a character without a crafting feat.
Late to the party, I know, but I always figured that this was the reason that 3.0/3.5 had an XP cost associated with crafting magic items.
The 'special' part of the enhancement/bonus thing is the min CL = 3x bonus, as opposed to 'Greater Magic Weapon' or "Magical Vestment", which are much lower level spell effects, and so forth. i.e. you can't have a +5 Ring of Prot with a level 5 caster, even though Shield of Faith is a 1st level spell.
:P
As for the xp...that was never a really serious reason. First, you made more experience if you were a lower level then the rest of the party, which meant you 'earned' more then they did, and so caught back up quickly. Secondly, the cost was so minor, you could basically go out and kill a couple of monsters and pay for most magic items.
Then they started liberalizing it with crafting feats, crafting homonculi, etc.
Note that if you didn't allow the 'extra xp for lower level', you'd frequently end up with a crafter a level behind the rest of the party...but with quite a bit more gear to make up for it.
Best crafter was a henchman...he got free levels no matter what, so he could just craft away.
===Aelryinth
