Quite simply, there is no guidance on how to count crafted items towards WBL. So you can rule it either way as DM.
Very true. Hence, me asking about intent in this thread. However, since the rules are finite, as you've said, so are their application. Thus, if crafting simply states I only spend half an item's base cost to create it then that's all that happens. The "this item's entire value counts toward WBL" argument doesn't magically become true. That argument is faulty with itself because even those paragraphs state it's representative of treasure AND gold and crafting just describes a possible application of that gold. So, if I have the gold and can make the DCs I can make the item, rules wise. End of story.
As far as I understand it, your character gets a starting amount of gp. From then on, it just keeps getting treasure and gold. It can sell treasure if it wishes. Crafting simply states one possible use of that gold, regardless if it's acquired through selling gear and gold you are simply given. That's pretty much the end of it. Anything outside of this is houserule. There are suggestions for GM on maintaining balance but that is subjective. The only objective thing that happens that, I, as a player creating a character, see it as I've just stated. Roleplay-wise, I need the materials, tools and setting to craft, but that's not the target of this thread. Well, I can see how it's included, but to a minor degree.
I've been advocating limiting the acquisition of materials and/or appropriate places with which to craft. This is consistent with the rules as crafting requires gp to buy materials, the materials themselves and the time and skill to make the item. Limiting any of those things directly limits crafting. However, denying a character the ability to make something because it props the total value of their gear above their level's WBL number makes no sense and doesn't play into the crafting mechanic at all. Thus, doing so is no longer assuming a finite rule-set.
True, for level 1 only.
Show me where that's true for level 1 only. Again, the rules are finite. They can only be applied as they are stated to apply.
"Value" in GP =/= "amount" of GPs.
No, however, stating "Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces" is equal to an "amount" of gp. There is no level clause in that statement. Each and every character begins play with a number of gold pieces. That's just how it is. Then, you are referred to another table if you're above level 1. That doesn't change the fact you start with an amount of gold pieces.
What other method are you referring to?
Before it was heirloom weapon, granting a free weapon of your pick.
They removed that once firearms came out, limiting it to proficency with a single simple or martial weapon.The other method is effectively the gunslinger, I don't agree that because the sell price is 4d10 on his gun, that it's value is reduced to that. Just like me selling a Holy Avenger to a party member for 4d10 does not reduce the swords value.
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Show me where that's true for level 1 only. Again, the rules are finite. They can only be applied as they are stated to apply.
Oh, please...
"Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment."
"For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level."
"For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins."
I'll not copy-paste these for all eternity.
Show me where that's true for level 1 only. Again, the rules are finite. They can only be applied as they are stated to apply.Oh, please...
"Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment."
"For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level."
"For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins."
I'll not copy-paste these for all eternity.
*Same reaction, different quote*
"Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest;"
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment. As a character adventures, he accumulates more wealth that can be spent on better gear and magic items. Table: Starting Character Wealth lists the starting gold piece values by class. In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level.The arguments based on that first sentence that say it's a value representation forget that value can not be spent but gold can, or at least Pathfinder does not define such a concept. "Spending value," to me, is like drinking a potion or activating a scroll. Spending gold, however, gets you stuff.
I wonder about that first bolded line. It reads to me like someone was trying to say something fairly simple without thinking about the possible ramifications that could have resulted from imprecise use of language.
Question: Does it stretch the bounds of verisimilitude that every character created after 1st level appears in a Matrix-like scene with weapons and armor and potions as far as the eye can see with a huge bag of gold (or the game equivalent of a Dave & Buster's card)....and one guy at the end with a cash register...Just on the other side of the cash register is a fully furnished item crafter's paradise! ;)
Of course it's ridiculous, but that's exactly the situation that is described by a literal reading of 'Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces...' Each and every character shows up with a wad of cash, picks what they want, and then retires to the item crafting station to fix the rest. It might make sense for some characters to come into existence that way...but all of them?
You can't even describe a narrative of character growth using that value (I got this splint mail +1 and replaced it with full plate +2 at 6th level, blah, blah) because you'd end up with less value at the end from the buying and the selling. (Yes, I am aware that a sensible narrative of character growth could include saving platinums for crafting. It's not relevant to my point)
From the standpoint of an eternally consistent story (we are playing roles, right?), the only sensible reading of that line deals with the literal value at the end of things. But it's much easier to write 'your character starts with x gold' than something like 'when done, the total value of items on your character will not exceed the value listed on the corresponding wbl table for your level.' It's easier to read the former, too.
Granted, I'm not trying to argue RAW. But I doubt I'll ever be able to create a new character without imagining the gun racks from Matrix flashing by at unimaginable speeds thanks to this thread.
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Thus, if crafting simply states I only spend half an item's base cost to create it then that's all that happens. The "this item's entire value counts toward WBL" argument doesn't magically become true.
It doesn't have to become true, it already is. Crafting feats only adjust the cost of an item. The value does not change, because the bonus/ability that item grants is still the same, and the value of an item is based on the in-game effect that item provides.
It doesn't have to become true, it already is. Crafting feats only adjust the cost of an item. The value does not change, because the bonus/ability that item grants is still the same, and the value of an item is based on the in-game effect that item provides.
The uncaused cause! Everyone! God is the "market value of items can't exceed the WBL number" rule! Either that or you're just making it up. The cost of an item is based it's materials and constituent components x 2. The value of an item is a result of correlation, not causation. A Holy Avenger is just a +5 weapon with the holy descriptor. It doesn't do anything else, yet is more pricey than items that boost an ability score +6, and just a few thousand shy of an item that can do the same with either all mental abilities or physical, which, is a much more potent change.
I was going to argue more when suddenly I realized something...
This is like watching children in a class arguing over a toy.
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Yes it is!
No it isn't!
Need I continue?
The point is the WBL doesn't give guidelines over crafting. And it doesn't look like the developers are going to step in to the middle of this one. So everything is left in the GMs hands. Arguing over who's house rules are best is silly and pointless.
I agree! Keep FAQ-ing! We're up to 36. This doesn't compel anything to happen, granted. LOL. But, we can hope.
TOZ , Buri you two are shameless.
But I can see where it's kinda fun...
So, if I'm running a low-powered game, keeping WBL at half the listed value, how to I calculate a characters WBL?
Halve the amount listed in the table as it says to do. Thus, characters start with half as much gold. They get half the gear. This directly halves how much a crafter can potentially craft as well. It's up to you to halve Rich Parents, though, cuz 900 gp is 400 more than half of "standard" level 2 (1,000 gp).
Khrysaor no insult was intended. It was a perfect observation. But then I think you already see it.
All seems to go in circles though.
Like the children in my example do you think continuing such an endless cycle of restated arguments is going to actually resolve anything? Neither side has a single solid rule supporting it. And the developers aren't going to give an answer (probably because they don't have one).
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So, if I'm running a low-powered game, keeping WBL at half the listed value, how to I calculate a characters WBL?All the WBL guidelines are still applicable regardless of game power if WBL is to be true. In this case you already stated it's 1/2*WBL.
My question is how do I calculate his current WBL after X number of sessions?
All the WBL guidelines are still applicable regardless of game power if WBL is to be true. In this case you already stated it's 1/2*WBL.
My question is how do I calculate his current WBL after X number of sessions?
Yeah... I imagine I'm going to get a lot of flack based on what I've seen here. However, here goes:
You don't. You can, if you so choose, of course, if that's the sort of bar you hold your campaigns to. However, generally speaking all you should really care about is if the party is doing about as well as you're expecting them to. You can make an assessment of the value of their items. However, you should simply evaluate if they're on course with how things should be going as you've planned. This can branch out into an almost infinite facets of campaign balance. But, for terms of wealth, if they're struggling fight after fight, you should probably toss them some extra loot, lower CR or something similar, or kill them if there's truly no other option and they've been goofing off but skating by on pure luck somehow. If they're not even trying then don't give them so much or increase encounter CR. The point is that if the party is doing okay with the various elements thrown their way and the players are having fun then why do you care what their gear value is in relation to WBL past character creation?
WBL trumps everything about wealth, always. Equally, crafting trumps WBL as it's specific on how it affects wealth. Regardless though, there will be no solution in this thread, or any thread on these forums about this, and it will always be up to GM discretion.
Oh come now! WBL is a suggestion (that's what a guideline is) for starting characters that are higher than level 1, not a rule. And crafting was clearly not considered when the table was made. So tell me where are the solid rules... there aren't any.
But you are right when you say it is the GMs out there at each table who will make the rulings. And those rulings will probably all be different. So I ask again... why keep arguing?
All the WBL guidelines are still applicable regardless of game power if WBL is to be true. In this case you already stated it's 1/2*WBL.My question is how do I calculate his current WBL after X number of sessions?
Yeah... I imagine I'm going to get a lot of flack based on what I've seen here. However, here goes:
You don't. You can, if you so choose, of course, if that's the sort of bar you hold your campaigns to. However, generally speaking all you should really care about is if the party is doing about as well as you're expecting them to. You can make an assessment of the value of their items. However, you should simply evaluate if they're on course with how things should be going as you've planned. This can branch out into an almost infinite facets of campaign balance. But, for terms of wealth, if they're struggling fight after fight, you should probably toss them some extra loot, lower CR or something similar, or kill them if there's truly no other option and they've been goofing off but skating by on pure luck somehow. If they're not even trying then don't give them so much or increase encounter CR. The point is that if the party is doing okay with the various elements thrown their way and the players are having fun then why do you care what their gear value is in relation to WBL past character creation?
I've found that having a general idea of where the party is in relation to the WBL chart is useful for things like, "So how much is this art we found worth?"
Just check where they are in relation to where they need to be, and blam! instant pricing.
Doesnt need to be precise though.
I've found that having a general idea of where the party is in relation to the WBL chart is useful for things like, "So how much is this art we found worth?"
Just check where they are in relation to where they need to be, and blam! instant pricing.
Doesnt need to be precise though.
Now we're getting into specifics where your mental perceptions are different from mine. However, in that scenario, mostly likely I would keep the piece of art the same value. If it's a plot device, or "expected" item, it is what it is. However, I may allow a knowledge check for someone to "remember" about another valuable item nearby depending on the situation. That's assuming the party needs a wealth boost.
And I can use this to make sure a character isn't a higher CR than the rest of the party?
Note, being high on the WBL chart on its own may not shift a characters CR: you also need to account for the fact that they are missing a feat which otherwise would be expected to increase their combat abilities.
So... its more complicated than just consulting the chart.
For characters above 1st level, see Table: Character Wealth by Level
There's two ways to read that line:
1) Refer to wealth by level to get the GP number to apply the rules of the previous paragraph
2) The previous paragraph defines the rules for 1st level charracters, for characters starting above 1st level, nevermind those rules and see the rules in the section with the table Wealth by Character Level.
I can see how the first interpretation seems right, but there's a couple problems.
First there's more rules about how it all works than just the chart, which indicates that the meaning is to use those rules in the case of higher level characters, not these rules for 1st level characters.
Second, and most importantly, the stated purpose of the chart is to define guidline of wealth by level as an absolute. i.e - if the PC is x level, it should have around Y wealth. Period. If it was meant to be significantly variable depending what feats the character had, it'd say so, or there'd be two charts, one for characters without crafting, and another for crafters.
Because of this, the line should be rightly read to refer the reader to the other rules section altogether, not just for the limited purpose of finding the number to plug into the 1st level rules.
More fun facts.
1) Experience and encounter rewards are based on CR.
2) CR difficulty is based on APL.
3) No where in calculated APL is gear or abilities taken into account. The same is true to CR.
4) CR awards do not change for a particular CR except for experience and then only when APL exceeds CR by 10 or more. However, they still get treasure from the encounter.
Disclaimer: all the above is determined only by the Gamemastering section.
Thought: WBL is strangely absent from those points.
Conclusion: Other than being an audit tool the GM can use if they so choose, WBL is largely a non-factor. Also, CR =/= APL. Furthermore, APL is the only thing weighed in the balance when determining how hard a paritcular CR is against the party.
You gotta read the entire paragraph so you can see that the matrix doesn't have you. This is all gear you've bought, or found adventuring in the course of your career. This is the factor no one pays attention to. Time. It's effects are the same as the matrix when creating a character because you can choose whatever you want and time isn't a restriction. The only thing that has to be stuck by is that no more than 50% of your wealth should be spent on one item. The other values will vary based on character type and concept. So really, that's the one and only restriction being placed on crafters. No more than 50% of your wealth should be spent on gold. This still means the crafter will have 50% more wealth than the others that don't craft and they will exceed the WBL of the next level before the rest of the party but it keeps it roughly on par with just one level ahead.
No, I am reading the whole paragraph. I just don't think that the situation that's being described logically follows.
Part of the problem is that no character has ever found ONLY the items that they can use over the course of a career. There is always give and take. There's always a matter of 'I'll sell my +2 blah that I bought a level ago because that demon was wielding a +3 Keen blah and I'd rather have that'. If you're given a 630000 gp credit card, you cannot emulate that narrative. You're only describing the end result (The +3 Keen blah).
That's my point, really. If all you can describe is the end result, then HOW you got an item is irrelevant to the narrative. Whether you bought it, found it, made it, or reached down and pulled it out of a stone, the only thing that matters is the end result (that you posses such and such an item). At that point, the only viable argument left is whether an item is WORTH less because it would, theoretically, cost less to acquire. That premise is flawed though. You've already agreed that the idea of a one-stop-supermarket is not valid:
This is all gear you've bought, or found adventuring in the course of your career.
So if I found that +1 holy longsword in a dragon's horde, why do I have to pay 18000 gp for it at character creation? I didn't buy it. It doesn't actually represent money that I spent on it. No, it's -value- is determined by its buy-off-the-shelf cost per the various tables and formulas. So what ground does the crafter have to stand on to say that it should have a lower -value- because he could make it for less than I could buy it off the shelf...when we've both agreed that I possibly didn't actually buy it...?
More fun facts.
...
2) CR difficulty is based on APL.
3) No where in calculated APL is gear or abilities taken into account.
I agree the rules are not very clear, but that's not totally true. If you read the section on evaluating the CR of an NPC with class levels, you'll see you add 1 to the CR if they are geared according to PC WBL. So for a PC classed character with a PC's WBL, CR and character level are the same. If they have an NPC's value of gear, their CR is their level -1.
So, if a PC has an NPC's value of gear, then thy're one step lower in power than their level would indicate. By extention, if they have the gear of a PC a level higher than them, they could be a step higher, etc.
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I hurts my Soul that this thread has 702 post on it.
Now 704. :)