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Good evening, all.
I agree that 3.5s version of magic staves was a bit too much, what with them having 50 charges. But in Pathfinder, I think we went a little too far in other direction: ten charges? [b]Ten[b]?
Is there anyone out there that actually spend their money on a Staff of Fire or a Staff of Power now? I think they would be just about perfect at 25 charges, or even 20, but being able to use some staffs a mere five times before they are exhausted?
Does anyone else have this problem with magic staves?
Master Arminas
Unlike 3.5 staves, Pathfinder staves are rechargeable!
From the PRD:
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.
You know, WWJ, I just looked back over the Craft Staff feat, the magic item creation rules, and finally the Staff section in the magic items description. I never saw that before today. That does change things rather dramatically, doesn't it?
Ok, thanks for pointing that out.
Master Arminas
You're welcome! :D
So, if I am reading this correctly, you don't even need the Craft Staff feat to recharge a staff. However, you can only give a staff one charge per day, and you have to give up a prepared spell or spell slot equal to the highest level spell in the staff. And you can only recharge a staff when you regain spell slots or prepare new spells. Right?
Master Arminas
Yes. And at least one spell from the staff must be on recharging character's spell list - so Wizard won't be able to recharge staff of healing but Bard or Witch could.
In general, I think the APG staves are much more reasonably priced than the CRB staves.
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Best for sorcerers. Eating the slot to recharge doesn't hurt nearly as much and gives them access to those highly situational spells like water breathing.
Anyone actually checked the math? Because they seem to be focusing more on low-level spells and this would impact their price a lot.
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Good evening, all.
I agree that 3.5s version of magic staves was a bit too much, what with them having 50 charges. But in Pathfinder, I think we went a little too far in other direction: ten charges? [b]Ten[b]?
Is there anyone out there that actually spend their money on a Staff of Fire or a Staff of Power now? I think they would be just about perfect at 25 charges, or even 20, but being able to use some staffs a mere five times before they are exhausted?
Does anyone else have this problem with magic staves?
Master Arminas
Yes. Pathfinder staffs suck. Nobody in my group has touched them since we started playing Pathfinder, except myself who was trying to find a way to make them viable. In short, there isn't much of a way. In virtually all cases, you will get more bang for your buck by just getting pearls of power, because while the staffs recharge, they recharge at a maximum of 1 spell per day, and drain your spells to do so; and you pay out the butt for what is supposedly the equivalent of 50 charges; but you're getting robbed. Pathfinder staffs are terrible and should burn in a fire.
If you want recharging staffs that work, and fit with the item creation rules, us an x/day charge instead. 5/day charges is the same as 50/- charges in pricing, and can be tweaked up any down easily (each charge is worth 1/5th the 50 charge price). These charges refill each day on their own, making the staff less of a waste of time, money, and effort.
So let's say I wanted to make a staff of charming with 5 charges per day. By item creation rules, that's the same value is the standard staff, so congratulations, we now have a staff that has...
5 Charges Per Day
- 1 charge casts charm person
- 2 charges cast charm monster
Market price: 17,600 gp
Now what if we wanted to make a lesser version? That only had 2 charges per day? Easy. The cost per charge is 3,520 gp. So we instead get...
2 Charges Per Day
- 1 charge casts charm person
- 2 charges casts charm monster
Market Price: 7,040 gp
You could also make particularly legendary staffs my increasing the charges further still. For literally double the price, you could get double the charges, granting you a staff with 10/day charges.
But yeah, PF staffs are aweful.
The magic staff has improved since 3E days thanks to the recharge mechanic, but I personally would never buy or craft one. You still don't receive as much bang for your buck, IMO. Maybe if they weren't so expensive I'd like them, but as is I'll pass.
That's not to say that I won't use one if I find or loot it; a "free" Staff of Fire is nothing to sneeze at, after all. But as far as buying one or spending a feat to craft them, I wouldn't waste my time and resources.
@OP's question.
Yes.
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Anyone actually checked the math? Because they seem to be focusing more on low-level spells and this would impact their price a lot.
Yes. I checked the Math a while back and mentioned it here
For example:
Core: Staff of Charming
-Charm Monster: level 4, 2 charges = 400*4*8/2=6400
-Charm Person: level 1: 1 charge = 300*1*8=2400
Total Cost = 6400+2400 = 8800
Core book price = 17600
APG: Staff of Toxins
-Cloudkill: level 5, 2 charges = 400*5*9/2=9000
-Stinking Cloud: level 3, 1 charge = 300*3*8=7200
Total Cost = 9000+7200 = 16200
APG Book price = 16200
(Note: minimum caster level for staves is level 8)
EDIT: Oh and no staves include material components costs
APG: Staff of Toxins
-Cloudkill: level 5, 2 charges = 400*5*9/2=9000
-Stinking Cloud: level 3, 1 charge = 300*3*8=7200
Total Cost = 9000+7200 = 16200
APG Book price = 16200
It's even more complicated because currently PRD has staff of toxins priced at 12,600 instead (creation cost 6,300) while the cost according to calculation should be 17,100 (you calculated stinking cloud at CL 8 instad of 9 - all spells in the staff use the same CL).
People tend to forget that the "formula" is the second way to price an item. The first, as has been incessantly repeated by SKR, is to compare against other items that do similar things.
Using the formula to get around staves is cheesy at best.
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People tend to forget that the "formula" is the second way to price an item. The first, as has been incessantly repeated by SKR, is to compare against other items that do similar things.
Using the formula to get around staves is cheesy at best.
It's worked since 3E, and as much as I love Mr. Reynolds (I even have a book signed by him), I'm rarely impressed with his mechanics. I got into an argument with him once on the forums, because he felt clerics should be able to cast some spells to make themselves as strong as Fighters, Paladins, etc, because "they have all the fun" or some such. I asked if we could expect some sourcebooks which allowed Fighters to summon celestial hordes or raise the dead via a combat feat or two; which just irritated him, but I think it got the point across.
He got his way though, since there's already a cleric spell in Pathfinder that basically turns you into a 10th level Paladin in addition to being a 20th level cleric (giving you smites, divine grace, lay on hands, etc, of a Paladin of 1/2 your caster level). When I read it, I was almost certain he was probably behind that spell, given our previous conversation...
But yeah, I've had more luck with the 3E item creation mechanics, which haven't changed since 3E was created by Monte Cook and the gang, than I've had with some of the new Pathfinder materials that have been coming out, or with Sean K. Reynold's material or game design concepts (the cleric thing still just blows my mind, to think that full casters, clerics especially, are already capable of rocking socks in melee, while possessing godly power, and he still thinks his cleric should be able to "have fun too"). While many of their revisions to the core rules were nice, and in some cases very needed, Staffs are not one of their strong points; nor is some of the splat material that has emerged.
Using the formula to get around staves is cheesy at best.
On a side note, which formula cheese are you talking about? Are you talking about my comments on x/day staffs using the formula that pre-existed Pathfinder staffs, and has been functioning well since before Pathfinder staffs existed?
Mayhaps you mean a formula that doesn't trap the character by making them pay for nothing and making them think they get something? I mean, you pay out the rear for some sort of spell-trigger casting apparatus, which only sucks up your own spells, burns through spell charges faster than you can recharge them from your own reserves, and as noted by most people in this thread, aren't something anyone would ever buy or craft.
Sayer of Nay summed it up great. If you were giving them away for free, sure, he'd gladly take some. But as is they're worthless, because no one who has any concept of the game, the value of their time and gold, or how the mechanics works, will want to buy, craft, or even steal the stupid things because it's not worth the time and effort.
So obviously their formula/mechanics doesn't work. People still want wands, rods, wondrous items, and so forth. The one item nobody wants anymore is the staff, and it is the one item that was drastically changed. So exactly where did the problem arise?
Not in the 3.x item creation mechanics, that is for certain.
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APG: Staff of Toxins
-Cloudkill: level 5, 2 charges = 400*5*9/2=9000
-Stinking Cloud: level 3, 1 charge = 300*3*8=7200
Total Cost = 9000+7200 = 16200
APG Book price = 16200It's even more complicated because currently PRD has staff of toxins priced at 12,600 instead (creation cost 6,300) while the cost according to calculation should be 17,100 (you calculated stinking cloud at CL 8 instad of 9 - all spells in the staff use the same CL).
Oops I hadn't even spotted the digits were in the wrong order - stupid brain seeing what it expects rather than what is there ;-)
So it is half the price of the slightly incorrect formula, and then a transposition error makes it even cheaper.
The fact folks aren't all over the APG staves - even though they cost half (or less) what the formula says they should - speaks volumes about the usefulness and take up of staves.
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People tend to forget that the "formula" is the second way to price an item. The first, as has been incessantly repeated by SKR, is to compare against other items that do similar things.
Using the formula to get around staves is cheesy at best.
It's worked since 3E, and as much as I love Mr. Reynolds (I even have a book signed by him), I'm rarely impressed with his mechanics. I got into an argument with him once on the forums, because he felt clerics should be able to cast some spells to make themselves as strong as Fighters, Paladins, etc, because "they have all the fun" or some such. I asked if we could expect some sourcebooks which allowed Fighters to summon celestial hordes or raise the dead via a combat feat or two; which just irritated him, but I think it got the point across.
He got his way though, since there's already a cleric spell in Pathfinder that basically turns you into a 10th level Paladin in addition to being a 20th level cleric (giving you smites, divine grace, lay on hands, etc, of a Paladin of 1/2 your caster level). When I read it, I was almost certain he was probably behind that spell, given our previous conversation...
But yeah, I've had more luck with the 3E item creation mechanics, which haven't changed since 3E was created by Monte Cook and the gang, than I've had with some of the new Pathfinder materials that have been coming out, or with Sean K. Reynold's material or game design concepts (the cleric thing still just blows my mind, to think that full casters, clerics especially, are already capable of rocking socks in melee, while possessing godly power, and he still thinks his cleric should be able to "have fun too"). While many of their revisions to the core rules were nice, and in some cases very needed, Staffs are not one of their strong points; nor is some of the splat material that has emerged.
Using the formula to get around staves is cheesy at best.On a side note, which formula cheese are you talking about? Are you...
As I have oft noted, Paizo did a solid job with Core since there were almost 10 years of practice...but others...not so much.
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I actually really like magical staves, although I do wish the number of charges they could hold was a little higher ...
I might suggest that you all take a look at Krazy Kragnar's Magic Staff Emporium from Super Genius Games. It introduces things like scaling versions of staves (lesser, standard and greater versions, along with rules to upgrade from lesser to standard and standard to greater) lesser staves in general (and a new feat to make them) that can be created at a lower level and at a lower cost, and new recharge mechanics tied to the staves theme which allow recharging at double the rate.
There are also 10 all new staves included (each with a leasser, standard and greater version):
Staff of Binding
Crystal Staff
Staff of the Four Winds
Staff of Scrying
Staff of Spiders
Stone Staff
Staff of Thorns
Staff of the White Necromancer
Staff of Winter
Umbral Staff
If you are at all interested in magic staves, please check it out :)
Well a staff magus gets decent return for their money as well as being able to recharge them quite well, I think staves are good value especially in adventures using slow advancement, and not so much non-stop action.
Using your own caster level and feats with the casting of spells from the staff is very nice, maybe not the ultimate optimizer tool but I like the flavor.
Looking at the price guidelines and the listed price of the staves in the PRD, are those price suggestions suppossed to be the cost to create? Because every staff I have 'reverse-engineered' so far is close to twice the price listed in the guidelines (400 gp x highest level spell x caster + 75% of next highest level spell + 50% of all other spells).
That is . . . wierd. Every other price in the guidelines is listed as market value, with the creation cost being half. Was this deliberate?
Master Arminas
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I have only ever made one staff for a character. This is a high level conjurer. He has all the spells he needs to use Greater Planar binding. Doing so burns all 10 charges, but is a good trick. I included the portable calling diagram because it's part of the toolkit for this trick.
It very well may be overpriced, but it's a useful trick, just in case.
12) Portable Calling diagram -30’X30’X12’’ stone slab reinforced with adamantine rods
a. Slab has a shrink item and permanency effect, which allows it to be shrunk and take on a cloth like consistency and be folded up.
b. Currently folded to the size of a handkerchief and carried in pathfinder pouch
13) Binding Staff The only staff Belgraen ever made(currently carried in pathfinder pouch)
a. Wielder is protected as if under the protection from evil and protection from good spells
b. Greater Planar Binding (5chgs)
c. Dimensional Anchor (2chgs)
d. Magic circle vs. good (2chgs)
e. Magic circle vs. evil (2chgs)
f. Eagles Splendor (1 chg)
I love the idea of staves: uses the wielder's level and bonuses, is rechargeable, etc. There are two things that get in the way of staves being awesome, and both are mechanical.
First, minimum caster level 8 means that low-level spells from a staff are vastly too expensive. There's just no way to make a staff of 1st & second level spells cost effective.
Second, the amount of downtime in a campaign has a huge influence on how good staves are. I'm in a Kingmaker campaign right now, and we have more than ten days between each game session, which means that any staff could be full at 10 charges every 4th fight. In a faster paced game, recharging a staff could be burdensome.
I could see some small changes eliminating both of these problems.
If you want recharging staffs that work, and fit with the item creation rules, us an x/day charge instead. 5/day charges is the same as 50/- charges in pricing, and can be tweaked up any down easily (each charge is worth 1/5th the 50 charge price). These charges refill each day on their own . . .
I like the idea of hybridizing the rules for staves with the charges/day rules! I'm going to investigate the math of this.
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Looking at the price guidelines and the listed price of the staves in the PRD, are those price suggestions suppossed to be the cost to create? Because every staff I have 'reverse-engineered' so far is close to twice the price listed in the guidelines (400 gp x highest level spell x caster + 75% of next highest level spell + 50% of all other spells).
That is . . . wierd. Every other price in the guidelines is listed as market value, with the creation cost being half. Was this deliberate?
Master Arminas
This confusion is what I assume is the source of the price difference between the core book and the APG. Oops.
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I like the idea of hybridizing the rules for staves with the charges/day rules! I'm going to investigate the math of this.
Heh I was already doing that, sparked by this thread. My take is staves come out on top when:
1) they only contain one spell
2) They take 2 charges per use
3) Spells are 3rd level or higher
In this situation staves appear to beat all other items for cost efficiency.
Which suggests how you might hybridize them...
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If you want recharging staffs that work, and fit with the item creation rules, us an x/day charge instead. 5/day charges is the same as 50/- charges in pricing, and can be tweaked up any down easily (each charge is worth 1/5th the 50 charge price). These charges refill each day on their own . . .I like the idea of hybridizing the rules for staves with the charges/day rules! I'm going to investigate the math of this.
I've been using this method since before Pathfinder existed. It has worked wonders for years. It keeps staffs relevant, prevents spamming of spells, and makes staffs fit exceptionally well from a narrative perspective.
One of the problems with x/- staffs is fridge logic. You begin to wonder why some ancient staff you found still has lots of charges left, since they probably would have been consumed by their previous owner, never to return without re-enchanting.
The second problem is merely that some people really hate wand/staff spamming, where you have 50/- charges, and then blow through charges spamming certain spells every round. "You're casting fireball again? You've cast that spell at least ten times in this fight alone." - "Yeah but I've got another 33 charges, so don't worry."
Finally, some people - especially new players - are wary of wands and staffs with x/- charges because they're afraid they will be a waste of a magic item. This is mainly because most won't see the benefit of having them, and just see it as a magic item that will eventually turn into an inert stick. This drawback was of course balanced by the fact you can either A) spam the spell with reckless abandon regardless of your spell slots, or B) will use the spell infrequently, causing it to last the whole campaign anyway.
With x/day wands and staffs, you get the best of both worlds. A staff or wand is a special thing indeed, because it will last forever if you take care of it. So when you find an ancient staff deep in a tomb somewhere, there's no fridge logic as to why it still has charges left. Likewise, since the default usage is 5/day with x/day items, you will be able to use your shiny toy plenty, but you won't be able to spam it a ton. Finally, you never feel like you're wasting anything, because your shiny toy doesn't ever burn out.
It is also convenient for making lesser and greater versions. Since each charge is worth 1/5th of the normal market price, you can have lesser or greater wands or staffs, such as those with 1/day charges or 8/day charges, allowing you to set the price and overall power rather conveniently.
For example, if you want a wand of secure shelter, you might make it a 1/day item because you use it to carry your wizard's house around with you. Likewise, a 1/day or 2/day knock spell might be useful for when your rogue doesn't have enough time to pick a lock when you're making your party's escape, but wouldn't otherwise be worth having a wand of in most cases.
Likewise, for particularly impressive wands or staffs, you could increase the charges per day by adding an additional 1/5th of the base price to the item for each additional charge. So a staff with 10/day charges would cost twice as much, but last twice as long before it exhausted its power (this is similar to just having twos staffs really, but it's more thematic, and suits particularly nice staffs more).
It also makes it easier to make exceptionally cool items. For example...
Let's say I want to make a staff that was wielded by a grand archmage centuries ago, and after a long series of tests and challenges, the party manages to find his tomb, meet his ghost, and get entrusted with the power of the mage's beatstick.
So I decide I want this staff to be like a mini-artifact in value and power. So I whip out the calculations and end up with the following item.
+3/+3 Spell Storing/Spell Storing Darkwood Quarterstaff, magically treated to have increased HP and Hardness according to the enhancement found in the environmental rules section (see walls), which also functions as a magic staff. It has 10 charges per day, and casts about 12 different spells with varying spell levels and different charges (I have most of the higher level spells consume multiple charges to get a discount to keep the price a bit more reasonable).
To arrive at the value of the item, I would have just
1) Determined the price of the magic weapon.
2) Determined the value of the staff based on the highest spell-trigger, then added the next highest value at 75% cost, and additional spells at 50% cost. Then divide this number by 5 to see cost per charge.
3) Add up the cost per charge for 10 charges.
With x/day wands and staffs, you get the best of both worlds. . .
Do you still use the staff wielder's level and attribute bonus for calculating spell effects?
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With x/day wands and staffs, you get the best of both worlds. . .Do you still use the staff wielder's level and attribute bonus for calculating spell effects?
Absolutely. That's really the only thing that makes staffs anything more than glorified wands. The only thing we've done here was make it charges per day with less charges (so 50/- becomes 5/day). Everything else works the exact same way, and it works very, very well. It's a method I've been using since before Pathfinder existed, and it's based on 3.5 staffs which had 50/- charges. I first experimented with it as a test of the item creation guidelines, and as a possible answer to the two problems with wands/staffs that pop up in gameplay (1- spammable, 2- burning out). The result has been entirely positive.
If you're not interested in allowing characters to use their own caster levels and such, I'd seriously consider house ruling Craft Wand into Craft Spell-Trigger Item, and allow you to just make wands from 0-9th level, just like Dorjes in the psionics rules (in psionics, you have dorjes which are 50/- wands for things between 1st and 9th level, while Psicrowns are the Staff version, which actually have a certain amount of power/charges and multiple types of powers/spells using the same pool).
I'd use Ashiel's abilities for custom staff-shaped items but I would also keep regular staves as well. However, I am gonna include additional recharging options for them. I still fondly remember Dragonlance staves - crystal staff carried by Crysania and Staff Of Magius and they moon/sun based recharging abilities.
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Ashiel, love your idea for staffs, and am promptly stealing it. Thanks!
Ashiel that is a GREAT way to deal with Staves. I LOVE IT!
Thanks guys. I'm glad you liked them.
I'd use Ashiel's abilities for custom staff-shaped items but I would also keep regular staves as well. However, I am gonna include additional recharging options for them. I still fondly remember Dragonlance staves - crystal staff carried by Crysania and Staff Of Magius and they moon/sun based recharging abilities.
Actually I use both in my games, for different reasons! :D
See, I still use x/- items as much as I used x/day items. x/- items are cheaper per charge, and eventually run out. This makes them more useful for disposable magic items. If you want to go buy a wand in a shop in my games, you will probably find mostly x/- wands because artisans want you to come back for more wands, so most of their general stock has limited battery life. So you need to either buy new ones or have the merchant recharge the wands for a fee (which costs the difference between the current charges and maximum charges, as is customary for upgrading or adding abilities to items).
Meanwhile, PCs and NPCs can get a lot of milage out of partially charged wands, which are cheaper. For example, the cost of a 1st level wand is only about 15 gp per charge, so you might find adepts and low-level NPCs sporting a collection of partially charged wands. Kind of like how NPCs will often carry oils of magic weapon instead of actual magic weapons. It depends on what you can afford. NPCs on a budget will used partially charged wands, while those with more wealth might have recharging items if they use them frequently.
So we still have both options in our games. Options are good. :D
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I do like your ideas as well, Ashiel.
I went back and took a look at the APG Staffs in the online Reference Document. Sure enough, all of those staffs are figured as the price calcuation in the Craft Staff part of the Core Handbook as the market price. But the staves in the Core Handbook are designed with the price calculation being the cost to craft--which is then doubled for market price.
Is Paizo planning on fixing this disconnect? Either the APG staves are under-priced (by half) or the Core staves are over-priced (being twice as expensive as they should be), but something needs to be done to address the problem here.
One thought that I had, was to make staffs self-charging. Each day, they automatically regain one charge without needing a creature to do it. That would be one way to explain why PCs find fully charged staves in the dark places of the world and amidst ruins of century old extinct civilizations.
Anyway, it is just a thought.
Master Arminas
I once created a "staff of wishful thinking" for a 20th-level game I was in. It allowed you to cast wish for 3 charges and limited wish for 1 charge.
The fact that all the components were paid for at the staff's creation meant that I would never again have to pay for them.
The fact that I was also an arcane bloodline sorcerer with his 20th-level capstone ability also meant that I could forever cast limited wish by merely dropping 3 levels of spells (three 1st, one 3rd, etc.) or wish by dropping 9 levels of spells (nine 1st, three 3rd, one 9th, etc.).
When we started the game and the GM realized what I had done he said "staff of wishful thinking indeed!"
I once created a "staff of wishful thinking" for a 20th-level game I was in. It allowed you to cast wish for 3 charges and limited wish for 1 charge.
The fact that all the components were paid for at the staff's creation meant that I would never again have to pay for them.
The fact that I was also an arcane bloodline sorcerer with his 20th-level capstone ability also meant that I could forever cast limited wish by merely dropping 3 levels of spells (three 1st, one 3rd, etc.) or wish by dropping 9 levels of spells (nine 1st, three 3rd, one 9th, etc.).
When we started the game and the GM realized what I had done he said "staff of wishful thinking indeed!"
Wouldn't have upset me if I was GMing. A staff like that would cost a fortune. The wish effect alone would cost 114,750 gp + 1,250,000 gp in material components, divided by 1.6 for 3 charges, or 852,968.75 gp market price, plus an additional 51187.5 gp + 75,000 gp in material components, bringing the total market price of your staff to 979,156.25 gold pieces, pushing outside of your entire WBL. The only way you could have such as staff at all would be to craft it yourself, requiring about 2.6 years of work if you worked on it every day of every year.
Honestly, the staff isn't worth it. At 13rd level you could have just cast planar binding and got all the wishes you wanted. This just seems like a wasteful way to do it. It's not even like Wish or Limited wish are all that great in Pathfinder, since it was sufficiently nerfed to remove the cheese. Limited wish is generally better because its material component is a fairly inexpensive (for its level) method of hosing someone's saves before a flesh to awesome.
Wouldn't have upset me if I was GMing. A staff like that would cost a fortune. The wish effect alone would cost 114,750 gp + 1,250,000 gp in material components, divided by 1.6 for 3 charges, or 852,968.75 gp market price, plus an additional 51187.5 gp + 75,000 gp in material components, bringing the total market price of your staff to 979,156.25 gold pieces, pushing outside of your entire WBL. The only way you could have such as staff at all would be to craft it yourself, requiring about 2.6 years of work if you worked on it every day of every year.
Honestly, the staff isn't worth it. At 13rd level you could have just cast planar binding and got all the wishes you wanted. This just seems like a wasteful way to do it. It's not even like Wish or Limited wish are all that great in Pathfinder, since it was sufficiently nerfed to remove the cheese. Limited wish is generally better because its material component is a fairly inexpensive (for its level) method of hosing someone's saves before a flesh to awesome.
I came up with a price of 547,766gp, 6sp, and 7cp (cost 519,716gp, 6sp, and 7cp).
EDIT: Ah, I see. You didn't divide the wish material components by 3 for the increased charge expenditure like you're supposed to.
I once created a "staff of wishful thinking" for a 20th-level game I was in. It allowed you to cast wish for 3 charges and limited wish for 1 charge.
The fact that all the components were paid for at the staff's creation meant that I would never again have to pay for them.
The fact that I was also an arcane bloodline sorcerer with his 20th-level capstone ability also meant that I could forever cast limited wish by merely dropping 3 levels of spells (three 1st, one 3rd, etc.) or wish by dropping 9 levels of spells (nine 1st, three 3rd, one 9th, etc.).
When we started the game and the GM realized what I had done he said "staff of wishful thinking indeed!"
Wouldn't have upset me if I was GMing. A staff like that would cost a fortune. The wish effect alone would cost 114,750 gp + 1,250,000 gp in material components, divided by 1.6 for 3 charges, or 852,968.75 gp market price, plus an additional 51187.5 gp + 75,000 gp in material components, bringing the total market price of your staff to 979,156.25 gold pieces, pushing outside of your entire WBL. The only way you could have such as staff at all would be to craft it yourself, requiring about 2.6 years of work if you worked on it every day of every year.
Honestly, the staff isn't worth it. At 13rd level you could have just cast planar binding and got all the wishes you wanted. This just seems like a wasteful way to do it. It's not even like Wish or Limited wish are all that great in Pathfinder, since it was sufficiently nerfed to remove the cheese. Limited wish is generally better because its material component is a fairly inexpensive (for its level) method of hosing someone's saves before a flesh to awesome.
Well the difference is having wish on-demand. Basically he's paying all that money to have access to nearly any spell at any time, a true schrodinger wizard.
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I do like your ideas as well, Ashiel.
Yup, simple and it works.
I went back and took a look at the APG Staffs in the online Reference Document. Sure enough, all of those staffs are figured as the price calcuation in the Craft Staff part of the Core Handbook as the market price. But the staves in the Core Handbook are designed with the price calculation being the cost to craft--which is then doubled for market price.
Is Paizo planning on fixing this disconnect? Either the APG staves are under-priced (by half) or the Core staves are over-priced (being twice as expensive as they should be), but something needs to be done to address the problem here.
I am beginning to suspect the APG half price thing was done on purpose as a type of stealth errata to see if staves were salvageable in their current form.
Certainly halving the price of Core staves might help a little, but in general staves are too large a percentage of your wealth and often bloated with very low level and non-level-scalable spell choices to be worthwhile.
One thought that I had, was to make staffs self-charging. Each day, they automatically regain one charge without needing a creature to do it. That would be one way to explain why PCs find fully charged staves in the dark places of the world and amidst ruins of century old extinct civilizations.
Again that would help to increase the appeal of staves slightly.
I suspect either Ashiels idea, or back to the drawing board on Staves, rather than trying to salvage the existing ones in their current form.
Now how to make staves special?
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I've always been a fan of rune staves from Magic Item Compendium in 3.5. They had a number of spells of various levels contained in them and all of it was run off of your own slots.
Ashiel, if i wanted to craft a staff (bonded item really) that used your system, and had the spells: shrink item, telekinesis, fabricate or stone shape, with 10 charges/day, how much would it cost?
You see, i barly got past algabra 15 years ago and am horrible at math and well i like your math, i just dont see how to plug it into my needs.
If I understand her math correctly, let us take a simple +1/+1 quarterstaff with a total of 10 charges per day containing fireball at 3 charges, scorhing ray at 2 charges and burning hands at 1 charge.
The base stick will cost 4k because of the +1/+1 enchantment on it. For sticking spells onto it things get complicated. Let us assume caster level 10 for ease of math. Fireball will cost 3 (spell level) x 10 (caster level) x 750 (base price) / 3 (uses three charges to use fireball) / 5 (another base factor from my impression) = 1500 per use a day from fireball alone. Adding in scorching ray is 2x10x750/2/5*.75 = 1,125 per use a day from scorching ray. Burning hands would be 1x10x750/1/5*.5 = 750 from burning hands. A total of 3325 per use. Then multiplying by 10 for the 10 uses per gets us 33250 for the spell flinging, totaling 37250 in total for the staff. This seems to be in the right ballpark as a wand of a level 4 spell costs 21k. Though it still seems overpriced to me, I'd adjust the overall price by 2/3 or 3/4 if I want to make them attractive.
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l) method of hosing someone's saves before a flesh to awesome.
I came up with a price of 547,766gp, 6sp, and 7cp (cost 519,716gp, 6sp, and 7cp).
EDIT: Ah, I see. You didn't divide the wish material components by 3 for the increased charge expenditure like you're supposed to.
Of course I did. The cost for the wish material components for an item with x/day charges is determined as if it had 50 charges, then divided with the rest of the item. Thus the base cost of the material components for a wish spell is in excess of a million gold pieces, like I said. I broke the math down in my previous post, noting the base price and the prices after divisions for both your 3-charge cost wish, and your 1-charge cost limited wish.
I think you may have mistakenly calculated the material cost based on the number of charges per day, instead of 50 charges/x as the rules say to. It's a pretty easy mistake to make.
Ashiel, if i wanted to craft a staff (bonded item really) that used your system, and had the spells: shrink item, telekinesis, fabricate or stone shape, with 10 charges/day, how much would it cost?
You see, i barly got past algabra 15 years ago and am horrible at math and well i like your math, i just dont see how to plug it into my needs.
Here, I'll walk you through it, step by step. That way you can try on your next item.
1) First thing we need to do is figure out which spell effect is going to cost the most. Most often this is the highest level spell effect, so in your case the spell is either Telekinesis or Fabricate (both 5th level, both require CL 9th) and neither has any fancy material components that you supply ahead of time (fabricate uses the materials you are casting the spell on to create the new items).
2) We check the pricing formula. The base price for telekinesis is...
5 (spell level) * 9 (minimum caster level) * 750 (spell trigger) = 33,750 gp.
3) We now select the next most expensive spell, fabricate, and repeat the process. However, because it uses the same charges as the first spell, it benefits from the multiple similar abilities discount, so we get a 75% reduction in price. So the cost of the fabricate spell is...
5 (spell level) * 9 (minimum caster level) * 750 (spell trigger) * .75 = 25,312.5 gp.
4) We now select the next most expensive spell, shrink item. Again, it benefits from the multiple similar abilities modifier, which goes 100%, 75%, 50%~. So our cost is...
3 (spell level) * 5 (minimum caster level) * 750 (spell trigger) * .50 = 5,625 gp.
5) Now simply add them all together to determine the cost of a 5/day staff.
33,750 + 25,312.5 + 5,625 = 64,687.5 gp.
6) Now you want a staff that has more (or less) than 5 charges per day. So we need to discover how much these charges are worth. To do so, divide the total cost by 5.
64,687.5 / 5 = 12,937.5 gp per charge.
From this point, you can simply add 12,937.5 gp until you have the correct number of charges. For example...
1 Charge = 12,937.5 gp
2 Charges = 25,875 gp
3 Charges = 38,812.5 gp
4 Charges = 51,750 gp
5 Charges = 64,687.5 gp
6 Charges = 77,625 gp
7 Charges = 90,562.5 gp
8 Charges = 103,500 gp
9 Charges = 116,437.5 gp
10 Charges = 129,375 gp
Etc, etc.
So your staff would cost 129,375 gp market price, and 64,687 gp to Craft. It would possess the spells telekinesis, fabricate, and shrink item, each consuming 1 charge.
Bonus Points
Play around with the above instructions a bit. When you're comfortable, move onto this step. This is where you really get into the real beauty of staffs, and where you set spells that require multiple charges. By requiring multiple charges, you get a hefty discount on that spell effect, allowing you to stuff more spells into your staff without breaking the bank.
The most direct way to figure out how much each extra charge costs is by dividing the cost of the spell effect by the number of charges it consumes from the staff (I recommend a minimum of 1 and maximum of 5).
So let's pretend we don't want to cast fabricate often, but would like it as an option. We don't mind spending extra charges on it to reduce the cost. We decide we want it to consume a massive 5 charges per use, which is the entire amount for a standard recharging wand.
The cost would be...
5 (spell level) * 9 (minimum caster level) * 750 gp / 5 (the number of charges it takes) = 6,750 gp.
So let's rebuild your staff with this concept in mind. We'll have Fabricate take 5 charges per use, and shrink item take 3 charges per use, and telekinesis 1 charge per use.
Telekinesis Cost = 33,750 gp
Fabricate Cost (divided by 5) = 5,062.5 gp (6,750 * .75 for similar ability)
Shrink Item Cost (divided by 3) = 1,875(3,750 * .50 for similar ability)
Divide total cost by 5, multiply by 10 = 10 charges.
Patterson's Staff of Arcane Transmutation
Aura Strong transmuation, CL 9th
Market Price: 72,254 gp and 5 sp, Creation Cost: 18,063 gp 75 sp
====================================================================
This powerful arcane staff bears an arcane question mark wrapped around a mysterious letter "P". The staff resonates with power, and may be used to cast the following spells. The staff has 10 charges per day.
Telekinesis (1 charge)
Shrink Item (3 charges)
Fabricate (5 charges)
=====================================================================
Requirements Craft Staff, fabricate, shrink item, telekinesis.
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So let's rebuild your staff with this concept in mind. We'll have Fabricate take 5 charges per use, and shrink item take 3 charges per use, and telekinesis 1 charge per use.
Telekinesis Cost = 33,750 gp
Fabricate Cost (divided by 5) = 5,062.5 gp (6,750 * .75 for similar ability)
Shrink Item Cost (divided by 3) = 1,875(3,750 * .50 for similar ability)Divide total cost by 5, multiply by 10 = 10 charges.
Patterson's Staff of Arcane Transmutation
Aura Strong transmuation, CL 9th
Market Price: 72,254 gp and 5 sp, Creation Cost: 18,063 gp 75 sp
I was with you on the spell costs but not sure how you then got the staff total - I got 81375 price and 40687.5 cost. Is it just a spreadsheet glitch or am I missing something?
I was with you on the spell costs but not sure how you then got the staff total - I got 81375 price and 40687.5 cost. Is it just a spreadsheet glitch or am I missing something?So let's rebuild your staff with this concept in mind. We'll have Fabricate take 5 charges per use, and shrink item take 3 charges per use, and telekinesis 1 charge per use.
Telekinesis Cost = 33,750 gp
Fabricate Cost (divided by 5) = 5,062.5 gp (6,750 * .75 for similar ability)
Shrink Item Cost (divided by 3) = 1,875(3,750 * .50 for similar ability)Divide total cost by 5, multiply by 10 = 10 charges.
Patterson's Staff of Arcane Transmutation
Aura Strong transmuation, CL 9th
Market Price: 72,254 gp and 5 sp, Creation Cost: 18,063 gp 75 sp
It's 7 am and I haven't been to sleep. Somewhere I made a really obvious mistake. The math formula is correct, but the price I listed is way off. You are correct that the market price would be 81,375 gp. This just goes to show I shouldn't do these tutorials when I'm falling asleep. ^.^"