Over the years, I've seen several threads discussing the best spells for a sorcerer/spontaneous caster; opinions differ, naturally, and are subject to build goals, other PC's, and the campaign itself. That being said, there are some clear winners and losers when it comes to spell choices.
What I don't see too often are threads discussing bad spell selections for sorcerers. Having played a sorcerer for the first time ever, I've come to regret some of my choices, and sadly, those choices are often spells that favor wizards, mainly utility spells.
Utility spells being those neat, "magical," effects that cannot easily be replicated by the common folk; a fireball is magical, of course, but its primary goal is to kill stuff. A sword is designed for that same purpose. So really, swords and fireballs, while being different, are pretty similar too. Utilities, on the other hand, are not something easily produced by the mundane folk; divination spells, teleportation, conjuration and the like are outside the realm of common folk.
Many of these are awesome, but unsuitable to the average sorcerer, because a sorcerer needs to pick spells that he will cast over and over again, or that he will find use for in a variety of situations.
I discovered this when I picked Tenser's Floating Disk as one of my spells known. In five levels, I've used that spell twice. I eventually traded it out, but it still kind of bummed me out; it seems throwing fire and lightening around is the standard role for a sorcerer, while the wizard gets to pick up all of the fun, mystical effects, the ones that make me actually want to play a mage in the first place.
So the question is, what spells are actually unsuitable for the spontaneous casters?
I would say that any spell that doesn't scale with your class as gain in level. The spell "Sleep" has always been one that I skip past. Granted, you always have the option to swap it out later but always felt that one was a waste of known spell space -- even at early levels.
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I would say that any spell that doesn't scale with your class as gain in level. The spell "Sleep" has always been one that I skip past. Granted, you always have the option to swap it out later but always felt that one was a waste of known spell space -- even at early levels.
While I agree with you in general, sleep in particular is so useful at low levels that it is the kind of spell that swapping is made for. Take it with your initial spells, and swap it out when no longer useful. The fact that it isn't much use at level 10 doesn't change the fact that it is awesome at level 1.
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I tend to disagree about featherfall. Sure it's great to have a ring of featherfall for yourself, but when its a partymember going over the edge what are you going to do. Now, I know that givin the limitations of the sorceror spell list this isn't a first class spell for first level, but you can be certain that even at high levels of play, falling to your death is a very likely occurence. This would be one of those spells I'd take at 3rd or 4th level when I'd likely to start seeing some use out of it, but i'd probably never swap it out because in the later levels you'll be using your higher level spells to deal damage or augment defenses, so using up a spell slot of a level of spells your not using as often is a nice security blanket. At worst I'd take it as a human favored class option.
Awesome stuff. So far we have narrowed the avoid list down to:
~Situational spells, such as Water Breathing, which don't happen often enough to warrant taking.
~Spells with Hit Dice limitations (sleep, etc)
I'm kind of on the fence about Feather Fall. I've had too many characters fall to their deaths to avoid the spell, but I also believe that the spell isn't at the top of a sorcerer's priority list. I suppose it all depends on the campaign; the much desired ring is not always available for sell, and at higher levels, there are rings which are much more powerful.
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.
If there is a spell you think you will use, but not every day, get a wand/scroll of it.
Do not actually learn it unless you know you will be casting it over and over and over and every day.
I personally tend to avoid most defensive buffs, because I find if I spend the first round/(s) buffing myself I am not a target and they go to waste, and if I do get targeted I will use things that are really huge like Displacement. But I think that is more my play style than anything, not so much a general rule.....
one of the few spells that does not work on a wand is FF. it goes from being a spell you can throw anytime, even on someone elses turn, to a spell you have to have a standard action to throw - with the wand in hand to do it. so... when the party falls into a pit trap (triggered by the fighter opening a door), you could cast it or you can grab for your wand and be told - "hay, on your turn you can cast it, you'll need to draw it during your move action - if you have enough time. How deep is this pit?"Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.
If there is a spell you think you will use, but not every day, get a wand/scroll of it.
Do not actually learn it unless you know you will be casting it over and over and over and every day.I personally tend to avoid most defensive buffs, because I find if I spend the first round/(s) buffing myself I am not a target and they go to waste, and if I do get targeted I will use things that are really huge like Displacement. But I think that is more my play style than anything, not so much a general rule.....
Yup. The great advantage to Feather Fall is that it is an immediate action to cast.
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(WARNING: This post is full of opinion.)
When it comes to sorcerer spells it's easier to get sucked into the same traps Wizards get sucked into when they pick their spells for the day because your far more stuck with your choices then they are. That said Sorcerers can easily have quite the diverse selection of spells and effects, especially as they get a lot more use out of meta-magic feats being able to apply them on the fly. If you have Empower or Intensify, you don't really need to know a lot of different blaster spells to blast stuff.
If your not going to actually have an effect on the game in or out of combat, then there isn't any reason you should waste time buffing your armour class. Mage Armour, False Life and similar spells aren't very useful uses of your known spell slots. By the time they last long enough to make a difference, they won't actually make much of a difference.
A good rule of thumb is something along the lines of "if you are capable of finding a magic item that emulates that spell reasonably well then that is superior to learning it as a spell." Boots of the Winterland over Endure Elements, Broom of Flying over Overland Flight and so forth. Potions or Scrolls of the super situational spells. This includes normal gear too. You should have acid flasks, holy water, tanglefoot bags, a crossbow, maybe even a long spear. That helps a lot at lower levels and some even longer.
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I'll vouch for feather fall as well. Too many people forget its awesome casting time, and the fact that it is just as useful at saving the party from giant hurled boulders, cave-ins, and shrunken vats of alchemist fire dropped by familiars as it is at saving the party from trap doors and collapsing bridges.
One thing I've learned to avoid with sorcerers is redundancy. I've seen too many people take six different damaging fire spells when only one or two would have been needed. Take only a few damage spells, and make sure they do different types of damage, have different areas/targets, and force different saves.
Another thing to avoid are spells with a limited target range. Charm person can be pretty good in the right situation and with the right GM, but there is no point in having it once you pick up charm monster.
I've noticed some people like to pick up redundant spells so that they can make use of their lower level slots. Taking beast shape I, II, III, AND IV is a good example. Why cast beast shape IV to turn into a small critter when you can simply cast beast shape I and save the higher level slot? In the long run though, I find that saving spell slots in this fashion isn't very efficient. Sorcerers get a LOT of spell slots per day already, more so than any other class. Being able to cast beast shape I-III 24 times a day isn't going to make any difference over having beast shape IV 6 times a day, when you generally only go through an average of four encounters a day anyways...
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Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.
We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*
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Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.We have a running joke in my gaming group that when the wizards graduate from the academy they're given a Scroll of Feather Fall and told to leap from the roof of the school with it. The smart ones refuse, because it takes a standard action to read a scroll and by the time you have it unrolled *splat*
I'm so stealing this.
Spells that don't scale well with caster level are the ones to avoid unless they are so useful at low level that you don't mind swapping them out later.
Situationally useful spells, on the other hand, should be considered -- but only after you have one or two combat useful spells at a given level. Your general strategy should be to blast away with your combat spells over and over -- but if an unusual situation comes up, you can cast an appropriate spell immediately, without having to prepare it. Just be sure that the situational spell is for situations that actually do come up a fair amount.
For buff spells, stick with spells that either affect most of the party have a duration of an hour per level or so. Mage Armor is a very useful personal spell once you can spare the 1st level spell slots for it -- especially if you can get an Extend Spell rod so that you can cast it as soon as you get up in the morning and be protected all day.
You don't want to waste actions buffing during combat if you can help it -- unless of course you are buffing the party as a whole. Haste is a nice spell if you have several melee types in your party, for example.
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Summon Spells.
That depends on how far you're falling although I don't recall if that's included in the pathfinder rules besides a standard action is what 2/3 of a 6 second round? So 4 seconds at a rate of acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 is a maximum speed of 39.2m/s or 128ft/s and a travel of roughly 260 feet so at any height greater than 300 feet you should be able to read a scroll during the fall prior to reaching the ground and that ignores the decrease in acceleration due to air resistance.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
This implies no standard action unless you're falling more than 500ft.
One of the other things about feather fall..
It can be used against things. It can't stop a sword swing, and it can't stop a flying creature.. but it can still stop a jumping creature. It can also stop a falling object.
It is only V too, so you can cast it while bound. I'm certain you can figure out ways to use that spell.. possibly something that causes a warp?
That depends on how far you're falling although I don't recall if that's included in the pathfinder rules besides a standard action is what 2/3 of a 6 second round? So 4 seconds at a rate of acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 is a maximum speed of 39.2m/s or 128ft/s and a travel of roughly 260 feet so at any height greater than 300 feet you should be able to read a scroll during the fall prior to reaching the ground and that ignores the decrease in acceleration due to air resistance.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
This implies no standard action unless you're falling more than 500ft.
That seems right, but a citation would be nice. Also that lines more less up with physics.
PRD>Environment>Environmental Rules>Falling or p. 443 of CRB
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell's level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.
Well...Spells like glitterdust are still useful at higher levels with Heighten Spell.
Cause Fear would be bad later on because of the HD limitation.
And I think spells like False Life are great, but not to be taken other spells. It's the kind of spell i'd take either as a bonus human spell, or as my last level spell...or maybe as a swap
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Many of these are awesome, but unsuitable to the average sorcerer, because a sorcerer needs to pick spells that he will cast over and over again, or that he will find use for in a variety of situations.
I discovered this when I picked Tenser's Floating Disk as one of my spells known. In five levels, I've used that spell twice. I eventually traded it out, but it still kind of bummed me out; it seems throwing fire and lightening around is the standard role for a sorcerer, while the wizard gets to pick up all of the fun, mystical effects, the ones that make me actually want to play a mage in the first place.
My gnome flies his Floating Disk. -- Pantsloads of fun and avoid traps, difficult terrain, etc. ....Not so good if your a big person.
Note also that while the wizard may be memorizing lots of interesting spells, he's generally not casting all of them. As a sorc, you get to unload. But...you basically suck until 4th (and Scorching Ray).
Home-rules: I'm a fan of faster "retraining" and swap-outs than core (which is hyper-restrictive compared to, say, D&D3.5 PHB2 rules).
I'm surprised to see the summoning hate. Those spells can be very versatile. They are usable in almost any combat situation, and also provide utility, such as detonating traps, providing mounts, and even some spell support at higher levels.
If I am playing a caster there is almost always a moderate to heavy emphasis on summoning, but I played a summoning sorcerer and in my experience it just doesn't work that well. Now once you get summon monster VIII and IX by all means pick those because they will not outlast their usefulness. Sorcerers really are a class of their own since they are the only 1/2 bab arcanist to cast spontaneously.
That seems right, but a citation would be nice. Also that lines more less up with physics.That depends on how far you're falling although I don't recall if that's included in the pathfinder rules besides a standard action is what 2/3 of a 6 second round? So 4 seconds at a rate of acceleration of 9.8m/s^2 is a maximum speed of 39.2m/s or 128ft/s and a travel of roughly 260 feet so at any height greater than 300 feet you should be able to read a scroll during the fall prior to reaching the ground and that ignores the decrease in acceleration due to air resistance.
A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall.
This implies no standard action unless you're falling more than 500ft.The rules win this time but I disagree about it lining up given that the value based on ideal falling physics(on earth) would place the distance at nearly half the value the rules give assuming the spell is a standard action.
Anywho it is what it is but the spell is still of questionable value given the lack of spell access that sorcerers have. Not to say you couldn't use it but I usually try to avoid situation which involve me falling to my death rather than using my spells to allow me to fall without dying.
g is ~32 ft./sec^2. 1/2 * 32 * 6^2 ~ 500
I find any type of summon spell to be excessively limiting. Not that you can't do that theme, but it makes the character a one trick pony.
But aren't sorcerers, by design, one trick ponies? Their whole purpose is spamming the same few spells they get over and over.
That being said, I disagree about summoning. I don't think sorcerers should pick up *every* summoning spell, but they should try and have the highest level one they can cast; summons offers variety and utility to the poor sorcerer, and depending on the level of summons, can even provide additional spells.
Feather Fall = Just get a Wand.
If there is a spell you think you will use, but not every day, get a wand/scroll of it.
Do not actually learn it unless you know you will be casting it over and over and over and every day.I personally tend to avoid most defensive buffs, because I find if I spend the first round/(s) buffing myself I am not a target and they go to waste, and if I do get targeted I will use things that are really huge like Displacement. But I think that is more my play style than anything, not so much a general rule.....
Whoops, forgot about that one, very bad example.
:P
The worst spells are obvious, and have already been mentioned--extremely niche stuff that will only help in extremely specific circumstances--stuff like the Sepia Snake Sigil.
Any spell you cast at least once a day is not the worst.
That said, there is a significant difference in the ideal spell selection for a game where wands and scrolls of almost any spell are readily available for purchase, and the kind of game where there are no magic item shops and wizards don't sell this stuff with any regularity.
For example, Mage Armor is a great spell to get in a wand. But if you can't get it in a wand, it's a pretty damn nice spell to have until you can get +5 Bracers of Armor.
The Shadow Conjuration and Evocation spells are generally considered pretty weak choices, but imagine if you couldn't just get a scroll for the obscure Conjuration and Evocation spells you would never learn but might need once or twice?
Then there's the fact that Sorcerer's can switch out the spells they take, so then you have to consider what level you're at when you know a particular spell.
Color Spray and a Scythe is basically the be all, end all at 1st level. Hell, it probably stays that way at least until level 3. Maybe even 4th. But if you still have Color Spray at 10th level, you're wasting a slot.
Fly is a great spell at level 6. But if you still have Fly at level 14 instead of Phantom Steed (or Overland Flight if you're Arcane Bloodline), I would have to question that decision.
At 8th level, when you only know a single fourth level spell, I'd question any decision that was neither Black Tentacles nor Dimension Door.
So, beyond the easy question of what is actually the worst, I think the issue is too context sensitive to really discuss more subtle trap options or other sub-optimal spells.
I figure that any spell which doesn't fit your character concept and is only taken for utility purposes would be the "worst".
Seriously, I feel that sorcerers are one of the classes that should be taken only if you're into RPing and basing your character off a concept. I remember reading about a very cool 3rd edition sorcerer that a kid basically patterned after Spider-Man. Apparently the Sorc was BEYOND effective because the kid read a crap-ton of Spidey comics and used them for inspiration.
If you're worry too much about spell choice, just play a wizard and be done with it.
I figure that any spell which doesn't fit your character concept and is only taken for utility purposes would be the "worst".
Seriously, I feel that sorcerers are one of the classes that should be taken only if you're into RPing and basing your character off a concept. I remember reading about a very cool 3rd edition sorcerer that a kid basically patterned after Spider-Man. Apparently the Sorc was BEYOND effective because the kid read a crap-ton of Spidey comics and used them for inspiration.
If you're worry too much about spell choice, just play a wizard and be done with it.
I wanna see that build lol
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If you're worry too much about spell choice, just play a wizard and be done with it.
It's the difference between Tactics and Strategy, though.
A Wizard does not need to make any long term decisions about his spells except specialization. They can cast any spell, so if they start a spell level with lousy spells, they can change it up later. The challenge in making a Wizard is in figuring out what spells are best right friggin' now. They are tacticians
The Sorcerer, on the other hand, needs to make no tactical decisions about spell load out. They make no choices about what they might need during the upcoming day. Instead, they make choices about what spells they might need at all. Building a Sorcerer is an act of pure strategy because other than basic "which spell do I cast this turn?" stuff, their challenging decisions are all long term, character changing choices.
I think the Sorcerer is more fun, to be honest, because they can't really make up for bad decisions--it's like hardcore mode or an MMO with no respec option. Their choices are therefore each more meaningful, though, admittedly, they make far fewer choices than a Wizard that can change their load out every day.
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What the guy above me said, with the addendum that in reward for choosing the right spells, they are rewarded with the ability to spam them.
The Shadow Conjuration and Evocation spells are generally considered pretty weak choices, but imagine if you couldn't just get a scroll for the obscure Conjuration and Evocation spells you would never learn but might need once or twice?
I think shadow conjuration/evocation are some of the strongest spells a sorcerer can get. As more and more supplements come out, wizards gain in versatility and power while sorcerers lag behind; being restricted to 6 spells of each level is bad enough with just the core rules, but once more and more options become available, sorcery feels more painful (IMO anyway).
The shadow conjuration/evocation spells open *a lot* of new spells for the sorcerer. Yes, the shadow versions require two saves in most cases, but it's still better than nothing. Not to mention that with shadow conjuration/evocation, you can access some of the neat utility spells that you might not want to learn, yet might prove useful at some point.
I wouldn't word it that extreme since they do get a fair number of spells. The correct term would be one theme ponies., the bloodlines basically being the backbone of one's theme.I find any type of summon spell to be excessively limiting. Not that you can't do that theme, but it makes the character a one trick pony.
But aren't sorcerers, by design, one trick ponies? Their whole purpose is spamming the same few spells they get over and over.
I guess that's a fairer assessment then I allowed. Good point.
I'd guess that spells with expensive components aren't the best choices for sorcerers. Off the top of my head, Permanency would be great, if not for the component. The Symbol line also suffers for the same reason.
That's a good point. Adding expensive material components to the list. Whic is a shame, because Stoneskin is a nice spell to know.
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That's a good point. Adding expensive material components to the list. Whic is a shame, because Stoneskin is a nice spell to know.I'd guess that spells with expensive components aren't the best choices for sorcerers. Off the top of my head, Permanency would be great, if not for the component. The Symbol line also suffers for the same reason.
I don't think Stoneskin is too bad; that's only 250 gp. The worst are like Permanency and Symbol mentioned above, which can cost into the thousands.
I like Sorcerer as the Arcane part of Eldritch Knight.
In that case, there are spells that are useful to take that are useless for a conventional sorcerer:
False Life is a bad choice for most sorcerers (unless you're doing something thematic), but it's awesome for an Eldritch Knight build.
True Strike doesn't require Still Spell. For a Still Spell focused Eldritch Knight, being able to use True Strike means your first level slots never really go to waste...
I've done one level dips into Sorcerer for my full BAB characters, getting True Strike, Feather Fall and the ability to use a wand of Shield and a wand of Expeditious Retreat.
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What's with all the false life hate? It's an awesome spell!
IT. KEEPS. YOU. ALIVE.
When the temporary hit points run out, you simply cast it again. When used in this fashion against multiple back to back encounters, it can easily double the number of available hit points you have in a day.
Has saved my life multiple times.