Is a dispel check the same as a caster level check?

[Ambrus]

Since they seem to use the same mechanic, is there any difference?

[Ravingdork]

Not really. A dispel check IS a caster level check, but certain abilities may add bonuses to dispel checks and not caster level checks.

Kind of like how all jeeps are vehicles, but not all vehicles are jeeps.

[Ambrus]

But if something adds to caster level checks, would they then automatically apply to dispel checks?

[LazarX]

Ambrus wrote:

But if something adds to caster level checks, would they then automatically apply to dispel checks?

Not necessarily. Most things that add to caster level checks do so for particular purposes only, not as a universal adder.

[Ravingdork]

But if it was a universal adder (such as an orange prism ioun stone) then yes, it would apply to dispel checks as well.

[The Steel Refrain]

Appreciating that this is a *major* feat of thread necromancy (but being reluctant to start a new thread without the benefit of the prior wisdom above), I'm interested to know whether something that adds a direct boost to caster level checks generally would boost a dispel check.

To be specific, I'm thinking something along the lines of the Grand Destiny spell:

Grand Destiny:

You inspire the target with the power to seize a grand destiny. The target gains a +4 competence bonus that it can choose to apply before rolling any attack roll, caster level check, saving throw, or skill check. The spell ends once the bonus has been applied to two rolls. At 12th level and 15th level, the bonus can be applied an additional time before the spell is discharged. A subject can be under the effect of only one grand destiny spell at a time.

While dispel checks and caster level checks are effectively identical in function, they do seem to be treated differently in some ways (for example, for the purposes of something like the Dispel Focus feat, which boosts dispel checks, but not caster level checks for spell resistance, etc).

Dispel Focus:

Whenever you attempt a dispel check based on your caster level, you gain a +2 bonus on the check.

My feeling is that dispel checks and checks against spell resistance are arguably subsets of caster level checks, so if something like Grand Destiny boosts caster level checks generally (without specifying whether it might be for dispelling or spell resistance, or some other purpose), it should benefit either or both of these subsets.

Thoughts?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I think dispel checks and spell resistance checks are absolutely subsets of caster level checks. Any caster level booster applies to them. The specific, limited options like Dispel Focus are exactly that. They don't create a separate category from caster level checks.

[The Steel Refrain]

Thanks Plausible. Based on your other posts on the forums, your opinions are always well-considered, so definitely I appreciate your feedback.

[Claxon]

Well just remember that dispel checks are done as (1d20 + caster level).

If something adds to your generic caster level it adds to your dispel check inadvertently.

To point out something that wouldn't, look at Spell Penetration. It specifies it adds to your caster level to overcome spell resistance, so not your generic caster level.

If something just says caster level without any other qualifiers, then it's your generic caster level.

[The Steel Refrain]

Thanks Claxon.

So what about the Grand Destiny spell referenced above? It allows the recipient to add a bonus to be applied before rolling a "caster level check", as opposed to giving a bonus to generic "caster level" (as for something like an orange prism ioun stone).

Can that bonus from Grand Destiny be applied to a dispel check, in your view?

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I think caster level check means "a check that adds caster level." It would be consistent with what an attribute check is. For example, a Dexterity check is also an initiative check.

[Alderic]

(An Initiative check is a Dexterity check :p)

A dispel check is a caster level check, Dispel Magic specifically uses both terms to refer to the same check.
Under Magic, any bonus to your caster level, is also used for dispel checks (and to set the DC to dispel your spell).

To beat spell resistance you roll a caster level check.

So to answer your original question, a dispel check is a caster level check, and the spell Grand Destiny should give you a +4 bonus.

[The Steel Refrain]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

I think caster level check means "a check that adds caster level." It would be consistent with what an attribute check is. For example, a Dexterity check is also an initiative check.

That matches my thinking, which would mean that the bonus from something like Grand Destiny should apply to a dispel check.

I guess my only concern is that the phrases "caster level check" and "dispel check" both appear often enough on their own that a person might reasonably argue that they are different things (sort of as if they were 'defined terms' in legal parlance) and that a bonus like Grand Destiny doesn't apply to dispel checks because: (a) it doesn't specifically *say* dispel checks; and (b) it isn't a flat boost to generic "caster level", so you don't get the bonus indirectly in the manner Claxon mentioned.

[Narquelion]

It isn't 100% clear, but I think there is no reason not to consider dispel checks a subset of caster level checks, as the rules seem to imply. Ergo Grand Destiny should work.

[The Steel Refrain]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I am convinced that this should work, and Alderic makes the good point that Dispel Magic does appear to use the terms somewhat interchangeably.

Dispel Magic:

You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can't be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of two ways: a targeted dispel or a counterspell.

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.

For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected.

You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by summon monster), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item's caster level (DC = 11 + the item's caster level). If you succeed, all the item's magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers its magical properties. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional opening (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item's physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell.

[Alderic]

I'm bad with quotes... wanted to do exactly what you did, but totally failed