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Greetings,
I'm new with Pathfinder (and the Pathfinder Society), but am very familiar with 3.5. I played in Living Greyhawk for several years, and managed to avoid character death and getting put into the Ket stocks. And I'm finding myself needing some advice on how to build my first PFS character.
I've read through the Core Rulebook and several posts here, so I've got a good handle of the basics (I hope).
With that in mind, I've been working on a Human Cleric of Sarenrae. Doing some digging around, I came across the Dervish Dance feat, and assuming it's legal in PFS (as far as I can tell it is), I was hoping to build my character around it (with the Scimitar being Sarenrae's favored weapon and all).
Only trouble is, I'm not sure how to build around it. Obviously, I'd be focusing on Dex, and trying to keep my Wis decent for spellcasting, but other than that, I'm stumped.
Anyone have any thoughts? If you need more information, let me know.
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Min-max OK? If not, comp as needed, for instance if you are unwilling to play an int 7
Human Cleric of Saernrae
Str: 7
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Dex: 19
Con: 14
Chr: 14
Domains: I like Glory and Liberation personally; the glory domain makes for excellent synergy with the very powerful diplomacy skill). And the 8th level buff is stupidly powerful. Liberation is very handy and has a solid spell set.
Feats: 1) Weapon Finesse, Pirannah Strike
3) Dervish Dance
5) WF: scimitar
Comments: you will be "support" for the first 2 levels, as until you get the first 1100 GP you probably won't bother with armor (need mithril chain shirt to avoid encumbrance at 7 strength). You'll be able to "attack to aid another", provide flank, and give solid healing.
Once you hit 3, you can go full on. Do 1 buff / combat (ideally one that helps all, like bless, though you should have cat's grace early). After Piranah strike @ 4th level you'll be +6 to hit for d6+7, while maintaining a good AC and plenty of buffs. Respectable by any standards, and with buffs only get better.
Alternatively you can use same build, drop Liberation, and be an Evangalist; bard song works really nicely this build, especially in conjunction with the Glory domain. @ 8 in 1 round you can bard song / glory / "haste" and make yourself and your team feel like gods for a little while :).
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At 7 strength you can have a mithril chain shirt and a scimitar and not leave light encumbrance. Not much else mind you; but you are guaranteed access to mithril chain shirts by 2nd level, and really shouldn't step to the front line before 3rd anyway. If you are lucky and "play up" you can get 1100 GP in your 1st mod (stay in back, heal and bless).
Regardless of strength in the long run you'll wear that mithril chain shirt, so to put it any higher would hamper the character.
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[snip]
Once you hit 3, you can go full on. Do 1 buff / combat (ideally one that helps all, like bless, though you should have cat's grace early). After Piranah strike @ 4th level you'll be +6 to hit for d6+7, while maintaining a good AC and plenty of buffs. Respectable by any standards, and with buffs only get better.
I'm not sure if Pirranah Strike works with the Scimitar - I believe it was only for light weapons, and Dervish Dance doesn't make the Scimitar light, it just lets you use Dex for attack and damage rolls.
Power Attack will work, but I'll need a Str 13.
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Ah, I remember that ruling; you are actually correct, it's a "non-bo".
Well, +9 to hit for d6+5 is fine anyway; so skip Pirannah strike and go with Weapon Focus: Scimitar and Weapon Finesse @ 1. Though you may be working too hard to be a Dex build, considering a strength build can take better advantage of Divine Favor / Righteous Might, can swing the scimitar 2 handed, and with Heavy Armor Proficiency has full plate. This guy
Str: 18
Int: 7
Wis: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 12
1st feats: Power attack, Heavy armor proficiency
@1 swings for d6+8 @ +3 to hit (and can have a heavy shield on his back if he wants to get AC up). @2 he'll have full plate and 20 AC, better than the 18 with a 19 Dex and the chain shirt... and can pull out a shield and still be swinging for just as much damage as the dex build, but with a 22 AC.
So you really are giving up a lot to make the "dex build" here; especially with no skill synergies for having that high Dex.
A cleric who dumps int? what is he on the Kansas school board?
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Whatever you do, don't dump the int down to 7. Clerics get so few skill ranks to begin with, you need all you can get. And in Pathfinder Society especially, there are plenty of faction missions that require skills to accomplish. My cleric of Sarenrae has 12 int.
One option to consider is the Crusader archetype. I think it's in Ultimate Combat.
I actually kinda gave up on optimizing my cleric for weapon combat. She's got the typical cleric healing and spells, and with 12 int, she'll have enough skills to be handy out of combat. She has a crossbow and scimitar for when she's not casting, but I know she'll never be great with them, and I accept that. I'm definitely planning for her to use the crossbow a lot more than the scimitar. She's also got Fire domain for a couple of blasting spells, just for something different as a cleric. And I went with the Heroism subdomain of the Glory domain as my other domain - look it up in the Advanced Players Guide.
There are ways to optimize a cleric for melee. But unless you take a level of bard for the Dawnflower Dervish archetype, it'll be tough to do as a scimitar weilding cleric of Sarenrae. Most of the best melee clerics worship gods that give more warlike domains, like Strength, War, and Destruction. And even then, you'll never be as good on the front lines as a good barbarian or fighter.
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Everyone and thier brother has advice on Stats. For a class which depends on multiple ability scores, I usually buy 4 14.
Here is what i did with my Cleric of Sarenrae.
14,14,16,12,12,11
Str: 11
Dex:12
Con: 12
Intelegence: 14
Wisdom: 16
Charisma 14
I wanted my cleric to be more scholar then a martial cleric.
If you want a little more combat oriented perhaps this will be a better spread for you.
STR 14 DEX 14 CON 12 WIS 14 INt 10 CHA 14. This would be my suggestion. You have some modest boosts to STR DEX, and you still have a couple of good stores in wis and cha.
I hope this is helpful
Good luck
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STR 14 DEX 14 CON 12 WIS 14 INt 10 CHA 14.
from what i can tell you bought 4 14s and put your +2 on a 10, this is bad, for the same point buy you could buy 3 14s a 12 and a 13, you can now have 14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10 or 15, 14, 14, 14, 12, 10
for half-elves half-orcs and humans always put that +2 in what will be your highest stat to get the most out of your point buy, other wise you are just weakening you character
EDIT:
With that in mind, I've been working on a Human Cleric of Sarenrae. Doing some digging around, I came across the Dervish Dance feat, and assuming it's legal in PFS (as far as I can tell it is), I was hoping to build my character around it (with the Scimitar being Sarenrae's favored weapon and all).
yes Dervish Dance is legal for PFS use, but you need to have the book it is from with you or the page from the PDF of the book printed out with the water mark on it to prove that you own the PDF
I think dumping int is a prerq for being religious :).
lol
This made my day! Thanks Thalin|
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yes Dervish Dance is legal for PFS use, but you need to have the book it is from with you or the page from the PDF of the book printed out with the water mark on it to prove that you own the PDF
I meant to ask about that; thanks for mentioning it.
What about feats that are available on the SRD - would I need the book for that?
For instance, I found an SRD here at Paizo that gives some stuff from the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, and (I think) Ultimate Mage. Would I still need documentation for those, or can those options be waived?
I meant to ask about that; thanks for mentioning it.What about feats that are available on the SRD - would I need the book for that?
For instance, I found an SRD here at Paizo that gives some stuff from the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, and (I think) Ultimate Mage. Would I still need documentation for those, or can those options be waived?
If it's not part of the Core Assumptions stated in the PFS Guide to OP, then yes you need to have the PDF, print out of the relevant PDF pages, or physical book to use the material. This would be the case for anything that falls under the "Additional Resources" tab on the PFS page.
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yes Dervish Dance is legal for PFS use, but you need to have the book it is from with you or the page from the PDF of the book printed out with the water mark on it to prove that you own the PDFI meant to ask about that; thanks for mentioning it.
What about feats that are available on the SRD - would I need the book for that?
For instance, I found an SRD here at Paizo that gives some stuff from the Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat, and (I think) Ultimate Mage. Would I still need documentation for those, or can those options be waived?
You should download the pdf for the Guide to Organized Play, which is free. It goes over this stuff.
But the short answer is that anything in the "core assumption" is free to use. That's the Core Rulebook, Guide to Organized Play, and Pathfinder Society Field Guide. If you want to use anything that's not in those 3 books, then you technically have to bring a purchased copy of the book (or at least the page) you're using with you to your gaming session, proving that you own it. There's an online page listing all the other books that you can get stuff from, and which parts of those books are or aren't allowed in Society play.
In my local group, this isn't enforced at all, but I don't know if I'd risk showing up to a convention with a character that could be thrown out because of this by a strict GM.
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If you start with a Str 7 you are going to be in a world of hurt. As encumbrance is enforced.
Base line for a combat focused cleric. Change Str With Dex if you want to make a Dex base. Something I strongly recommend you not do.
(Before race modifications)
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 10
Over all if you have the APG Oracle: Mystery: Battle. Dose a this type of build much better IMO. And only need to focus on Str, Con, Cha and has 4 skill points per level. So they can fill in meny roles. Combat, Divine Caster, and Social Skill's.
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Over all if you have the APG Oracle: Mystery: Battle. Dose a this type of build much better IMO. And only need to focus on Str, Con, Cha and has 4 skill points per level. So they can fill in meny roles. Combat, Divine Caster, and Social Skill's.
Thanks for that little bit of info. I really like the Oracle - reminds me of the Favored Soul of 3.5. I think I'll go this route instead.
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Brain Cleric
Human: STR:07, DEX+16, CON:12, INT:14, WIS:15, CHA:14
Traits: Birthmark, Poverty-Stricken
01 bard1 [Dawnflower Dervish:InnerSeaMagic][Dervish Dance], Improved Initiative, Extra Traits: Reactionary, Maestro of the Society
02 cler1 [Crusader][Sarenrae:Glory(Heroism)][Weapon Focus:scimitar], 1st
03 cler2 Dodge
04 cler3 2nd ..etc
Equipment at 3rd: mithral breastplate, mithral buckler, Haversack, MW scimitar, MW light crossbow, wands of Cure Light Wounds, Grease
INIT+8 (w/o Cat's Grace)
AC23 at 4th w/Cat's Grace: +11 scimitar while "Battle Dancing", +10 crossbow; damage: scimitar d6+7, crossbow d8+2
Armor-check penalty: -1 (could be zero if Reactionary trade for Armor Expert)
arcane spell failure chance: zero (if spell on Bard list).
19 skills at 3rd (assuming favored > HP)
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I think dumping int is a prerq for being religious :).
OMG. I've never wanted to play a stereotype so bad now. Thanks.
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Would this not require a pretty extraordinary amount of wealth for a 3rd level character?You can swing it in PFS by half-way through 3rd so long as you scrimp.
Mike, interesting build. What would you recommend for skills at 1st level?
You have 9 points; I'd take: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Kn:Local, Perception, Perform:Dance, Sense Motive, and Survival.
...in retrospect I'd drop Reactionary for Armor Expert (to drop the check-penalty to zero in Mithral Breastplate; it's the sort of thing you never care about until it's crucial to saving your life. Lack of Swim and Climb as class when we're weak is annoying.
If you're willing to live without 6th-level spells at retirement and delay progression a bit more (compensation: crap-ton of first-level casting and ability to deploy cheap Prestige-bought arcane wands on bard list without needing Use Magic Device), a single level of cavalier gives you Swim/Climb as class (heavy-armor clerics die like mice in PfS when they fail DC5s of those skills when they need 'em now and their check-penalty adjusted total is -4 in full-plate), a free horse (won't advance and you can't take it many places, but it carries crap and will save a few nuisance travel fees), 4 skills, and possibly some more useful class skills from the Order. If I were to do this as a STR-dumper cleric using the build in the previous post, after Cler3 is squared away at 4th for Cat's Grace (which this build will cast repeatedly), I'd dip Cavalier[Gendarme] and take Mobility in the 5th-level general feat slot and Spring Attack as the Gendarme-granted feat (Spring Attack is the only thing it grants of any use to a don't-ride DEX-build). Note: If you take Order of the Dragon, it grants Survival as a class skill (meaning you don't need the trait Poverty-Stricken to obtain it.)
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Equipment at 3rd: mithral breastplate, mithral buckler, Haversack, MW scimitar, MW light crossbow, wands of Cure Light Wounds, Grease
Hmm, does a buckler work with Dervish Dance? The feat says it doesn't work when you have a shield in your off-hand. Now, I know that a buckler is worn on your forearm, and not in your off-hand. But it still seems kind of ambiguous.
With something like PFS, will it be an issue? I know that in Living Greyhawk, I avoided depending on things that were rules-ambiguous, 'cause it then depended on the ruling of the GM.
EDIT: It's funny, 'cause right now, I'm tending to lean more towards the Dawnflower Dervish Bard straight through rather than going into Cleric (instead if I need a healer, I'll just use the idea of the Archer Cleric I have made).
Also, I noticed that the Dawnflower Dervish was in Inner Sea Magic, but the Dervish Dance feat is listed as being in Inner Sea World Guide. Is the feat also in Inner Sea Magic, or would I have to buy both books to use the class in PFS?
Would this not require a pretty extraordinary amount of wealth for a 3rd level character?You can swing it in PFS by half-way through 3rd so long as you scrimp.
Seriously? I had no idea PFS was so generous compared to the wealth standards implied by the modules, the APs, and most particularly, by the Character Wealth by Level Table in the CRB. Your gear list totals 9355 gp by my count, over three times the amount listed for 3rd level characters (more in line with a 5th level character).
And there's still the matter of encumbrance. Your listed gear comes to 30.5 pounds and a STR 7 character hits medium encumbrance at just 24. Even carrying both weapons (4 lbs. each) in the Haversack only helps you out until you're in combat and pull one out, and then you've used a move to retrieve one of them and immediately incur penalties to movement and to skill checks (not that the skill check penalties are likely to be that big a deal in most combat situations unless you're flying, or in the water, or riding).
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Note: if you play only Tier 1-2 with the character through all of 1st and 2nd level, then you won't swing it. Usually you'll play "up" to Tier 3-4 once or twice at 2nd as part of a larger table of higher-level characters. Figure four 500gp payouts and two 1300gp payouts by 3rd; this gets you the mithral breastplate. Two more Tier 3-4 payouts or one subtier 5-6 payout (played at 3rd) gets you all the rest. The wands are obtained for free by spending prestige points (2 for each). The haversack is least important in priority.
Note that you don't need the mithral breastplate until 4th (when you begin casting Cat's Grace), so getting the bucker first is advisable.
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I just wanted to thank everyone for their advice. I ended up re-making my Cleric as an Archer instead (since I haven't ever really played an Archer character at all, and it'd be interesting even if it's been done a lot), and I took Mike Schneider's advice for my secondary character.
If anyone still has further advice, I'll take it.
Kyra Banks
Faction: Andoran
Human: STR:10, DEX:16, CON:12, INT:14, WIS:14, CHA:13
Traits: Hunter's Eye (Proficiency: Longbow), Ease of Faith
Skills at 1st level: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), Perception, Profession (Model), Sense Motive
Cleric 1 [Domains: Healing, Glory(Heroism)] Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Cleric 2
Cleric 3 Rapid Shot
Cleric 4 Cha. +1
Cleric 5 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Cleric 6
Cleric 7 Deadly Aim
Cleric 8 Dex. +1
Cleric 9 Manyshot
Cleric 10
Cleric 11 Improved Critical (Longbow)
Cleric 12 Dex. +1
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(Prince) Abdul Bin Falafel
Faction: Silver Crusade
Human: STR:13, DEX:16, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:10, CHA:14
Traits: Poverty-Stricken, River Rat
Skills at 1st level: Acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Local), Perception, Perform (Sing), Survival, Swim
Bard 1 [Dawnflower Dervish: Inner Sea Magic], Arcane Strike, Extra Performance
Bard 2
Bard 3 Dodge
Bard 4 Dex. +1
Bard 5 Mobility
Bard 6
Bard 7 Spring Attack
Bard 8 Dex. +1
Bard 9 Power Attack
Bard 10
Bard 11 Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Bard 12 Str. +1
EDIT: I should probably mention I plan on using Versatile Performance at 2nd level on Perform (Comedy) to cover Bluff and Sense Motive.
Note that you don't need the mithral breastplate until 4th (when you begin casting Cat's Grace), so getting the bucker first is advisable.
Which part of your build grants the ability to cast "Cat's Grace?" It's a second level spell for bards, right? And cleric's don't have access to it at all. I'm missing something, I think.
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What you're missing is me screwing up (the last cleric I played had Cat's Grace on his list for some reason or another I now forget).
*sigh* <shrug>
(And one's foolhardy and inept colleagues will be whining for one to blow one's spells healing them anyway, so it was probably a pipe-dream to get around needing to pony cash for a belt of dexterity.)
Human: STR:10, DEX:16, CON:12, INT:14, WIS:14, CHA:13
Traits: Hunter's Eye (Proficiency: Longbow), Ease of FaithSkills at 1st level: Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Religion), Perception, Profession (Model), Sense Motive
Cleric 1 [Domains: Healing, Glory(Heroism)] Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Cleric 2
Cleric 3 Rapid Shot
Cleric 4 Cha. +1
Cleric 5 Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Cleric 6
Cleric 7 Deadly Aim
Cleric 8 Dex. +1
Cleric 9 Manyshot
Cleric 10
Cleric 11 Improved Critical (Longbow)
Cleric 12 Dex. +1
With a STR of 10, you're not doing much damage with a bow. In fact, you're tepid at best as a cleric-archer with 100% of feats and half of your traits devoted to exactly one weapon.
Your spells keep you from being purely one-trick-pony; but I still think you'll get bored fast.
IMO you'd have more fun if you were ranger at 1st level (then 11 cleric), getting all martial weapons, and have Climb, Perception, Swim and Survival as class. Scrap the healing domain for [Crusader] archetype, and pick up three feats. Go with STR:12, DEX:17, CON:12, INT:12, WIS:14, CHA:12; raise DEX once and WIS twice. Take Quick Draw at 1st level, and have a silver morningstar a back-up melee weapon.
(Prince) Abdul Bin FalafelYou won't be "blooded" royalty in PFS at 1st level. In fact, you won't be at retirement. (AFAIK, no mod has yet to feature that as a boon.)
Faction: Silver Crusade
Human: STR:13, DEX:16, CON:14, INT:12, WIS:10, CHA:14
Traits: Poverty-Stricken, River RatSkills at 1st level: Acrobatics, Climb, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Local), Perception, Perform (Sing), Survival, Swim
Bard 1 [Dawnflower Dervish: Inner Sea Magic], Arcane Strike, Extra Performance
Bard 2
Bard 3 Dodge
Bard 4 Dex. +1
Bard 5 Mobility
Bard 6
Bard 7 Spring Attack
Bard 8 Dex. +1
Bard 9 Power Attack
Bard 10
Bard 11 Improved Critical (Scimitar)
Bard 12 Str. +1
"Odd" stats are the "sweet spots" in Pathfinder point-buy in terms of expense efficiency in stats higher than 12.
Extra Performance unnecessary in a straight-class bard.
STR is unnecessarily high here for a dervish dancer since it's going to be completely unused for anything other than encumbrance or secondary melee weapons (and you're taking Power Attack late in the build).
As a charismatic melee DEX-fighter, you'd get a lot more mileage being a halfling here. Halfling also helps because this is one of the few types of concepts in which wisdom becomes a viable dump stat (since halflings receive a racial bonus to saves and Perception, and bards bump will saves).
Hmm... Halfling, STR-10, DEX+17, CON:14, INT:14, WIS:07, CHA+16
-- He's Att+1/AC+1/Dmg+0/DCs+1 out of the gate versus the human when using scimitars, and att & AC become +2 relative at 4th. Expeditious Retreat takes care of movement concerns.
ImpCrit at 11th is pointless as you'd be buying a +1/Keen weapon at 5th.
Take Rapid Reload at 5th (Allegro gives you personal Haste with a nice crossbow for ranged utility at the same time your Battle Dance bonus becomes +4).