Honestly, my Zen Archer monk just dipped 2 levels into Sorcerer, got a trait for a +1 caster level, and Mage Armored himself. Got some other nifty benefits too (like the ability to heal good people 1d4 hp per day at range!). I loved it, had a great time with him. Looking forward to playing him again some day.
Which bloodline is the best for a dip as such?
But I would take Shield rather than Mage Armour as a Spell known because its still useful at higher levels.
I've already pointed out that those were pre-racial bonus stats, and I've statted up a monk through 4th level with almost those exact stats with an AC of 22~26. Not sure how much else you would want.
You're telling me that STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07=15 point buy?
5+5+2+0+13-4=21 point buy. If the level 4 wis was boosted to 17 it would still be an 18 point buy. However you're right if you invest the majority of your money and your stats into defense you can get 22 armor.You are correct I was off on the math for this one.
However I disagree that 2 feats is such a huge investment, especially considering you have 5 feats (1 of which is stunning fist). Now granted the ring and bracers together do require half of your monk (3,000gp total) but that's still not any worse than the fighter is likely to have spent on his AC.
STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, Cha 8 is a 20-point buy (and I wouldn't play a monk on less than 20-points). Pre-racial modifiers, and you could even get STR 15, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, and CHA 7 if you are willing to take a bigger hit to Charisma.
4th level attribute gain in STR, with a Dwarf for +2 CON and +2 WIS (with a CHA of 5!) is a pretty kick-butt monk having: STR 16, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 16, CHA 5 at 4th level. By that level, you should have a Ring of Protection +1 and Bracers of Armor +2, and will probably have the dodge feat. AC of 20 (24 with a ki point) with 35 hit points. Attacks are +7 (w/ weapon focus, unarmed strike) for 1d8+3 or flurry at +6/+6 for 1d8+3. Saves (even without a cloak of resistance) are +7/+6/+7. If he has power attack, that either +6 or +5/+5 for 1d8+5 per hit.
And don't forget, your dwarf monk is now moving 30' per round, so he doesn't take a penalty on jump checks anymore. His unarmed strikes count overcome damage reduction as magic weapons.
He ain't too bad for 4th level.
MA
That is one of the dumbest things I have seen in the book. Monks can't get them at first level, but even Geisha can.Monks need to spend a feat for that. Remember that monks aren't prof. with all monk weapons, the unarmed fighters are.
Throw on one of the new blocking monk weapons, the 9 section whip is my favorite, for an additional +1 while fighting defensively.Monks are not fighters -- why should they be proficient in everything?
"Monk" just means the weapon could be flurried with [i]if[//i] you were proficient.
-- A fighter isn't proficient in every weapon either; there's lots of exotic junk he could conceivably pick up in his Weapon Training groups which he is not proficient with.
Yes, but those random weapons aren't iconic to fighters. They are conceptually pretty standard for monks. And with the exception of 1 or 2 of them, most are power downgrades from fists anyway. Forcing monks to take EWP (which they can't take until level 3) for what is more or less a sidestep in power, and often a downgrade, to get something that is iconic is dumb. Meanwhile, they give these weapons to a fighter who is designed to fight unarmed and 1 to a bard varient for free.
It's a can that says very simply "if you can do it what stops me from doing it?"
Perhaps I can be enlightened as to what another class can accomplish with a similar investment with UMD that is at all comparable to the benefit the monk receives?
Things like wands of shield last only a minute, and are therefore less useful. Wands of 2nd level (and better) spells are significantly more expensive (IE, more than the cost of armor on the low end for other classes).
Its just my opinion that when monks, for the cost of decent armor for anyone else, can acquire comparable armor via UMD, they should be allowed to include that for comparisons sake. Especially when that particular method of increasing AC is not comparably good for everyone else; they spend their money on normal armor.
Well there's two problems with this argument.
1. Most monks dump charisma, so you're not exactly going to be umd'ing wands straight out of the gate are ya? Particularly without also blowing a trait to make it a class skill. So in essence for the "wand that costs as much as armor" you are either blowing a trait, several skill points, and possibly a feat on it or you're convincing a wizard to do it for you.
2. Relying on another class to shore up your classes weaknesses doesn't make you a good class. That means the other class is particularly good at working with yours. An order of the dragon cavalier is an absolutely amazing flanking partner for a rogue but you don't hear people using them in arguments that rogues are anything but subpar. Any class with proper support is amazing that's the beauty of actually using teamwork. But again that's not a baseline to use when you talk about classes.
The only monks that are truly bad are also spherical cows, so as long as you don't have those the class should work fine...
Honestly, my Zen Archer monk just dipped 2 levels into Sorcerer, got a trait for a +1 caster level, and Mage Armored himself. Got some other nifty benefits too (like the ability to heal good people 1d4 hp per day at range!). I loved it, had a great time with him. Looking forward to playing him again some day.Which bloodline is the best for a dip as such?
But I would take Shield rather than Mage Armour as a Spell known because its still useful at higher levels.
Empyreal (Celestial variant from UM). It uses Wisdom for it's casting stat.
Mage Armor is good at higher levels, unless you spend tons on bracers of armor. You could just dip another level of sorcerer, gain your 2nd level spells, and switch it out at higher levels if you don't want it.
The biggest problem with shield is that it's 1 min/level, not 1 hour/level. So at lower levels it's going to cost you a round of combat to buff yourself. If you do mage armor, you can keep yourself armored the entire adventure day. If you want shield at higher levels, you're better off just buying a wand of it and use a charge each combat.
I've already pointed out that those were pre-racial bonus stats, and I've statted up a monk through 4th level with almost those exact stats with an AC of 22~26. Not sure how much else you would want.You're telling me that STR14,DEX14,CON12,INT10,WIS17,CHA07=15 point buy?
I think the guy's stats include racial bonus:
str 14 (5)
dex 14 (5)
con 12 (2)
int 10 (0)
wis 15 (7) +2 racial bonus = 17A
cha 7 (-4)
= 15 pt buy
The Pearl of Power is actually cheaper than Full Plate too :P
But you can't UMD it to produce a mage armor effect sadly :(
Well, PC's don't exist in a vacum. They exist in the context of a party.
What you can do is hand it to the wizard (if your party has one), if they're going to cast mage armor on themselves, have them cast mage armor on them , recover it with the pearl, and then cast it on you. The monk buys something for the wizard to use for the monks benefit.
The Pearl of Power is actually cheaper than Full Plate too :P
But you can't UMD it to produce a mage armor effect sadly :(
Well, PC's don't exist in a vacum. They exist in the context of a party.
What you can do is hand it to the wizard (if your party has one), if they're going to cast mage armor on themselves, have them cast mage armor on them , recover it with the pearl, and then cast it on you. The monk buys something for the wizard to use for the monks benefit.
Indeed, I typically hand things such as ring of spell storing to the fighter. Often I don't even ask for a pearl to pay for the slot.
I've had a few people playing monks in my campaigns over the past few years, and here's my take on them.
* Weak at low level.
* They eschew most magic items, and in a game about finding buried treasure (yarr!) the player is often left out.
* As soon as they get Abundant Step, they become unstoppable mage-killing machines.
* Masters of grappling, and not being grappled.
* Halflings make awesome monks, believe it or not. Maybe that's just how things panned out for our group.
Haven't had anyone try a monk since the style feats and whatnot came out, so I can't speak as to the effectiveness of those.
Honestly, my Zen Archer monk just dipped 2 levels into Sorcerer, got a trait for a +1 caster level, and Mage Armored himself. Got some other nifty benefits too (like the ability to heal good people 1d4 hp per day at range!). I loved it, had a great time with him. Looking forward to playing him again some day.Which bloodline is the best for a dip as such?
But I would take Shield rather than Mage Armour as a Spell known because its still useful at higher levels.
Empyreal (Celestial variant from UM). It uses Wisdom for it's casting stat.
Mage Armor is good at higher levels, unless you spend tons on bracers of armor. You could just dip another level of sorcerer, gain your 2nd level spells, and switch it out at higher levels if you don't want it.
The biggest problem with shield is that it's 1 min/level, not 1 hour/level. So at lower levels it's going to cost you a round of combat to buff yourself. If you do mage armor, you can keep yourself armored the entire adventure day. If you want shield at higher levels, you're better off just buying a wand of it and use a charge each combat.
Ah I totally forgot that there is a Int and a Wis variant of the Sorcerer.
I always use wands of Mage Armour because most of the time even 5 hours are too little (if you are lvl 5) to reliably cast it at the morning and be buffed all day. At lvl 8 with an extend rod it would be possible. But an 8th lvl wizard can really also spare one of his 1st level spells to buff the Monk.
Yet a wand of Shield is not good in my eyes because it then only lasts 10 rounds. And thats often not even enough for a good encounter. 30 rounds on the contrary will hold all encounter long.
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STR 14, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, Cha 8 is a 20-point buy (and I wouldn't play a monk on less than 20-points). Pre-racial modifiers, and you could even get STR 15, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 14, and CHA 7 if you are willing to take a bigger hit to Charisma.
If your CHA is going to be 8, it might as well be 7. I mean really, that's 10% of your build points just sitting there making a worthless stat slightly less worthless.
Then, pick one of your four fourteens to make a 12 -- and now you're 15pt-buy.
If you are only dipping one level, you can have a caster level of 2 with a trait (+1 CL trait). That will give you 5 1st level spells per day, and if they're mage armor, they'd last 2 hours each. That's 10 hours of mage armor per day.
If you dip two levels (my suggestion), then you're up to 3 hours per casting, and 6 spells per day. That's 18 hours a day. I think that's usually good enough. In addition, a two level dip doesn't hurt your BAB (since you'd get on for Sorcerer as well) and nets you the +1 CL. If you get one of those ioun stones that boosts your CL, then you've got a CL of 4, and you have 24 hour mage armor if you need it (you won't).
If you are only dipping one level, you can have a caster level of 2 with a trait (+1 CL trait). That will give you 5 1st level spells per day, and if they're mage armor, they'd last 2 hours each. That's 10 hours of mage armor per day.
Um... the trait doesn't increase your spell casting only your effective caster level for spell effects that rely on caster level.
What is up with all that intelligence, my monks are generally happily ignorant and abnoxious with 7 intelligence and 7 charisma (5 if your a dwarf, and 3 if you are a duergar). U only really need 2 skills, maybe 3, like sense motive, perception, maybe 1 rank in swim and climb
If you are only dipping one level, you can have a caster level of 2 with a trait (+1 CL trait). That will give you 5 1st level spells per day, and if they're mage armor, they'd last 2 hours each. That's 10 hours of mage armor per day.Um... the trait doesn't increase your spell casting only your effective caster level for spell effects that rely on caster level.
Right... that's what I said...
You get 4 1st level spells for the class, and you should get at least 1 for wisdom, that's 5.
Duration is 1 hour/level (caster level), so that's 2 hours (1 level of sorcerer, +1 CL, 1 + 1 = 2).
5 spells x 2 hours each = 10 hours...
EDIT : Doh! I got the wrong line on the chart. :) Sorry, yeah, it's 3 1st level spells +1 from wisdom (although if you have a 20, doable with racial mods, it'd still be 5). :)
That explains a lot, all good.
What is up with all that intelligence, my monks are generally happily ignorant and abnoxious with 7 intelligence and 7 charisma (5 if your a dwarf, and 3 if you are a duergar). U only really need 2 skills, maybe 3, like sense motive, perception, maybe 1 rank in swim and climb
Several people will complain about the 'double dump' -- personally I don't have a problem with it, but in order to avoid the crap that develops after a double dump (like claims people never do that in someone's campaign or how someone else will punish your character in game for you dumping two stats and such other non-sense) the double dump hasn't been used.
It also allows for a bit more room for optimization down the line and provides a more 'average' (whatever that is) character build.
Par for the course is not par for the sales floor.
Everyone is amazing if someone else takes care of your weak spots. But each class must also stand on its own merits to make meaningful comparisons.
Saying you will get non-class benefits to cover the weaknesses of your class is basically tacit admittance that the class itself doesn't do the job.
==Aelryinth
Saying you will get non-class benefits to cover the weaknesses of your class is basically tacit admittance that the class itself doesn't do the job.
==Aelryinth
- Doesn't a wizard benefit from hiding behind the meat shield in full plate? Isn't he compensating for his weakness in HP and CMD with the high values on the fighter?
- Doesn't a wizard benefit from hiding behind the meat shield in full plate? Isn't he compensating for his weakness in HP and CMD with the high values on the fighter?Saying you will get non-class benefits to cover the weaknesses of your class is basically tacit admittance that the class itself doesn't do the job.
==Aelryinth
No, he could take care of those things himself, either by buffing himself with spells or summoning a creature to be a meatshield instead.
Hint: Spells > Anything that isn't spells
This is why UMD is widely considered the best spell in the game.
- Doesn't a wizard benefit from hiding behind the meat shield in full plate? Isn't he compensating for his weakness in HP and CMD with the high values on the fighter?Saying you will get non-class benefits to cover the weaknesses of your class is basically tacit admittance that the class itself doesn't do the job.
==Aelryinth
Benefit and reliance are two different animals.
A wizard might benefit from the fighter existing however a wizard doesn't rely on him he cna use summons, defensive spells, or just plain good sense where he might never have need for the fighters fleshy bulk.
Indeed, with spells like Mirror Image, wind wall, fly around a well played wizard obviates the need for a meat shield. Damage is a bigger issue though but can done with summons again.
Sure, once the wizard becomes able to cast those spells. But, guys, that isn't an option for a lower level wizard or sorcerer. 1st-7th level, the casty types NEED meat shields in order to survive. That is part of the price of their power: at low levels, they are very vulnerable.
Master Arminas
Isn't this all pointless? I thought we had already seen that a monk can have perfectly fine AC without mage armor?
Grease an orc's weapon and you've removed 90% of his threat and could likely just beat him up yourself because of all the AoO's he makes. Oh and it lasts for 1 minute at level 1.
1-level Synthesiest dip gives the monk pounce and cures him of MAD. Just dump every stat except wisdom. Or if you have extra points left over, get some int or cha.
Power attack and pounce every round, yay.
Sure, once the wizard becomes able to cast those spells. But, guys, that isn't an option for a lower level wizard or sorcerer. 1st-7th level, the casty types NEED meat shields in order to survive. That is part of the price of their power: at low levels, they are very vulnerable.
Master Arminas
I'm sorry I can't hear you over the sleep spell I was casting to ruin that low level encounter.
Sorry I couldn't hear you over the cursing from that low level wizard that failed his concentration check when I hit him while he was casting a spell that takes a round to cast.
Sorry I couldn't hear you over the cursing from that low level wizard that failed his concentration check when I hit him while he was casting a spell that takes a round to cast.
Well a color spray would just be plain unfair.
Of course it would you'd be screwed trying to cast it.
Of course it would you'd be screwed trying to cast it.
I fail to see how.
Are we putting forth a scenario wherein the spellcaster has managed to lose initiative, get surrounded, and while he was at it has now been tripped and sat on? I can see that. Though admittedly this would kind of screw anyone.
Though really let's be honest here. We are assuming this is a wizard. I could just as easily be a witch hitting someone with the sleep hex. Or better a cleric who is just plain slapping you about.
But I digress. We were talking about monks anyway.
Monk Monk Monk -- I stand by the opinion that the monk can have fine AC without sacrificing offensive effectiveness. The hardest level for a monk is first, after that it all builds nicely.
Honestly, my Zen Archer monk just dipped 2 levels into Sorcerer, got a trait for a +1 caster level, and Mage Armored himself. Got some other nifty benefits too (like the ability to heal good people 1d4 hp per day at range!). I loved it, had a great time with him. Looking forward to playing him again some day.Which bloodline is the best for a dip as such?
But I would take Shield rather than Mage Armour as a Spell known because its still useful at higher levels.
There is only one bloodline that is viable in my opinion: The celestial bloodline archetype that bases your casting off wisdom instead of Charisma. Allowing you to still dump cha. Because the 5 points you are NOT getting by having Cha is gonna hamstring you more than mage armor and shield is going to help.
Empyreal Bloodline, but yes, it's the Celestial alternate bloodline. It does make your casting stat Wis instead of Cha.
Now, if we could just get the equivalent for Oracles and Wizards, we'd be golden. :)
Empyreal Bloodline, but yes, it's the Celestial alternate bloodline. It does make your casting stat Wis instead of Cha.
Now, if we could just get the equivalent for Oracles and Wizards, we'd be golden. :)
You mean sorcerers?
You mean sorcerers?Empyreal Bloodline, but yes, it's the Celestial alternate bloodline. It does make your casting stat Wis instead of Cha.
Now, if we could just get the equivalent for Oracles and Wizards, we'd be golden. :)
No, he's right. Sorcerers already have that, and he'd like for Oracles and Wizards to have something similar.
No, he's right. Sorcerers already have that, and he'd like for Oracles and Wizards to have something similar.You mean sorcerers?Empyreal Bloodline, but yes, it's the Celestial alternate bloodline. It does make your casting stat Wis instead of Cha.
Now, if we could just get the equivalent for Oracles and Wizards, we'd be golden. :)
Ohh, you/he means the ability to switch out primary stats.
Bingo! Toss that azure solar mass a cupie doll! :)
Edit : I think a wizard/monk would be all sorts of flavorable, especially a scroll wielding monk. Tossing out 'prayers' on his scrolls to do his spells, and still able to go toe to toe with a rogue. :)
But as MAD as monks are, having Str/Con/Int/Wis is nigh onto impossible.
Cupie dolls are creepy and I'm genuinely surprised that they don't have alternate class features for those two classes already. Naturally I don't pay attention to them, because if I'm going to play something that punches people, I'm going to do it in Champions (I like knockback, even if character creation sucks, that's what Hero Designer is for), and I refuse to do all the freaking work being a wizard entails.... again. I did it when I got into the game and said "never again". I meant it.
They have archetypes, but nothing that switches the casting stat.
Also, if you actually throw a cupie doll at me, I can't be held responsible for my actions, seriously: they creep me out.
Frankly, I think the ninja makes a better monk than monk does, so there's always that option, take a few levels of paladin for your saves. Don't wear armor, use shadow clones for your defense.
Doesn't have the right feel. I like the idea of the aged monk studying his ancient texts by the candle light, ink stains on his fingers, then busting out a can of wup-butt on the rogue that sneaks in to steal his tomes. :)
Unarmed fighter then?
Unarmed fighter then?
Is it expected that an unarmed fighter's str bonus will be so high that he'll never have to worry about the difference in damage dice between what he can do and what a monk can do?
Unarmed fighter then?Is it expected that an unarmed fighter's str bonus will be so high that he'll never have to worry about the difference in damage dice between what he can do and what a monk can do?
By my reckoning...
A Brawler archetyped fighter can have +5 attack/+7 damage from close combatant and a further +4 damage from Weapon Spec/GWS, for a net +5 attack +11 damage over what a monk is capable of. As the monk caps at 2d10 unarmed damage, or average 11 damage vs. the fighters d3+11, or average 12.5 damage, the fighter is actually far better off than 2d10 with the accuracy figured in.
An actual Unarmed Fighter actually has Weapon Training, meaning he can use Gloves of Dueling to boost that to a potential +6/+6, for a total +6/+10 non-duplicable damage, which means an average 11.5... still better than the monk, and more accurate again.
Its worth noting as well that the figures for the Unarmed Fighter aren't actually any different from a Base Fighter, he just gets additional supplemental tricks.
Further Edit: The conclusion I would draw from this is two things; dont try and outfight a Fighter, you can't, and dont use Unarmed Attacks, weapons are better anyway.
He's a fighter, even with just his mits he will beat you to death. Unless he's fighting a paladin/anti-paladin and the wrong alignment.