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The fact that examples of doing it wrong are consistently referencing optimization levels with little to no mention of how you actually play, tells me that people still think optimization leads to non-social gaming (or that one is a symptom of the other).
While it is possible to have a personality at the table that is just over the top and borish, and for that person to have a character that is not uber-optimized... I'd wager that the over-the-top person with borish behavior is the type of person to often make the over-the-top character that dominates everything. Because that's their personality and they don't know how to interact socially any better than that.
So yeah, I'd say that often uber-optimized characters that are actively used to dominate scenarios are a symptom of a character flaw.
But uber-optimized characters that are actively used to cooperate with the party and help others shine as much as your character shines... aren't an issue in my book. They are like any other character that is being an integral part of a shared story.
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I don't know why people are taking the philosophy of "get found" so personally.I don't think anyone's taking it personally. I also don't think that anyone's taking my "you can't please everyone" comment personally. We're just not in complete agreement, that's all.
What exactly don't you agree with?
Are you saying it is ok for you to completely dominate a table and make it unfun for others just because you find it enjoyable?
What exactly don't you agree with?
Are you saying it is ok for you to completely dominate a table and make it unfun for others just because you find it enjoyable?
Andrew, I don't think I can add anything new at this point. I agree with everyone else on this point: Let's find a group of great people and have a fun game.
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Andrew, I don't think I can add anything new at this point. I agree with everyone else on this point: Let's find a group of great people and have a fun game.What exactly don't you agree with?
Are you saying it is ok for you to completely dominate a table and make it unfun for others just because you find it enjoyable?
I can agree with that.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So yeah, I'd say that often uber-optimized characters that are actively used to dominate scenarios are a symptom of a character flaw.
But uber-optimized characters that are actively used to cooperate with the party and help others shine as much as your character shines... aren't an issue in my book. They are like any other character that is being an integral part of a shared story.
I agree.
Speaking to everyone, not just Andy:
There are people who dominate with optimized PCs.
There are people who dominate without them (over-the-top drama queens who squeeze everyone else out of RP time).
There are people with optimized PCs who don't dominate.
There are people without optimized PCs who don't dominate.
Of those four situations, two are problems and two are innocents. But the message I keep hearing is "watch out for optimized PCs", which misses one of the two problems while also catching an innocent category in the crossfire.
Why is our message one that only covers part of the problem and has collateral damage, when we could just as easily have a message that focuses on the whole problem and has NO collateral damage.
My background in psychology is screaming at me - when the "target" of a discussion like this is not the identified problem itself but rather something that overlaps it, there's usually something else going on. Usually, the people talking don't believe (deep down) that what they say is the problem really is the problem - they'll give lipservice to a "target" that is acceptable to label as the real issue, but all their effort and discussion and whatnot centers around what they feel is the real issue.
People saying "the issue is X" and then spending all their time discussing Y is a red flag - even if there's an 80% overlap - that can often mean the people in the discussion aren't being honest with themselves about their feelings toward Y. The noble cause of X is what they tell themselves it's all about because they don't think having an issue with Y is okay.
I'm sure everyone in this thread agrees that dominating a table is bad. But most of the discussion isn't about dominating a table; it's about optimized PCs, and then that subject gets linked back to the "official" topic when necessary.
My guess is that there are some people who have a grudge against optimized PCs (for whatever reason - potentially justified), and others who don't honestly see a difference between optimization and domination. In either case, they "know" intellectually that (in theory) there's nothing wrong with optimization and that it's not the same thing as domination, but their feelings are to the contrary. As such, direct statements will assert what they "know", while trends in behavior show us what they really believe.
Unfortunately, people often don't feel safe enough to acknowledge a discrepancy between what they feel and what they know - but not acknowledging it means they keep acting one way while saying something else.
Hopefully this all makes sense to at least somebody, and is helpful in some way. In the meantime, I'll continue to make strong PCs who don't hurt anyone and maybe slowly let people's feelings adjust toward their knowledge. :)
Venture-Captain, Arizona—Tucson
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It's very difficult to build an organized play scenario that can't be steamrolled by extreme builds. Creatures able to hit an AC 35 PC will crush more normal builds. Monsters able to survive a PC who dishes out 120 hp/round will outlast the resources of more typical builds. Without the ability to customize challenges to the party, Organized Play GMs may be unable to give everyone an entertaining challenge.
There's nothing wrong with playing such an uber-optimized PC in and of itself. It's just a bad idea for someone to regularly deny the other player characters in his party have a moment to shine. If you're a brutal fighter, take "rear guard" once or twice so the other melee combatants have a chance to contribute. If you're optimzed for spellcasting, don't immediately charm every humanoid you meet: Let the other PCs have a chance to set the tone.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you're a brutal fighter, take "rear guard" once or twice so the other melee combatants have a chance to contribute. If you're optimzed for spellcasting, don't immediately charm every humanoid you meet: Let the other PCs have a chance to set the tone.
Solid advice. ::thumbsup::
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"How is playing this character making the game more enjoyable for the other players at the table, including the GM?"
That is the zen koan of getting found.
When you can apply it to all of your PFS characters, then you may take this character sheet with the AC 74, 300 damage per strike Splattering Rampager from my hand and leave the monastery.
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For those of you who are arguing for Getting Found and think that this thread has sucked the life out of concept, I want to assure it has done some good. I changed the way I play some of my characters after reading the original post. I've also started to identify other players in my group that are hindering people's fun by not being found. It was eye-opening. I'll pass on the wisdom to those that'll listen.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Well, Dennis, he yields to Aquaman when appropriate. You don't see Aquaman trying to control a rampaging killer whale, when Superman bursts onto the scene, punches the whale into orbit, and resumes his other duties, all within the space of a panel.
i mean, look at any Justice League fight. Rather than taking out the vilain with a hundred thousand super-powered punches thrown at lightning speed before anybody else* can act, he lets his colleagues pound on the guy first.
*(aside from the human-strength guy in red tights)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well, Dennis, he yields to Aquaman when appropriate. You don't see Aquaman trying to control a rampaging killer whale, when Superman bursts onto the scene, punches the whale into orbit, and resumes his other duties, all within the space of a panel.
i mean, look at any Justice League fight. Rather than taking out the vilain with a hundred thousand super-powered punches thrown at lightning speed before anybody else* can act, he lets his colleagues pound on the guy first.
*(aside from the human-strength guy in red tights)
True, but Clark knows he lives in a world of cardboard. So he's more than happy to sit back.
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Guy - I really liked your post. Really nice - I think you got it.
hay! Guy Humual-(not being confruntational in the least, so please do not take this in a bad way or anything) If we meet at the gaming table, say for the fictional adventure "Whips & Midgets, a Chaliaxian Romance for Tier 3-7", and I say - "What sub-tier are we playing, what'er you planning to run? I've got a bunch of characters at 3 to 7 and need to decide what I'll run" what do you say?
I am not Guy, but my response would probably be:
"Play what you want, but I am hoping to bring my 3rd level whip-wielding Lore Warden for this mod, because it sounds like it is just up his alley."|
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HA! I know what you mean. I was considering my Harlot with her whip, but we might be bumping heads. She's a Face with almost no combat skills (her disarm with her whip is only +8, and that's really her only whip trick), A Bard/Street Preformer - so is yours a little more combat and less social skills? (Switching to the characters voice) "I'm not like other bards love, I have very little in the way of knowledge skills - being a Lore Warden perhaps you could show me some things in the Library?"Guy - I really liked your post. Really nice - I think you got it.
hay! Guy Humual-(not being confruntational in the least, so please do not take this in a bad way or anything) If we meet at the gaming table, say for the fictional adventure "Whips & Midgets, a Chaliaxian Romance for Tier 3-7", and I say - "What sub-tier are we playing, what'er you planning to run? I've got a bunch of characters at 3 to 7 and need to decide what I'll run" what do you say?
I am not Guy, but my response would probably be:
"Play what you want, but I am hoping to bring my 3rd level whip-wielding Lore Warden for this mod, because it sounds like it is just up his alley."
Grumble. Internet Exploder ate my original response.
Heh. "Sure, little lady, I would be happy to help you explore any part of the library, to your heart's content." My Lore Warden is a Fighter archetype, so his BAB is full, and he is a Strength build, so he hits fairly well, he just doesn't get much boost to his damage from the 1d3 for his whip, most of the damage coming from strength and now Power Attack. At 5th level, he is actually going to go onto slow track, since he will have the central feat I am building him toward (Improved Whip Mastery), so he can two-hand his whip, instead of wielding whip and dagger (not TWF, just using the dagger for his AoOs); although I might take him farther down the Indy path and take a dip into Gunslinger to get him a pistol...
A couple of recent games I played with him, where you might think he played a second fiddle for some things, but didn't:
The Liberal Arts party, which was my Lore Warden, an Oracle of Lore, a Cleric with the Knowledge Domain, an aristocrat (Rogue/Bard, I think), and a Sorcerer (our party member who didn't get to roll for any-and-all Knowledge skill checks). We weren't heavy on melee damage (1d3+4 or, when we could, the aristocrat getting the extra d6 of damage), but we usually knew everything about our opponents...
And the game where my whip wielder, using the blog information that Trip weapons can also be used to do Drag & Reposition maneuvers, was able to pull an enemy caster out of a tree, that the Barbarian had already failed at climbing twice before my character got close enopugh to reach.
(Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C; never trust forums or browsers)
(Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C; never trust forums or browsers)But it was a CTRL character that botched it up.
That, and the firewall here at work. The Back button brought back the posting window, but as of when it was created, not where I had written to.
That sucks. It's a bit of overkill, but when I'm making a large post I've been known to open Word and type it up there so things like that don't happen. Word at least saves drafts.
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nosig here
yeah, but I never start out makeing long posts! I just tend to be long winded.
Callarek- sounds like we'd be a good match then. Check her out (I'm posting with her write up). I'd like to see a Healer, and maybe a Traps guy, and as always I'd expect a Max Damage (some mods just got to have one) to show up. But it looks like we got the start of a good team.
"My Callarek, but you are the sweet thing! You don't need to call me a Lady - as I don't have a title, other than maybe Lady of the Evening. If you don't mind, during the mission brief - I'll sit near you, I'm much more comfortable near someone I know." while sliding into the seat next to you she'll slide a note to you. "This is business - and will in no way influence the tour of the Library later today..." trail fingertip across you forearm... The Note reads:
During the course of our upcoming mission, if at any time you find yourself in need of my special talents used in a discrete fashion, you may feel free to request that I fulfill some task for you. No questions asked. I am quite good with influencing people, and I do have many other skills that would be at your disposal. And I am always discrete.
In return, I would like to think I could call on you at some point to assist me with a small task, something that I feel I am unable to do on my own. And I am sure I could also rely on you to be discrete in these matters also.
I would assure you that I would never ask you to do anything which you would find overtly distasteful. Nothing to violate any personal code or vows you have.
Sign here:____________ Signed Katisha Lee
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't grasp this analogy at all. Hide and seek isn't a social game, it doesn't encourage people to work together, and the idea that you can't have fun if you're very good at it is absurd. Getting found in hide and seek is loosing the game. Usually once you're found your participation is at an end until the next round starts. Not being found is exciting, you're on edge, and nothing is more fantastic then hearing someone walk by but then fail to notice you. Getting found would please the seeker but then it would mean sitting around and waiting for everyone else to be discovered.
#1 H&S is definitely a social game. Try playing it alone sometime. Maybe you've forgotten the rules...
#2 The story is about someone hiding way past when everyone gets bored looking for him so no-one is talking about losing the excitement of having someone walk past you or waiting for others. But if folks who are "...so good, no one could find him. The kid hid so well that eventually the rest of kids gave up trying to find him.", eventually people just don't bother looking for you at all.
Being the second to last kid found is kind of the sweet spot.
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Sir_Wulf
Indeed - it is about balance. Be good enough to stay hidden for a while, be bad enough to be found eventually.
Maybe the following illustrates this a little bit. During my university days I was part of a team - 'Die Legionaere' - and we participated at the German Boardgame Championchips. You would take some ordinary boardgames, been told 6 weeks ahead which games you need to learn and I would start analyzing them, do statistics, trying to get the edge whereever possible.
It was a great time, our team did win more than once and I enjoyed it immensly.
But I soon figured out something. Nearly every single game I analyzed and perfected to play for a championship suddently was no longer fun as an occasional casual game with my 'normal' friends. I was too good, I knew every single trick, I could tell the moment another player would make a suboptimal choice. I would probably win 95% of times with my 'normal' friends. This was neither fun for them - as they had hardly a chance - nor for me - as I had no challenge.
Luckily being German there are sooooo many board games out there. And new ones coming out every year. One of my team mates even founded his own company and is pretty successful now (LookOut Games). You just choose a game that you have never played competitive. And I learned not to try too hard mastering these games as being too good ruins the fun.
Being not too good isn't the same as being bad. I will likely never be able to be truly bad in a game. But I learned where the border is to become too good for my own enjoyment.
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That sucks. It's a bit of overkill, but when I'm making a large post I've been known to open Word and type it up there so things like that don't happen. Word at least saves drafts.(Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C; never trust forums or browsers)But it was a CTRL character that botched it up.
That, and the firewall here at work. The Back button brought back the posting window, but as of when it was created, not where I had written to.
If you use Chrome, get Lazarus.
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But I soon figured out something. Nearly every single game I analyzed and perfected to play for a championship suddently was no longer fun as an occasional casual game with my 'normal' friends. I was too good, I knew every single trick, I could tell the moment another player would make a suboptimal choice. I would probably win 95% of times with my 'normal' friends. This was neither fun for them - as they had hardly a chance - nor for me - as I had no challenge.
There are very very few games that can survive the kind of analysis you describe and remain fun. Most of them remain fun because there's a cadre of players who also do that level of analysis, and they quickly move into two gamer demographics: Casual and hard core.
As someone who designs games for a living, I have to be very very careful not to play with my designer hat on. I completely ruined Dominion by getting intensely interested in the game on my second time through playing it, and by my fourth time playing it, none of my local players would sit down at the game with me.
Pathfinder's release schedule, and power-creep-by-expansion (Alchemist, Summoner) coupled with the sheer volume of options means that it's like shiny shiny catnip to analytical players. Indeed, most players think a lot more comparative, numerical analysis goes into making mechanics than actually is the case for Pathfinder...but PFS itself is meant for the "casual play" level of game, and the Zen Koan applies:
"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
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Indeed, most players think a lot more comparative, numerical analysis goes into making mechanics than actually is the case for Pathfinder...but PFS itself is meant for the "casual play" level of game, and the Zen Koan applies:
"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
Absolutely. But you should also contemplate the question:
"Which is less fun: for PC 1 to overshadow PC 2, or for PC 2 to die because PC 1 couldn't prevent it?"
There is no "right" answer, of course.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Sir_Wulf
<snip>
Being not too good isn't the same as being bad. I will likely never be able to be truly bad in a game. But I learned where the border is to become too good for my own enjoyment.
I have a similar issue with Battletech. The gang I used to play with commonly couldn't handle my style of play and psyched themselves out.* So it only really became fun when I went to Origins and played in the open. When I wasn't playing against someone from the Comic Town Mafia** I normally got my head handed to me but I had fun, and learned. Only came out ahead twice.***
It's like watching Ohio State beat on Ohio University. You know OU is going to get slaughtered, so what's the fun in watching?****
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I still don't think this applies to D&D/Pathfinder, this is by it's very nature a team game, others rely on your game play to survive the scenarios, and H&S is a very anti social game. One is played with friends, the other is played against friends. One encourages team play, the other is encourages individual play.
Then on top of it all the advice is contrary to the very nature of the game. It's like telling someone playing a shooter style video game: "Get shot!"
Advise like "get found" given to someone hiding also isn't going to improve the game for the group. If one kid is suddenly very easy to find then it improves the game for exactly one person (though it might make the game slightly quicker for the others). Like I'm sure in the right context it's fine advise, but it's very situation based, and from personal experience as an adult playing with young children better advice would be given to the seeker like: "don't always find everyone", or "make a lot of noise"
Guy, the point you're missing - as you go plowing into the details of an analogy, is this:
Not everyone realizes that Pathfinder, and PFS in particular, is a team game. They see it as a platform for standing there, showing the severed head of the rules hanging by its hair, demonstrating that they are smarter than all the rules designers at Paizo, and looking for the accolades of the cheering masses for their rules mastery.
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Indeed, most players think a lot more comparative, numerical analysis goes into making mechanics than actually is the case for Pathfinder...but PFS itself is meant for the "casual play" level of game, and the Zen Koan applies:
"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
Absolutely. But you should also contemplate the question:
"Which is less fun: for PC 1 to overshadow PC 2, or for PC 2 to die because PC 1 couldn't prevent it?"
There is no "right" answer, of course.
I have never seen a PFS scenario where an overshadowing PC was necessary to prevent another PC's death.
I have seen scenarios where a blind oracle with a STR of 10 was the party's tank.
I have seen scenarios where the party's fighter was the social skills monkey.
I have seen scenarios where a STR 14 monk with hot dice and favorable (to him) terrain took down three out of four NPCs in an encounter before the rest of the party got to act.
Your argument would carry more weight if PFS combat encounters were, in general, difficult. (Though there seems to be a serious transition state going from tier 4-5 to tier 6-7; it could also be that my fighter's relatively low hit points are coming back to haunt him...)
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I do not see this in the story. All I can do is feel sorry for the kid that got yelled at, that has someone else telling him HOW to play.
I agree that the story is suboptimal. It's trying to educate via parable to a demographic that has a significant population of rules lawyers. This seldom ever ends well...and you and Guy are both trying to figure out how the exact wording of the parable leads to the message intended.
So. Forget the parable.
Answer the question below.
"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
And yes, sometimes the right answer is "Because I can average 35 points per hit with my flaming burst human-bane Large Falcata while maintaining an armor class of 41, because the next best melee character we've got is the Gnome Draconic bloodline sorcerer with a STR of 5."
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"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
AdAstra
Thanks for your posts. Do I know any games you have developed? I took the liberty to boldface one part of what you write as it is dear to my heart.
If I'm posting here, then I do this a lot with my GM hat on.
If seen it happening - the player who seemed to get a lot of fun from breaking a module and trying to outwit the GM and a scenario.
Often such a player is even cheered on by fellow players. This should not be mistaken as fun for everyone.
PFS is a team game - yes. This does include the GM.
Actually the motivation for my other thread - to thank all the GMs who game mastered for me this year - was partly born from this thread here.
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"How is playing this character making the game more fun for everyone else at the table, including the GM?"
AdAstra
Thanks for your posts. Do I know any games you have developed? I took the liberty to boldface one part of what you write as it is dear to my heart.
I'm best known for a set of miniatures games that do 3-D spaceship combat, with varying levels of physical accuracy from "Highly!" to "You want to take the Enterprise up against the Galactica? Sure!"
My other minor claim to fame is making a four page complete RPG, called Minimus, which is donation-ware, and is designed very much to foster "RPG as social play" as its fundamental reward mechanism.
In terms of what I prefer to run, I prefer to GM games that have mechanics like Minimus or D6 Dramatics (or the table rule I mentioned up thread) where much of the experience/reward mechanism in the game is based off of entertaining the other players, including the GM, rather than simply assuming it will happen on its own.
I also prefer to have RPGs that don't reward system-mastery of mechanics. If I want that kind of play, I'll play a minis game. :)
If I'm posting here, then I do this a lot with my GM hat on.
If seen it happening - the player who seemed to get a lot of fun from breaking a module and trying to outwit the GM and a scenario.
Often such a player is even cheered on by fellow players. This should not be mistaken as fun for everyone.PFS is a team game - yes. This does include the GM.
Pathfinder and D&D are a beautiful example of mating a Skinner treadmill with some misaligned incentives. You get better at killing things, and character growth - what your character believes in - is left up to the player, while we get about a thousand pages of new ways to kill things and new things to kill - every year.
Actually the motivation for my other thread - to thank all the GMs who game mastered for me this year - was partly born from this thread here.
Sehr gut!
I am playing PFS to get a feel for how OrgPlay materials work. I'm trying to see how to make the kinds of games I enjoy GMing and writing work in an OrgPlay format.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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This thread has some great advice for newer players. Here's what I'll add.
Superman may be tremendously more powerful than any other member of the Justice League, but he's still a team player.
Excellent line.
You can picture a party of PCs like the Justice League. Each PC is a superhero, and their abilities compliment one another. And every now and then, one of the PCs is playing Superman -- someone that one shots BBEGs and turns back time by spinning the planet backwards. He's pretty ridiculous, but Justice League isn't about just him, it's about the group of superheroes, working together to defeat evil.
But often players in control of a Superman-PC fail to remember that. They turn the Justice League into Smallville. And nobody likes Smallville, except Superman, because it's all about him.
But why do people like Superman? If he was just on "trololol god-mode" all day, no one would watch that show or buy the comics. If he was invincible, each episode would suck. I think the reason why he is popular is because, despite being an unstoppable alien warrior, he's got flaws -- like we do. Despite his invincible exterior, he has some critical weaknesses: his compassion for the human race, his love for Lois (why???), and of course, kryptonite.
I think that if you are the kind of person that likes playing Superman characters -- like me -- you just need to find your 'kryptonite.' Be they mechanical or otherwise, some serious drawbacks that cause your character to make very un-optimized decisions from time to time.
The final fight in the scenario was against an enemy of the tribe, who was holding a clutch of eggs hostage. As the fight progressed, the BBEG started smashing eggs. My next action was to kill her. Afterwards, I dropped prone as my character fell to her knees, stopped raging, and started sobbing uncontrollably at the loss of her scale-siblings. Keep in mind the fight was still going on. For the next couple of rounds I did nothing but cry, allowing my team-mates to take the spotlight and mop up the rest of the enemy-combatants.
It wasn't the optimal-tactic, in fact, it was a terrible tactic. But it gave everyone else at the table time to shine.
Otherwise, your table turns into Smallville and again, nobody likes Smallville.
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** spoiler omitted **...
As another sign of everybody is different your example drives me nuts Walter.
When I read about examples like that I don't see a real weakness. You had already killed the BBEG, sure there was some trash to clean up but no real threat.
I don't feel like I'm describing myself very well here at the moment. I think I'll try again later though.