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I had an interesting ruling this weekend by a GM I did not agree with, but after talking about the ruling I saw where they were coming from.
The topic is how much Movement it takes to use acrobatics through threatened squares while moving diagonally.
It was ruled by the GM that it would take 3 squares to move diagonally while using acrobatics. The reason for this was that he was using the rules for moving through difficult terrain.
Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.
I did not see it that way, I saw moving diagonally the first time as still only 5ft, the second time as moving 10ft as normal, that the squares do not count as more squares that my movement was just halved.
you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.
Though it may seem the same there is a Huge difference.
Thoughts?
Edit: My brain is going in circles... is there a difference?
Edit: My brain is going in circles... is there a difference?
If your speed is 6 squares, like for most of the humanoids, there isn't one.
There's a huge difference ? I don't see it.
Moving diagonally takes square-root of two (pythagorean theorem). The games rounds this to 1.5, and then adjudicates this as alternating between 1 and 2 (first one takes 1, second one takes 2, etc.)
As quoted, whe you use Acrobatics you move at half speed. I'm not sure it's raw, but my group has played that you can mix acrobatic movement with non-acrobatic movement during the same move action. The way we adjudicate this is for any square you are using acrobatics in, counts double. So moving diagonally would cost 2 or 4 (alternating). Your DM has chosen instead to make a diagonal move while using acrobatics count as 3 always. Huge difference ?
Or am I not understanding the question properly ?
EDITED for spelling
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If your speed is 6 squares, like for most of the humanoids, there isn't one.
Edit: My brain is going in circles... is there a difference?
I think he was halving my movment as well as written in Acrobatics, which at that point makes the difference.
Which means while using acrobatics I could move Diagonally once and that would be the end of my movement.
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I agree with you on this one Dragnmoon, though I know people who rule the way your GM did.
There is a big difference between moving at 1/2 speed and moving through difficult terrain.
Acrobatics at 1/2 speed - When moving on the diagonal your fist square is 5 feet and second is 10 feet. Move two sqares. If you have a 30 foot move you have finished your acrobatic movement.
Acrobatics as difficult terrain - Each diagonal counts as 15 feet. Move one square. If you have a 30 foot move you have finished your acrobatic movement.
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This came up in my mind because someone didn't like that moving diagonally in difficult terrain in TTopRPG costs 15 movement. It was said this was "wrong".
So, I asked James Jacobs in the Paizo chat.
His take was to just double the movement cost moving into that square. So the first difficult diagonal costs 2 squares, and the next one 4. That way, the slower races aren't horribly gimped on their movement and they can at least get one decent diagonal out of it.
So I apply that rule whether the terrain is difficult or speed is halved for any reason.
In short: 2 for the first diagonal, 4 for the next, and toggle.
is there a difference?
By averaging diagonals rather than halving movement speed, some characters may be at a disadvantage. (those with 40' speed, possibly other odd ones)
Gnome, 20' speed, using Acrobatics half: 10'
Square 1: 5'
Done moving, 1 square, 5' total movement (5' wasted).
Elf, 30' speed, using Acrobatics at half: 15'
Square 1: 5'
Square 2: 10'
Done moving, 2 squares, 15' total movement.
Human Monk, 40' Speed, using Acrobatics to half: 20'
Square 1: 5'
Square 2: 10'
Square 3: 5'
Done moving, 3 squares, 20' total movement.
Horse, 50' Speed, using Acrobatics to half: 25'
Square 1: 5'
Square 2: 10'
Square 3: 5'
Done moving, 3 squares, 20' total movement (5' wasted)
Unicorn, 60' Speed, using Acrobatics to half: 30'
Square 1: 5'
Square 2: 10'
Square 3: 5'
Square 4: 10'
Done moving, 4 squares, 30' total movement.
Using your DM's house rule (each square is 15'):
Gnome: 1 square (15' total, 5' wasted)
Elf: 2 squares (30' total)
H.Monk: 2 squares (30' total, 10' wasted)
Horse: 3 squares (45' total, 5' wasted)
Unicorn: 4 squares (60' total)
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I had an interesting ruling this weekend by a GM I did not agree with, but after talking about the ruling I saw where they were coming from.
The topic is how much Movement it takes to use acrobatics through threatened squares while moving diagonally.
It was ruled by the GM that it would take 3 squares to move diagonally while using acrobatics. The reason for this was that he was using the rules for moving through difficult terrain.
Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.I did not see it that way, I saw moving diagonally the first time as still only 5ft, the second time as moving 10ft as normal, that the squares do not count as more squares that my movement was just halved.
you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed.Though it may seem the same there is a Huge difference.
Thoughts?
Edit: My brain is going in circles... is there a difference?
Just to verify, was the GM stacking the penalties?
AKA.
Was he letting you move your whole speed (just making the squares cost double), or was he making the squares cost double and only letting you move your 1/2 speed?
edit: I think that I understand now. Blame lack of coffee this morning.
Thanks Grick
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Since you halve your movement rather than doubling the cost of a square, this is kind-of moot. While I understand that these are mathematically identical, they aren't in this case. You would spend movement as normal (1 square, then 2, then 1, etc) but only receive half the movement. If you chose to re-phrase the rule to "double the cost", then charging 3 squares on every diagonal makes sense.
But if your DM is making you halve your move speed AND charging double, you need to slap him and tell him to stop being a dick.
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Ok I can articulate this better now that I thought About it.
GM was using Difficult terrain Rules for Acrobatics, You still have 6 squares of movement each straight equals 2 squares each diagonal equals 3 squares.
With that I could do the following.
3 Straights = 6 squares
2 Diagonals = 6 Squares
1 Diagonal + 1 Straight = 5 squares (Not enough movement left to move another straight)
While I am saying Acrobatics states you have half movement (15ft) and all other movement rules stay the same.
3 Straights = 15ft
2 Diagonals = 15ft
1 Diagonal + 2 Straights = 15ft
The difference between the two is seen when you combine Diagonal movement with straight movement.
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GM is not convinced, unsure how else to convince him.
Acrobatics is not difficult terrain and there is nothing that says it is. If there is something that else that applies difficult terrain, then they would be correct. This would be true if you were using acrobatics through a thick pile of loose gravel or some-such. Assuming normal flat terrain, it is not difficult terrain in any way and should not use those rules.
EDIT: If rules arguments don't convince them and there isn't some contributing factor that hasn't been clarified, then your DM is just being a dick. Acrobatics is already a lot harder than it used to be and there's no need to nerf it further. Even my heavily dex-based character with max acrobatics ranks can't reliably avoid AoOs against CR-appropriate creatures, much less anyone else who invests in it. Skill focus might help, but CMD simply scales faster than Acro.
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There is a Line in Acrobatics that supports me even more and him even less
You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.
By his ruling this part could not be done, even though it says it can in the book, because by his ruling moving while using acrobatics is equal to 10ft.
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There is a Line in Acrobatics that supports me even more and him even less
You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.By his ruling this part could not be done, even though it says it can in the book, because by his ruling moving while using acrobatics is equal to 10ft.
Then tell him that he needs to clarify right here and now that he's using a house rule so that you can design characters that don't use Acrobatics, as he's nerfing it into uselessness.
Acrobatics movement is NOT harder movement, it's slower/deliberate movement. You have 15ft of movement to use as you will (assuming normally 30ft movement). If it says you get 5ft, you get 5ft.
If you can't convince your GM, its time to deal with it. Rule 0 allows him to do it, and no amount of internet proof is gonna convince him, if whats been posted hasn't already.
Pretend its a houserule, and file it away to use against your enemies for future reference.
Agree with StabbittyDoom. Doubling the movement cost for squares and counting them as difficult terrain is not the same thing. Doubling cost for squares can be used to simulate moving at half speed. Counting squares as difficult terrain indicates that the square is difficult to move through, regardless of your movement.
IMO, moving full speed and doubling costs to simulate half speed should look like:
- Moving normal speed diagonally into a normal square costs 5' for the first square, 10' for the second. Total movement cost: 15'.
- Using acrobatics to move diagonally into a normal square costs 10' for the first square, 20' for the second square. Total cost: 30'.
- Moving normal speed straight into a difficult terrain square costs 10' per square.
- Using Acrobatics to move straight into a difficult terrain square costs 20' per square.
- Moving normal speed diagonally into a difficult terrain square costs 15' per square.
- Using Acrobatics to move diagonally into a difficult terrain square costs 30' per square.
If your DM is counting Acrobatics movement as difficult terrain, then the Nimble Moves + Acrobatic Steps feat chain would allow you to use Acrobatics to move 20' a round, which is more than half your movement.
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If your DM is counting Acrobatics movement as difficult terrain, then the Nimble Moves + Acrobatic Steps feat chain would allow you to use Acrobatics to move 20' a round, which is more than half your movement.
I think you missed the part where the DM was both halving the move speed AND applying difficult terrain penalties, which means only 15' for most medium characters.
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If you can't convince your GM, its time to deal with it. Rule 0 allows him to do it, and no amount of internet proof is gonna convince him, if whats been posted hasn't already.
Pretend its a houserule, and file it away to use against your enemies for future reference.
Should have mentioned this, But this is for PFS and rule 0 Does not apply to written rules in most cases.
As the Organizer I want the players to have the same rules per GM, and I would rather convince the GM he is incorrect then be forced to make the Call as the Organizer.
[EDIT] You are correct StabbityDoom, I did miss that. Also, my original comment on this post was incorrect so edited out :(
If you can't convince your GM, its time to deal with it. Rule 0 allows him to do it, and no amount of internet proof is gonna convince him, if whats been posted hasn't already.
Pretend its a houserule, and file it away to use against your enemies for future reference.
Should have mentioned this, But this is for PFS and rule 0 Does not apply to written rules in most cases.
As the Organizer I want the players to have the same rules per GM, and I would rather convince the GM he is incorrect then be forced to make the Call as the Organizer.
I apologize then, my advice isnt very good for PFS. That being said, isnt there a regional person you can appeal to for rules calls in PFS? My memory of fuzzy, I don't play PFS, but I was fairly certain I saw that. Perhaps sending it up the chain for something more 'official' is an option.
I still stand by the fact that if you've shown him this thread, and he still doesn't agree, you're just not gonna change his mind.
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I apologize then, my advice isnt very good for PFS. That being said, isnt there a regional person you can appeal to for rules calls in PFS? My memory of fuzzy, I don't play PFS, but I was fairly certain I saw that. Perhaps sending it up the chain for something more 'official' is an option.
I still stand by the fact that if you've shown him this thread, and he still doesn't agree, you're just not gonna change his mind.
I am still waiting for him to chime in again, but his original post was to agree with the GM to use Difficult Terrain movement, but that was before I was able to fully articulate why that was wrong.
Edit: And for the Paizo Forums he will not accept anything less then a Developer saying either him or myself is wrong.
quoting this post from earlier in the thread. its hearsay, but probably as close as you're going to get.
his came up in my mind because someone didn't like that moving diagonally in difficult terrain in TTopRPG costs 15 movement. It was said this was "wrong".
So, I asked James Jacobs in the Paizo chat.
His take was to just double the movement cost moving into that square. So the first difficult diagonal costs 2 squares, and the next one 4. That way, the slower races aren't horribly gimped on their movement and they can at least get one decent diagonal out of it.
So I apply that rule whether the terrain is difficult or speed is halved for any reason.
In short: 2 for the first diagonal, 4 for the next, and toggle.
That being said, this is why I dont organize. I really prefer to control who I deal with for this sort of stuff, because the aggravation caused is rarely worth it.
with my 2 cents in, good luck!
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quoting this post from earlier in the thread. its hearsay, but probably as close as you're going to get.
his came up in my mind because someone didn't like that moving diagonally in difficult terrain in TTopRPG costs 15 movement. It was said this was "wrong".
So, I asked James Jacobs in the Paizo chat.
His take was to just double the movement cost moving into that square. So the first difficult diagonal costs 2 squares, and the next one 4. That way, the slower races aren't horribly gimped on their movement and they can at least get one decent diagonal out of it.
So I apply that rule whether the terrain is difficult or speed is halved for any reason.
In short: 2 for the first diagonal, 4 for the next, and toggle.
That being said, this is why I dont organize. I really prefer to control who I deal with for this sort of stuff, because the aggravation caused is rarely worth it.
with my 2 cents in, good luck!
I usually rule it that way as well to allow someone to use acro for only a portion of their movement. It also seems more realistic to me (you move more carefully for exactly how long you need to, not until an abstract action is done).
@Dragnmoon: Tell your DM that it's PFS and you don't have to trust your DM, if you've provided a rules citation that contradicts them, you can force them to show you a rules citation to support their opinion*. If they can't provide a rule that agrees with them, but you can provide one that contradicts them, they MUST use the rule that actually exists in print. I've done this exactly once playing PFS (noting that the move action to draw a weapon does not prohibit a 5ft step).
*With the caveat that this is generally done away from the table, of course.
PS: It's scientifically unsound to demand that you prove something right. You're supposed to try to prove it wrong and fail.
And for the Paizo Forums he will not accept anything less then a Developer saying either him or myself is wrong.
Well, the developers wrote the rules, and the rules say "When moving in this way, you move at half speed."
If I was a monk in his PFS game and I lost a square of movement because he's waiting for a personal letter from JB, I would be fairly annoyed.