Why are Proteans serpentine?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I think the Proteans are marvelously interesting, but I don't understand why the outsiders of chaos incarnate are snake-like. I also wonder why all the Proteans share similar forms, if they are the agents of chaos--but I'm guessing that relates back to why they are serpentine in the first place.

Does anyone know the answer to this, or am I looking for meaning where there isn't any?

Thank you.


The great thing about chaos is that you can be random or not. Being random all the time would be too predictable! They have to keep things chaotic by being consistent some of the time.


Well, originally the denizens of Limbo were the Slaadi, which were all frog-like. Another head-scratcher in the "why" department, but they were a lot of fun. I'm not sure there is a clear answer as to why proteans are serpentine.


Well, in the Tales from the infinite staircase, there is an answer to why slaadi are frog-like. Turns out they are really far more chaotic, but they give birth at the spawning stone, and all those non-frog slaadi are isolated and kept hidden away. The reason is that if the slaadi could mutate as much as they would naturally, it would only be a matter of time until one of them gets too powerful for the slaad lords.


I believe the answer is essentially... Why not?

Dark Archive

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Chaos dreams it a dream of form.

With the Maelstrom being defined as a strange sort of sea, whirling and tempestuous and unpredictable, a sleek 'aquadynamic' sort of form makes some sense for natives of the place. Not necessarily snake-like, perhaps more appropriately, eel-like.

Others might have a more or less fish-like or avian appearance, but we haven't necessarily seen them yet...

Either way, a sleek form, nimble and lithe, would perhaps be best suited for pushing through the primal chaos, and coiling away from the parts that are too dangerous and whimsical for even the *natives* to be willing to touch.

Contributor

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My explanation comes with the disclaimer that I'm on a terrible wifi connection at a villa at a winery high in the NC mountains, and it's insanely cold right now (but the stay is free...) so my answer may be a short and dirty version rather than wholly comprehensive of what went into the design process for the proteans.

They're inspired by the ancient Egyptian cosmology origin story of the Ogdoad of Hermopolis (the names of their castes are derived shamelessly). Yay relatively obscure religious myth! Technically the slaadi were also somewhat derived from the same source, but they only drew upon the frog part of the myth, not the serpent part of the myth. So... yoink!

Also, in making the Maelstrom a pseudo-aquatic environment, their forms (like Set said) are tailed evolved for the place. I would expect their forms to warp and evolve in subtle ways depending on local conditions, and I think I described the keketar explicitely as having only their drifting crowns of swirling (and everchanging) runes and piercing violet eyes (with one specific keketar having eyes to match wayne reynolds cover art for the great beyond) as constants. Otherwise they shift color and form around the same baseline pretty damn freely even as you might stand there and talk to them (and their presence might make you do the same...).

The artwork kicks ass usually, but it's hard to depict them with their tendency to shift colors, patterns, number and type of teeth, spines, eyes, number of limbs, etc though all around the same serpentine baseline.

Secondly, you can think of the proteans in some capacity as the immune system of the Maelstrom. And like for instance various immunoglobulins, which have a constant and omg variable portion of their structure, the proteans are the same sort of way with the serpentine form being constant, but around that it could potentially get crazy, especially as you move away from the shallows and deeper into the Cerulean Void (where it's hinted to be infinite and like the old deep ethereal in AD&D it branches between multiverses, all of which are like islands in an infinite ocean, or fragile transient soap bubbles floating on the surface of an endless deep.

That help explain it somewhat?


I like the proteans a lot more than those ugly, 'always chaotic-stupid' slaad.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

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Serpents as representing primal chaos have a strong tradition in Near-Eastern mythology. Tiamat, for example, is actually a chthonic serpent-deity associated with water, fecundity and disorder. Generally in these myths, female serpent/chaos entities are destroyed or imprisoned by male creator gods in order to set the stage for civilization. Other examples include Apep (an unusually male example) and Echidna--and possibly Leviathan, as a descendant of a more prominent figure.


Demiurge 1138 wrote:
Serpents as representing primal chaos have a strong tradition in Near-Eastern mythology. Tiamat, for example, is actually a chthonic serpent-deity associated with water, fecundity and disorder. Generally in these myths, female serpent/chaos entities are destroyed or imprisoned by male creator gods in order to set the stage for civilization. Other examples include Apep (an unusually male example) and Echidna--and possibly Leviathan, as a descendant of a more prominent figure.

Don't forget Typhon. ;)


I see. Thank you, this has been most informative.


I'm pretty sure Pathfinder has proteans because Slaad are one of those things not on the OGL. I could be wrong.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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We made Proteans have serpentine bodies and primeval looking sea monster heads to make them look prehistoric, to reflect the fact that they're one of the oldest forms of life in reality. Then we hired Todd to punch that all up. :-)

Shadow Lodge

My personal belief is that as the embodiment of chaos, there should be no single body type.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
I like the proteans a lot more than those ugly, 'always chaotic-stupid' slaad.

<sniff, sniff> {dabs away her tears, scratches Umbral Reaver off the Christmas card list}


I don't celebrate Christmas! So there! Also, was there ever a module written where the slaad weren't just plain evil or chaotic stupid?


Slaadi aren't the most frequent monsters in any module, and when they are used they are almost exclusively combat encounters.

4th edition tried, with a discussion of trying to talk to a slaad.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Planescape had a few books with Xanxost the blue slaad as one of the "authors". Xanxost was a scholar of demons, which he studied by killing and eating them. He wasn't a bad guy, but single minded and a bit dumb (which, for their listed Int of 8, makes good sense for a blue slaad). He ended up a major player in the Planescape game I ran in college, and everyone loved him.


Demiurge 1138 wrote:
Planescape had a few books with Xanxost the blue slaad as one of the "authors". Xanxost was a scholar of demons, which he studied by killing and eating them. He wasn't a bad guy, but single minded and a bit dumb (which, for their listed Int of 8, makes good sense for a blue slaad). He ended up a major player in the Planescape game I ran in college, and everyone loved him.

He's awesome! His parts in 'Faces of Evil' are the most entertaining. The passion with which he hates the Baatezu...

Another small fact about Slaadi: According to Forgotten Realms lore, they are (at least partially) immigrants to Limbo. Their ancestors are the Batrachi, one of the Creator Races.

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Fabius Maximus wrote:


Another small fact about Slaadi: According to Forgotten Realms lore, they are (at least partially) immigrants to Limbo. Their ancestors are the Batrachi, one of the Creator Races.

I remember seeing that and going 'what the I don't even...' ;)

That got tossed out but later redacted and clarified by saying that the Slaadi were natives to Limbo as always, but that the "slaad lord" Bazim-Gorag (who was CE rather than CN) was not in fact a slaad but a unique batrachi who had immigrated to Limbo with some of his race.

And the planar continuity nazi living inside of me was thereafter much happier, or at least pacified in one small instance.


Todd Stewart wrote:

That got tossed out but later redacted and clarified by saying that the Slaadi were natives to Limbo as always, but that the "slaad lord" Bazim-Gorag (who was CE rather than CN) was not in fact a slaad but a unique batrachi who had immigrated to Limbo with some of his race.

And the planar continuity nazi living inside of me was thereafter much happier, or at least pacified in one small instance.

Pokes Todd's planar continuity nazi witha sharp stick.

Wasn't Bazim-Gorag (together with elemental gods) turned into Primordial in 4th edition Forgotten Realms? Or was it someone else, can't remember.

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Drejk wrote:


Wasn't Bazim-Gorag (together with elemental gods) turned into Primordial in 4th edition Forgotten Realms? Or was it someone else, can't remember.

Something like that yeah. I've not been paying attention lately though, given the utter break in continuity, planar and otherwise there in 4e FR.


Todd Stewart wrote:
Fabius Maximus wrote:


Another small fact about Slaadi: According to Forgotten Realms lore, they are (at least partially) immigrants to Limbo. Their ancestors are the Batrachi, one of the Creator Races.

I remember seeing that and going 'what the I don't even...' ;)

That got tossed out but later redacted and clarified by saying that the Slaadi were natives to Limbo as always, but that the "slaad lord" Bazim-Gorag (who was CE rather than CN) was not in fact a slaad but a unique batrachi who had immigrated to Limbo with some of his race.

And the planar continuity nazi living inside of me was thereafter much happier, or at least pacified in one small instance.

Yeah, I recall something like that. But I like this origin story of the Slaadi. It explains why they are chaotic in mind, but not in form.


Kthulhu wrote:
My personal belief is that as the embodiment of chaos, there should be no single body type.
Protean Subtype wrote:
Change Shape (Su): A protean’s form is not fixed. Once per day as a standard action, a protean may change shape into any Small, Medium, or Large animal, elemental, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. A protean can resume its true form as a free action, and when it does so, it gains the effects of a heal spell (CL equal to the protean’s HD).

:)

Shadow Lodge

Ahh, but my point is that the "true form" shouldn't be serpentine for all proteans. Hell, I dont' think there should even be a single "true form" for one particular type of protean.

Sovereign Court

planescape fun were in 2e Slaadi.

Guide was already talked name who what modules the of the in ?

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