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In one of the games I'm involved in on these boards, one of the players frequently 'cycles' his rolls. This works by checking what dice he's going to roll (preview button) and if he doesn't like what he's going to get, posting, deleting the post, and then checking again. He's done this quite a few times now and I've caught him (largely on accident) several times.
I've tried to ignore it and just enjoy the game on my own but I can't.
Complicating factors are thus:
*The cheating player is a close friend of the DM.
*I'm in the PbP with a friend and he's worried about me 'rocking the boat' and possibly causing the whole game to collapse.
I tried getting the DM's email address so I could address it behind the scenes but my subtle plan failed when the DM insisted I post all OOC discussion on the OOC thread.
What should I do?
You have three choices
1) ignore it and live with it.
2) put forth your concerns in the OOC (this may rock the boat)
3) put forth your concerns in the OOC with screen shots of the cheating (using Alt+Printscreen, MS paint and hosting the data on photobucket) showing both the original roll and his cheated roll.
with evidence present he may get kicked out of the game and get a rep as a cheater, among his peers and may no longer get into any games.
in the screen shots try to highlight the discrepancies between the two,
like the die roll, the posting time of nearby posts and his post time.
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I have good screenshots of both the before and afters for three different instances. I started taking them when I realized I might need proof.
That said, calling him out and proving him a cheater will definitely rock the boat. If it was just my game I would do it without hesitation but the friend I'm sharing the game with is terrified of confrontation. He's okay with the cheating and would prefer I just keep what I know to myself.
Then the question is
"What is it that you want to do?"
answer this and you'll have your answer.
Sometimes you have to rock the boat to right some wrongs.
I also hate confrontation, but there are some things I would fight for, even if it tramples on a few toes.
You have one other option. Drop out of the game. Those are the only four options you really have.
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I wholly agree.
I know what I want to do. I would love nothing more than to host all my evidence and link it in a big tell-all post. I don't know what to do that will make me feel better about the situation while leaving my friend with his blanket of non-confrontation.
Interestingly enough just posting the problem here has made me feel quite a bit better.
I may try again to get the DM's email address so I can discuss it with him privately. That seems like the best approach if I can pull it off.
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You have one other option. Drop out of the game. Those are the only four options you really have.
I seriously considered this one too, but the friend I mentioned vouched to get me in (at my request) and I'm concerned that dropping out randomly may reflect poorly on him. Quitting is a good backup option.
Honestly if it bug you that bad you need to drop out or just straight up say "I have proof someone is cheating and have tried to contact you ( The GM) without having to call them out. But them cheating is a problem for me and if it does not stop I will need to step out of this game"
How much fun are you having with the game?? And would you be willing to just deal, for the sake of the game and the fun your having?
I'm in a bunch of PbPs and there are a few id be willing to deal with problems and issues like this and other such potential annoyances, because the game is hella awesome and I really enjoy playing it along with the my fellow players.
And then there a couple where if I encountered something like this, and couldn't resolve it and keep playing(without ruining the game as well), I would just cut my losses and move on.
Heck, I've accidently deleted some of my posts via my cell phone(think pocket dialing, but on the internet) and it probably looks like I'm cheating, so keep that in mind as well.
suggest: invisible castle.com
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Seeker's suggestion is not a bad one. I could explain why I am quitting without calling anyone out specifically and quit that way.
This the martyr's way out. Doesn't solve the problem, doesn't lead to better behaviors, only you 'lose' in this.
If you're resigned to leaving, do so with screenshots and explain why it is unacceptable.
Give the player a chance to apologize and make a change. Give him the opportunity for redemption. Give him the opportunity to do better.
Find a way to create a positive out of all this. Spin this to make the community better.
This our community, our responsibility to keep it right.
-Pain
EDIT: This is after you've tried to talk to the person in private. I prefer private solutions to public ones. Posting on your OOC is mostly private, but not perfect.
Now he may be jacking his rolls up by putting modifiers in the wrong spot. The problem is that if he fixes and it gives him a higher score it is unfair to the others. He should just copy, and paste the codes he needs to notepad so it does not happen again.
As a real life example I had a guy whose math was not as good as he thought it was so he would try to do math in his head, and the numbers would be wrong.
I eventually had to "insist"* he write all of the possible modifiers down.
He took as me saying he was dumb. I just figured he was bad at math, and having to double check him got annoying.
*I refused to start the next session until he had them written down.
Now he may be jacking his rolls up by putting modifiers in the wrong spot. The problem is that if he fixes and it gives him a higher score it is unfair to the others. He should just copy, and paste the codes he needs to notepad so it does not happen again.
As a real life example I had a guy whose math was not as good as he thought it was so he would try to do math in his head, and the numbers would be wrong.
I eventually had to "insist"* he write all of the possible modifiers down.
He took as me saying he was dumb. I just figured he was bad at math, and having to double check him got annoying.
*I refused to start the next session until he had them written down.
That's not the issue,
re-read the first post.
Does he know he can edit the post and the dice rolls stay the same?
<Devils advocate mode>
Now he may be jacking his rolls up by putting modifiers in the wrong spot. The problem is that if he fixes and it gives him a higher score it is unfair to the others. He should just copy, and paste the codes he needs to notepad so it does not happen again.
As a real life example I had a guy whose math was not as good as he thought it was so he would try to do math in his head, and the numbers would be wrong.
I eventually had to "insist"* he write all of the possible modifiers down.
He took as me saying he was dumb. I just figured he was bad at math, and having to double check him got annoying.
*I refused to start the next session until he had them written down.
That's not the issue,
re-read the first post.
I understood the first post completely, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt also.
I can respect wraithstrike's desire to be devil's advocate in the situation, and give a benefit of a doubt. I'd suggest simply posting in the OOC thread about it, with the edit/delete clarification as well, and attempt to have it resolved. Hopefully the DM and player will handle themselves appropriately.
I suggest you may be overthinking the angles of the issue. It bothers you, so i personally vote for posting about it in the OOC thread.
Pointing out the difference between deleting a post and editing it might be a good idea, if a bit passive-aggressive.
At the very least it might clue him in to the fact that he's been caught.
Just say someone(s) has been doing it, and offer a solution without the slightest hint of accusation of cheating.
It all comes down to the integrity and spine of the DM. If he/she cares about the integrity of their game and the enjoyment of all of the players... then you should be able to raise the issue and leave it to the DM to resolve appropriately. Your friend should not have to worry about blow-back. And if the DM isn't clueless, he should already be aware that his buddy is cheating. As a DM, it is pretty hard to miss it.
Here's what I would do.
Post in the OOC something to the effect that you believe some cheating may be happening in the game and that it is effecting your enjoyment. You'd like to discuss it privately with the DM so as to avoid embarrassing anyone. Leave him your email address.
If he contacts you and you can discuss the matter openly, great. If he starts defending his friend, or rationalizing the behavior... then you have a harder choice to make.
If the DM ignores your valid concern and doesn't contact you - say after a week - then I'd repeat my request and give him that much more time. If you still get ignored then I say "publish and be damned". If he won't let you make your case privately then make it publicly in the OOC. His rules, his choice. It may not win you friends but I'd call it the right move and it gives the cheater a chance to amend his behavior OR lets him know that his ways have been noted and will likely be watched by other people. If you can't appeal to someone's better nature, you can alert others what to expect.
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I didn't know you could do that.
I've had a situation before where I began a post, previewed dice rolls so I knew what they would come up, then got called away to something else and had to shut down before I could actually post (I can't recall whether I cancelled the post or it just timed out).
When I later re-posted I'm almost certain the rolls came up exactly the same.
Yeah, I've accidentally navigated away from the page before and had to retype my post and ended up with the same roll. I tested it in the dice rolling thread, though, and deleting and re-posting does result in a different roll. It's either new behavior, or deleting the post and reposting is different than timing out/clicking away and having to recreate it.
There are several ways to cheat on the board - some subtle and some gross.
Senior Software Developer
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I am curious, what are the ways to cheat on our messageboards? (Email webmaster@paizo.com if you'd rather not make specific exploits public.)
I don't have the code in front of me at the moment, but I am reasonably sure that if you create and delete a post in a particular thread you will get the same rolls. At least that's what I remember how it's supposed to work.
Testing. I made this post, then deleted it, and am now re-posting. If the forum keeps the dice-rolls of a deleted post, they should come out as 11 - 14 - 7 - 9 - 20.
Edit: Which is not the case. If it should work that way, it doesn't any more.
(the dice-rolls are still kept when previewing and editing posts)
Something broke, and was exploited.
You have always been able to delete and repost. Copy and paste makes it pretty easy to do so.
Hi Gary,
I'll send you an email... not because I'm embarrassed to discuss the matter publicly but more because I don't want to give would-be cheaters a 'how to' guide.
I think you good Paizo folks have done what you can programmatically to solve the easiest cheat methods. As far as I know, you've closed the loophole where players could view rolls in preview mode, delete, and repeat until they got numbers they liked. A few months ago (with my DM hat on) I was doing a long write-up of a complicated battle result based on a preview. I had to put the writing down for about half a day and when I came back to it, my rolls were suddenly changed. I don't know if there was a system reboot or whatnot... but the numbers changed.
The cheats I've seen are not ones that I think you can eliminate with programming. It's going to take DMs and other players to police them in their own games.
Anyhow, I'll fire you off an email with the cheats. If you've got any follow-up questions, you can certainly ping me back privately.
It is my understanding that the dice queue is universal for the entire board, but I'm not entirely certain about that.
There have been times (I guess you could call this cheating) when I have rolled a d20, not liked the result, and waited until someone else posted a d20 roll before reposting mine. Usually what happens is the other person ends up with the d20 roll I had originally.
However, this doesn't happen often. Usually only after I roll less than 5 several times in a row do I consider waiting to repost.
I guess you could call this cheating
Just a guess?
What should I do?
Whatever you do, don't rat me out!
I mean "him". Don't rat him out.
I guess you could call this cheatingJust a guess?
Yes, there was one crucial moment when I didn't use my divine prerogative, though. In order to be "fair". I don't think the Whispering Tyrant ever let me or my faithful ever forget about it though, as it had somewhat lasting repercussions on my life, unlife, etc.
I am curious, what are the ways to cheat on our messageboards? (Email webmaster@paizo.com if you'd rather not make specific exploits public.)I don't have the code in front of me at the moment, but I am reasonably sure that if you create and delete a post in a particular thread you will get the same rolls. At least that's what I remember how it's supposed to work.
I only know of two ways to cheat: the method mentioned on this thread, and changing where you put rolls.
Example:1. Roll a 20 on a Perception check and a 10 on an attack roll.
2. Preview. See rolls.
3. Edit so that the 20 goes to the attack roll.
To the OP, I suggest you address the cheater. Quote his original post, and say something to the effect of, "Can you please take the original result?"
Simple, but if he has any integrity, he'll cut it out.
Alternatively, tell the GM there's a private matter to discuss and ask for an alternative method to contact him.
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Senior Software Developer
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OK, I've found the flaw where posting, getting some rolls, then deleting the post and creating a new post will get you new rolls. This will be fixed sometime today or tomorrow.
The other vulnerabilities relate to editing posts to change what you claim to be rolling for. I am not sure what we can do about those, apart from mercilessly mocking people for being so low as to actually cheat in a roleplaying game.
Out him publicly. Don't just email your GM, post your evidence in the OOC thread. Challenge the player to explain this behavior. As for group cohesion, the cheater should have thought of that before hand. Hopefully, with a public incident, the cheater won't play again.
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Senior Software Developer
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Wow, I didn't expect to get this sort of attention.
I think cheaters are engaging in corrosive behavior that erodes basic trust between people, and anything I can do to prevent cheating is a net good for society. Even if it is just play-by-posts in an obscure messageboard.
Wow, I didn't expect to get this sort of attention.I think cheaters are engaging in corrosive behavior that erodes basic trust between people, and anything I can do to prevent cheating is a net good for society. Even if it is just play-by-posts in an obscure messageboard.
Gary, you sexy minx, you are appealing to my Quixotic sense of justice. LOL!
Oooo Ooo. Name and shame. Your friend is lame.
Okay, so I may be a little more concerned for my personal amusement than giving good advice...
However, I think this is one of those instances where the result would be the same. Protect the community, not the cheater - you can’t do both.
Good Luck.
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Oooo Ooo. Name and shame. Your friend is lame.
Okay, so I may be a little more concerned for my personal amusement than giving good advice...
However, I think this is one of those instances where the result would be the same. Protect the community, not the cheater - you can’t do both.
Good Luck.
Just to clarify, his friend's not the cheater. His friend is just someone playing the game with both him and the cheater, and he doesn't want to rock the boat, so to speak.
Oooo Ooo. Name and shame. Your friend is lame.
Shut up! I..he is not!