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Just my 2 cents about preparing extracts. With my alchemist, I would prep extracts for at least one combat encounter (shield, cure lt/mod/serious wounds and other buffs if available).
Other extract slots would either remain open for use later, or I would allocate them for things that would be useful in a variety of situations.
Having said that the number of extracts you might prep for combat change between a bomber, melee build or a healing type. All depends on how you play it.
Spontaneous Healing is also good to have to give to your Simulacrums, which can save you money and time. Especially when you do not have a lab available. Although I would still make it green.
Explosive Missile is for delivering poison and bomb at the same time. Swift poison, move load, standard shoot, works great with a light crossbow, which is a simple weapon. Elves are great for bombers, and get bows for free. Its not red, maybe orange.
I really don't think that Bottled Ooze is as good as you say. Might be good to clog up a corridor, but I wouldn't give it green. If you want to summon, be a preservationist.
Wings can be doubled by a 3rd level extract, or a potion and a 2nd level extract. It looks cool, but buying winged boots is less expensive than a discovery.
Poison bomb + Immunity to poison = Blue. You even say that it is one of the most awful weapons in the arsenal earlier on, why isn't it blue? Force bomb+Stink bomb+Poison bomb is one awful combo.
Where is the Eternal Potion Discovery?
Boots of Speed is a better shoe, IMO, and Haste is not something that can be filled by a discovery. Level 6 should have something besides dispelling bombs that's blue, yes?
Poison Bomb=Blue. Fixed.
Bottled Ooze has been knocked down to green due to the frustratingly well-reasoned arguments by the gentleman from BioChem University. Let's not push it, shall we?
Eternal Potion - workin' on it.
Boots of Speed is a better shoe, IMO, and Haste is not something that can be filled by a discovery (until level 16). Level 6 should have something besides dispelling bombs that's blue, yes?
Poison Bomb=Blue. Fixed.
Bottled Ooze has been knocked down to green due to the frustratingly well-reasoned arguments by the gentleman from BioChem University. Let's not push it, shall we?
Eternal Potion - workin' on it.
Bottled Ooze makes a great way to assassinate someone.
"Here! Drink this!"
Stink bomb wasnt on your list. At least i didn't see it.
nice catch. Fixed.
Winged Boots of Speed are possible, you just add 50% to the price of one of them and have both. You can also have Wings of flying,Carpets(insert Carpet bomber joke here) and Brooms. Just don't think it's that worth it for a thing that anyone can do. I would say it was blue as long as you quit all your games before level 12.
For an explosive Missle shooter, since you only get the one shot, it may not be a bad idea to go with Kirin Strike, sure its got a steep build up, but adding double your Intelligence bonus to damage as a swift action could be nice. Especially after you get over a +10 Intelligence bonus.
The best part of the Missle thing is the range. Don't forget the poison added to this. And also there is the concept of being a bit of a sniper with this one. And I don't know if it is a misprint or not, but there is no asterix by the Explosive missile so you can add other effects to your bombs. Tanglefoot, Smoke bombs, Force bombs, Poison bombs, you can really have some fun at long range, it just takes a lot of planning to make effective use of it.
And I would also imagine that due to the enormous amounts of feats it would take to make it viable, a reasonable GM would allow Fast Bombs to work in conjunction with Explosive missle as well.
My opinions on your opinions on extracts forthcoming.
True Strike is a cool spell, but it isn't useful for bombs as you said. If you are color coding for bombers, it shouldn't be blue. It may not even be green.
Youthful appearance is still the same level because of the hour per level duration. Not that it makes it much more useful, I would only get it if the party planned some long term... I don't know... Still red.
Being that Barkskin stacks with mutagen, and you also reference it later, you might want to bump it to blue. It is a pretty awesome buff.
The Cat's grace and Fox's cunning are useful for maybe 3 levels. That is about it. It doesn't stack with your headbands and belts and the duration isn't that great.
Shadow Bomb Admixture isn't that great unless you have a bunch of casters in your party and you are fighting a bunch of melee types. At that point though smoke bombs might actually be better, especially with Echolocation.
Gaseous form is great as a delayed consumption to avoid death by grapple. Also able to escape through things and go through grates to use terrain in dungeons to your benefit. Did this once, it was cool, I recommend orange.
Monstrous Physique 2 I use to turn our Half-Orc Ranger into our Lamia Matriarch Ranger, or our Calikang Ranger, or our Derhii Ranger. Delayed consumption lets her do it as an immediate action. Not being the most dangerous thing on the battlefield is good for the bomber too. Of course, only good for infusions. Of course, the Lamia Matriarch has swim and climb speeds of 60, which is nothing to sneeze at. I would put it at situational at best, orange.
The good thing about the delayed consumption extract is that if you do it right, it doesnt take up a slot today. It takes up a slot Yesterday. Or 12 Days ago if you are lucky. And then it also does it as an immediate action. Congratulations, you have just discovered "quicken spontaneous extract" levels 1-3. Following a non combat day, you can do it 3 times a day by level 13 when you get it. This is a pretty good deal.
Languid Bomb Admixture doesn't have the caveat that stops multiple bombs from stacking like some other abilities do. Just sayin...
All the rest seem fine.
Poison's just fine, and I have nothing against using Alchemists that try to get a little mileage out of their poison abilities. Just as long as it sticks to a relatively minimal amount of gold and doesn't eat up any feats or discoveries. The only poison discovery that I think is worth a darn is the Convert Poison one, and even that one is going to be pretty circumstantial. Personally I think all the poison discoveries could be included under an Alchemist-only Craft Alchemy check with jumbo DCs (which would go a ways toward redeeming Crafter's Fortune).
True Strike is a cool spell, but it isn't useful for bombs as you said. If you are color coding for bombers, it shouldn't be blue. It may not even be green.
Youthful appearance is still the same level because of the hour per level duration. Not that it makes it much more useful, I would only get it if the party planned some long term... I don't know... Still red.
Being that Barkskin stacks with mutagen, and you also reference it later, you might want to bump it to blue. It is a pretty awesome buff.
The Cat's grace and Fox's cunning are useful for maybe 3 levels. That is about it. It doesn't stack with your headbands and belts and the duration isn't that great.
Shadow Bomb Admixture isn't that great unless you have a bunch of casters in your party and you are fighting a bunch of melee types. At that point though smoke bombs might actually be better, especially with Echolocation.
Gaseous form is great as a delayed consumption to avoid death by grapple. Also able to escape through things and go through grates to use terrain in dungeons to your benefit. Did this once, it was cool, I recommend orange.
Monstrous Physique 2 I use to turn our Half-Orc Ranger into our Lamia Matriarch Ranger, or our Calikang Ranger, or our Derhii Ranger. Delayed consumption lets her do it as an immediate action. Not being the most dangerous thing on the battlefield is good for the bomber too. Of course, only good for infusions. Of course, the Lamia Matriarch has swim and climb speeds of 60, which is nothing to sneeze at. I would put it at situational at best, orange.
The good thing about the delayed consumption extract is that if you do it right, it doesnt take up a slot today. It takes up a slot Yesterday. Or 12 Days ago if you are lucky. And then it also does it as an immediate action. Congratulations, you have just discovered "quicken spontaneous extract" levels 1-3. Following a non combat day, you can do it 3 times a day by level 13 when you get it. This is a pretty good deal.
Languid...
Re: Gaseous Form and Monstrous Physique -
All extracts have their great uses in the right circumstances for the right member of the party. Blistering Invective is great for your bard or half-orc barbarian and Kinetic Reverberation is great for your tank. Given the Infused Alchemist's backup role as a walking swiss-army knife, it becomes virtually impossible to rank them. Since an Infusing Alchemist has no such thing as "Personal Spells", nothing's going to buzz red as badly as a Treantmonk Wizard Spell that's Personal and stinks for the wizard. But I still have to rank them.
The extract section will have an intro that explains that extracts are inherently more valuable than spells because of the way that extracts work. Blue and Green should mostly be good for Alchemists first, and they'll probably be good for someone in the party, too. Alchemist-specific extracts that are good shouldn't lose points for their specificity; they should gain points because they're unique and there's no chance of overlap with the casters in your party.
That's kind of how I rated it. Make sense?
I agree with this. The only real benefit they have past that point is functioning in AMZ, and that's a really specific use of them. Again, eventually you don't even need to burn money on a passive flight ability since you get Overland Flight anyway.
I am with you there.
For an explosive Missle shooter, since you only get the one shot, it may not be a bad idea to go with Kirin Strike, sure its got a steep build up, but adding double your Intelligence bonus to damage as a swift action could be nice. Especially after you get over a +10 Intelligence bonus.
It eats your Swift action though - it's not a terrible trade most of the time, but it doesn't work with Alchemical Weapon until level 16 (which just forces a Tanglefoot Bag save or suck every time, but still). Even with it though, you're never going to touch a Bomber in raw damage, simply because they benefit from multiple attacks.
What? It works at level nine. At level nine, my Alchemist had a +8 to his intelligence modifer. A Cognogen would have brought it up to +10. A +20 to damage isn't much to sneeze at. Especially if you do something like shot on the run. An elf with a bow could really have some fun ducking in and out of cover with a build like this.
Poison is really quite blah to me.
Poisons are for casters or anyone else with a low fort save and the real trick is when you start stacking them. A hasted rapid shot Alchemist at level 8 can deliver up to 4 doses of poison with a full attack, the next round he can do it again. At that point (assuming they all hit) the DC of the poison is now +14 what it was before they can make a second save. That's why the DC's are low. For more fun, hand the poison to everyone in the party and pepper the BBEG with enough doses to kill him faster than he can say "I wish I had delay poison memorized this morning." For more fun, add a poison bomb to a arrow or bolt tipped with Wyvern poison to double down on their Con penalties.
Sure, that's all fine. By and large I agreed with you, I just shared with you my experience and where it differed with your ranking. What did you think of the other points I made?
Sure, that's all fine. By and large I agreed with you, I just shared with you my experience and where it differed with your ranking. What did you think of the other points I made?
No problem.
I think Delayed Gaseous Form as a free get-out-of-grapple is a brilliant move. It's a bit circumstantial, though. Still, grapple is an Alchemist's nightmare, and I'll consider upgrading it. Preventative is vastly superior to damage control.
Fox's Cunning and Cat's Grace get extra points because they work as potions. If your point is that gear eventually makes them obsolete, I answer
a)You can say that about most lower level spells. I operate from the assumption that the reader is referring to the guide as said reader levels up. When an extract gets special privilege because of longevity (Anticipate Peril) or because of some combination with a higher level power/extract (Protection from Energy+Detonate), I make special note of it.
b)Enhancement buffs stack with mutagens. Meaning your 4th level Alchemist can rock a +8 to Dex or a +4 to both Int and Dex and your Mindchemist can rock a whopping +8 to Intel with two standard actions (one if he's got the Mutagen running already, which is likely). Enhancement gear isn't growing on trees at 4th level. Even when it does become available, Alchy won't be able to afford it all at once.
Shadow Bomb is the 2nd level Admixture. For that level, I don't think it's terrible. People can run away from Smoke, but they can't escape that clingy shadow effect. Also, because it's an admixture, it stacks with every bomb discovery (including smoke bombs). Yes, they get concealment, but this shouldn't protect them from area attacks (splash damage) from you or your wizard. Is it circumstantial? Maybe. I didn't give it the blue, but it seemed a lot better for its level than the viper bomb one. I also don't think "we're fighting a bunch of melee types" is a rare circumstance for 4-6.
Yeah, Barkskin stacks with Mutagen, but you already get that Nat Armor bonus from Mutagen... I'll think about it. I guess I have an aversion to dedicated AC buffs, since tanking isn't the Alchemist's job. If it was more than +2 at level 4, I'd give it blue. It gets extra points for staying relevant at higher levels, but I'm having trouble rating it above green when it's in the company of Alchemical Allocation, Cat's Grace (also a +2 AC at that level, as well as +2 to hit, reflex, stealth, acro, many other skills), Fox's Cunning, and Invisibility.
Did I reference it later? Even if I did, Alchemical Allocation, at the very least, is something you'll have a use for up to level 20, which is not something I can safely say for Barkskin. Will I be using basic Invisibility at 20? No, but I'm pretty sure that Invis did more to keep me alive back at levels 4-6 than Barkskin did. I can also see myself still using Fox's Cunning (Eternalized) at level 16+ and using the money I saved on that headband for Rods of Cancellation or the Ring of Spell Turning fund.
"What? It works at level nine. At level nine, my Alchemist had a +8 to his intelligence modifer. A Cognogen would have brought it up to +10. A +20 to damage isn't much to sneeze at. Especially if you do something like shot on the run. An elf with a bow could really have some fun ducking in and out of cover with a build like this. "
I meant that Alchemical Weapon takes a Swift Action until you hit level 16. Then I looked it up and realized it's actually level 15 >.>. Also, Elf + Dodge + Mobility + Shot on the Run + Improved Unarmed Strike + Kiren Strike is crazy feat intensive. Yeah, it might be worth it, but you're giving up quite a bit to get there.
Just in terms of raw damage I don't think the build can compete against a full attacking Bomber. I'll try and math stuff out tomorrow night when I'm not doing stuff.
Still not buying the Posions. Look, if they're not Poison Immune and have low Fort why aren't you just using Stink Bomb (targeting a Grid intersection so they're in the AOE)? You physically can't miss the intersection (go go AC5!), and the save DC of Stink Bomb is significantly higher than comparable poisons at this point. A Hasted Rapid Shot Alchemist would be better off going Tanglefoot Bomb (prevents nonmagical flight, forces casting concentration checks, lowers touch AC, stops charges) --> Stink Bomb (targeting them) --> Stink Bomb (targeting them) --> Stink Bomb (targeting the grid intersection so they're in the AOE, ensuring they're in the Cloud). Also, hitting Touch AC >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hitting actual AC on iteratives. You're looking at like a +5 on you lower iteratives assuming Mutagen (Dex) and Heroism are up, and CR8 Monsters are out of that range unless you're rolling nat20s. On the other hand, half of the CR8 things have touch ACs of under 15, giving a Bomber's iteratives a 50/50 shot of working. This also does significantly more damage since each bomb should be hitting for ~5d6+10 and doesn't cost you money.
Why not use a Stink Bomb? Off the top of my head, because you'll nauseate your melee guys that are flanking the baddie. A tanglefoot bomb is still a bomb and your buddies will take the splash damage and the gluey effect. A Confusion bomb has a 50/50 chance of the monster hitting your buddies anyway. A dispelling bomb might be good, but what if it's a big monster that can't be dispelled?
Your hasted Rapid Shot Alchemist can get off several shots with his bow (assuming he's an elf) or repeating crossbow (assuming he has a delayed Bestow Weapon Proficiency). It's only a swift action to apply that poison after all. The more shots, the more Fortitude saves (or the higher the DC, depending on how your DM wants to play it).
Is this going to be a rare circumstance? Maybe. But what did it cost you? If you followed the guide, you didn't waste any feats or discoveries on it.
And actually, the more likely circumstance is that you're level 2 and you don't have a bajillion discoveries. You just have Infusion. If this is a rough day/boss battle, you might even be out of bombs.
GP isn't the only way to get poisons. A little downtime/nighttime watch in a wilderness campaign? The Alchemist can use a couple of survival rolls and see if there's any useful poison growing about. Some DMs will say no; I think most will probably admire your ingenuity, roll some dice, and tell you what you find (or don't find). And if you're actively looking often, DMs will reward you with some Easter eggs for your trouble at some point.
DMs often like to try and Poison their PCs; this means you can usually pick it up for free after you've won the battle. Drow campaigns, for example, will be full of Drow Poison. Low DC, but if you fail it, you drop, and that's one less bad guy to worry about.
Actually, the best use of Poison for an Alchemist is to give it to his buddies. Do the Ranger a favor and Poison his arrows. Now he's forcing a Fortitude Save (or more likely, several) in addition to his bazillion damage per turn. This (Con damage from Blue Whinis that the Alchemist found in the Woods because I asked him to before we went strolling into the dragon's cave) is how my 2nd level Ranger dropped her very first dragon in my first Pathfinder campaign. Same goes for the rogue's arrows or daggers. I don't think there are rules for poison spoiling, so those poisoned weapons stay poisoned indefinitely, and they eat up exactly zero actions when your allies want to use them.
Like you said, every little bit of buff or edge you can give your allies helps...
Why not use a Stink Bomb? Off the top of my head, because you'll nauseate your melee guys that are flanking the baddie. A tanglefoot bomb is still a bomb and your buddies will take the splash damage and the gluey effect. A Confusion bomb has a 50/50 chance of the monster hitting your buddies anyway. A dispelling bomb might be good, but what if it's a big monster that can't be dispelled?So take Precise Bombs? Again, I'm making the assumption that a Bomber actually is taking the core Bombing talents in all of my examples. I didn't even list Confusion Bomb in that example because we were talking about hard shut down (which C. Bomb isn't, even if it's amazing) against enemies with low Fort saves, who are super vulnerable to Stink Bomb.
Your hasted Rapid Shot Alchemist can get off several shots with his bow (assuming he's an elf) or repeating crossbow (assuming he has a delayed Bestow Weapon Proficiency). It's only a swift action to apply that poison after all. The more shots, the more Fortitude saves (or the higher the DC, depending on how your DM wants to play it).Yeah, but you still physically need to hit the target. Again, I don't have time right now, but if you go look through a CR listing you'll notice that Touch AC is something like 9 or more less than actual AC on your typical monster at this point. Stacking Poisons increases the save DC going by RAW. Also you really don't do very much damage with the Bow compared to the Bombs. Literally the only advantages are that you don't waste bombs/day and that you have an increased range (and it's still harder to hit with the Bow unless you're 3+ range increments away with it).
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Is this going to be a rare circumstance? Maybe. But what did it cost you? If you followed the guide, you didn't waste any feats or discoveries on it.And actually, the more likely circumstance is that you're level 2 and you don't have a bajillion discoveries. You just have Infusion. If this is a
Precise Bombs refers to Splash Damage. Stink Bomb and the other clouding bombs "fill an area equal to twice the bomb's splash radius". RAW, I don't think Precise Bomb keeps fumes out of the bad squares. Also, if you're taking Infusion (your #1 Gold Star can't-do-without) and Precise, you can't have the Stink Bombs til at least level 5. And I don't think "two of your melee guys are flanking the bad guy" is a rare circumstance for five levels of play (four, if you take into consideration that you don't even get Poison Use til 2).
How is it Alchemist specific? Because the Alchemist has 5 bits of class features related to poison, including two very important ones: immunity and use. The level 2 Alchemist has no chance of poisoning himself, something no other character will share (except a drow or Poisoning Rogue, and your party is kind of wacky if you have either of those).
Why are you so hung up on WBL? If it bothers you, the party can chip in for it, just like the party can chip in for the potions that you're cranking out.
Why are you so opposed to using something that costs so little and gives your party an edge, however small? If every shot the Ranger/Rogue makes means the DM has to roll a Fortitude save, that's a lot of chances for DM to roll a 1. Do I think it's worth Feats and Discoveries? No. Worth a little fun RP, maybe a little gold? Hell yes. And knockout Poisons are a great way to disable people you need to capture and Animal NPCs that your druid (or worse, the meanie NPC Druid that roams the woods) don't want killed.
I really feel like I must stress the inefficiency of them.
You say "Why are you so opposed to using something that costs so little and gives your party an edge, however small?"
The answer is that I don't feel like the costs outweigh the benefits. WBL is something you have to assume a group is using because it's the default of the setting. What are these good knockout poisons you keep talking about? Drow Poison has a save DC of 14, Blue Whinnis has a save DC of 14 (and takes multiple rounds to KO them), and Dhabba Spittle has a DC of 12. There aren't any other Injury or Contact poisons that disable people that doesn't have significant onset times. Every single one of those poisons has a lower save DC than Bombs do starting at level one - AND BOMBS DON'T EAT MONEY.
Meh.
Added a brief summary of roles, both out of combat and in combat.
Link for Extracts section.
Link for Discoveries section.
I'm trying to rate the races, and it's a bit tough. I could use input from the room. So far Human and Half-Orc get the blue, Half-Elf and Elf get the green. The rest...
Dwarf - dwarf gets no INT or DEX bonus, but the bonuses he gets are pretty good. Wisdom helps out his lousy Will save and Con helps keep him alive (and Alchemists need it more than Wizards). Cha penalty? Who cares?
If we give him an axe/hammer and sink a couple of feats into Armor training, I think we have a half-decent switch hitter, since the armor does nothing to hurt his bombs or extracts. His go-to buffs are range-boosters like Far Shot and Bomber's Eye. Isn't there a feat for increasing the range of thrown weapons? And with his poison resistance, he can probably afford to trade Hardy in for Magic Resistance or maybe Stubborn. The armor makes lemonade out of his slow speed. I'm kind of loathe to give it the orange, since this seems like the ideal race for your literal, armored and explosive-shooting tank, and he doesn't need a ton of strength to do it. Thoughts?
Gnome - No dex or Int bonus, and the Con is okay but the Charisma sucks. Strength penalty and slow speed suck because he can't carry things like a dwarf. Even with the small bonuses, it feels like orange bordering on red, except that the APG gives gnomes all this extra junk. Extra bombs per day? Fire bombs are treated as one level higher? I'm honestly not sure how useful this is over the long run. Has anyone played a Gnome Alchemist? Can you relate your experience?
Halfling - Small=good. Slow=bad. Dex bonus is good, Cha is almost useless, and Con penalty sucks. No alternate favored class features, almost no helpful alternate racials. I don't know - red?
The armor makes lemonade out of his slow speed.
The Wings discovery will give even a Dwarf a decent speed.
But I can't say anything good about the Small races. Which is a pity, really.
Halflings have a Str penalty, not a Con penalty.
Halflings have a Str penalty, not a Con penalty.
I... screwed that up, I guess. Okay, so I guess Halfling gets the Orange.
Okay, what about Elf Alchemists? -2 Con seems like a lot to get over, but they have super good Weapon Proficiencies (firing a bow overlaps great with Rapid Shot and Fast Bombs), decent immunities, and even good melee proficiencies. Longsword is okay for a Strength Mutagen Alchemist, Rapier + Weapon Finesse is even better for a Dex Mutagen boosting guy. Compare to a human. Would you rate this green or blue?
Half-Elf is great, but doesn't get the bonus feat or ferocity that either Human or Half-Orc get. Is Dual-Minded enough to make up for Half-Orc ferocity?
Halflings have a Str penalty, not a Con penalty.I... screwed that up, I guess. Okay, so I guess Halfling gets the Orange.
Okay, what about Elf Alchemists? -2 Con seems like a lot to get over, but they have super good Weapon Proficiencies (firing a bow overlaps great with Rapid Shot and Fast Bombs), decent immunities, and even good melee proficiencies. Longsword is okay for a Strength Mutagen Alchemist, Rapier + Weapon Finesse is even better for a Dex Mutagen boosting guy. Compare to a human. Would you rate this green or blue?
Half-Elf is great, but doesn't get the bonus feat or ferocity that either Human or Half-Orc get. Is Dual-Minded enough to make up for Half-Orc ferocity?
I was thinking about making an elf alchemist. Not so sure bows will be that useful with the penalty to strength cognatgen provides though. For an elf mindchemist that wants knowledge they could pick up breadth of expirence but not sure it is worth it to get +2 and can use knowledge skills untrained with their high int modifier. Bows will be useful agianst stuff with energy resistence though.
The ability scores of Elves put them on an equal footing with Humans - I'd rate Dex and Con pretty much equally important. They got nice racial abilities, but it's hard to beat the versatility of the Human ones. What the Humans have going for them are their alternatives: a proper Favored Class bonus, Heart of the Wilderness, Eye for Talent...
Humans are the overall superior choice, but the difference isn't that big.
As for the Half-Elf's Dual Minded ability, I'd say the Alchemist desperately needs any boon to his Will Save. But it can't beat the combination of Ferocity and a bonus to Bomb damage.
an elf mindchemist that wants knowledge they could pick up breadth of expirence but not sure it is worth it to get +2 and can use knowledge skills untrained with their high int modifier.
If you can spare the feats, Kirin Strike has some nice synergy.
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Vestigial arm have one other use besides being a "cup holder for potion", which is to hold a shield (this should also be true for the tentacle discovery).
This will obviously help if you are suffering from a low AC and Sean K. Reynolds has confirmed that this is in fact legal.
I don't know if this makes vestigial arm useful enough for a green colour coding, but I think it is worth noting in the guide.
Combine it with a Heavy Darkwood Shield and you have +2 AC at a mere 257gp.
The armor makes lemonade out of his slow speed.The Wings discovery will give even a Dwarf a decent speed.
But I can't say anything good about the Small races. Which is a pity, really.
Yeah, but he has to get through five levels without them, and he can start with Medium Armor and have Heavy by level 3. Expeditious Retreat helps, too.
I don't suppose two extra arms could make the Alchemist a knuckle-walking quadruped?