If I get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat and choose Sawtooth Sabre, can I also gain the benefit of using Weapon Finesse for it? Herolab is giving me my DEX bonus to hit with using that weapon. My GM says that's incorrect, I can only gain the benefit of it being a "light" weapon for Two Hand Fighting thanks to the Exotic Feat. The Weapon Finesse Feat should not apply. Thoughts?
If I get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat and choose Sawtooth Sabre, can I also gain the benefit of using Weapon Finesse for it?
Which version of the weapon are you using?
IIRC one of the newer books listed the Sawtooth saber as being light ONLY for TWF. James says it's OK to use whichever version you want, though.
If I get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat and choose Sawtooth Sabre, can I also gain the benefit of using Weapon Finesse for it?Which version of the weapon are you using?
IIRC one of the newer books listed the Sawtooth saber as being light ONLY for TWF. James says it's OK to use whichever version you want, though.
Well I'm using the Pathfinder rules, and I have most of the add-ons to Herolab so I'm assuming the weapon is the most recent version. Who is James?
|
Well I'm using the Pathfinder rules, and I have most of the add-ons to Herolab so I'm assuming the weapon is the most recent version. Who is James?If I get the Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat and choose Sawtooth Sabre, can I also gain the benefit of using Weapon Finesse for it?Which version of the weapon are you using?
IIRC one of the newer books listed the Sawtooth saber as being light ONLY for TWF. James says it's OK to use whichever version you want, though.
one of the games devs
Does anyone have a link to where James said that either works? Just so I can run it by my GM. :)
It's one of the ones I made sure to wishlist:
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz3n40?A-Red-Mantis-Dilemma#6
After reading that thread, he doesn't make any mention about letting Weapon Finesse to be used. Unless Im missing it...
that thread started with:
#1 The Sawtooth Saber- Casually reading through the weapons section, I spied The RMA's favored weapon and noticed that it weapon finesse no longer worked with it
By the rules(unless I missed the errata) it is only finessable when TWF'ing.
Description: A sawtooth sabre may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting—the sabre remains classified as a one-handed melee weapon for all other purposes.
that thread started with:
#1 The Sawtooth Saber- Casually reading through the weapons section, I spied The RMA's favored weapon and noticed that it weapon finesse no longer worked with it
There is no such statement that says you can finesse if you are not TWF'ing.
James response to that statement is:
These are legitimate complaints... but the Red Mantis Assassin is a VERY specialized character. There's not a lot of wiggle room with this class to do anything other than be a two-weapon fighter. That's by design. If you want to do something else with a member of the Red Mantis, though... you don't HAVE to use this prestige class. The Red Mantis has plenty of minions and members who don't have levels in this class, who also take part in the cult just as much. Levels in "Red Mantis Assassin" are not a requirement to be part of the Red Mantis.
Well I'm using the Pathfinder rules, and I have most of the add-ons to Herolab so I'm assuming the weapon is the most recent version.
Which book did you get the weapon from? If you're using some computer program thing, which book did it get the weapon from?
We need to know the source to know the rules.
Source Adventurer's Armory 18, Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide 13, Pathfinder Campaign Setting 210
DescriptionThis is the signature weapon of the notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.
vs
The signature weapons of the notorious Red Mantis, sawtooth sabres are cruelly efficient weapons. Their curved, serrated blades can cause deep wounds.Description: A sawtooth sabre may be used as a Martial Weapon (in which case it functions as a longsword), but if you have the feat Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre), you treat the weapon as if it were a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting—the sabre remains classified as a one-handed melee weapon for all other purposes.
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Pathfinder Campaign Setting: The Inner Sea World Guide
So if you're using the version from the AA, CotCTPG, or PCS, it says it's a light weapon.
If you're using the version from the inner sea world guide, then it says it's only light for purposes of TWF penalties.
And one more thing. If you like how sawtooth sabres used to work—that the exotic weapon proficiency allows you to treat it as a light weapon... do it. Trust me, it won't hurt your game.
I think we over-nerfed weapons (especially exotic weapons) as it stands. But when it comes to rules decisions... those aren't mine alone to make.
Good question. I have both the Adventurer Armory and the Inner Sea World Guide. When I configured two characters, one with each book, the Inner Sea World wouldn't give me the bonus but the Adventurer Armory would. Have them both active for one character would let me use the Weapon Finesse feat.
So which one takes precedence?!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the relevant quote is this one from Chavamanda's link:
And one more thing. If you like how sawtooth sabres used to work—that the exotic weapon proficiency allows you to treat it as a light weapon... do it. Trust me, it won't hurt your game.
I think we over-nerfed weapons (especially exotic weapons) as it stands. But when it comes to rules decisions... those aren't mine alone to make.
That last comment is a really important thing to keep in mind. It's a little paradoxical that James Jacobs has the greatest presence on the rules boards, but his responses are actually less definitive than that would indicate. James is Creative Director, with authority over the story of Pathfinder, more than the mechanics. Sean Reynolds and Jason Bulmahn are Developers, which is why you'll see them quoted in the product FAQ and Updates. James is often giving advice based what he'd do at his table, not expressing a mandate.
In this case he's reiterating the fact that tables can use the rules as they like, and just observing that moding the rule back to a previous version in this case won't break the game.
To the OP, if that GM doesn't wish to do that, it's certainly likewise his perogative not to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The newest one takes precedence, the AA is famously messy (probably Paizo's biggest foul-up) and the pther sources are 3.5 era stuff.
So, Inner Sea World Guide is the source HeroLab uses, and they are correct to do so.
Actually, HeroLabs has two versions of the sawtooth sabre.
The one from Inner Sea World guide AND the the one from the earlier versions.
I know, because I asked them to not get rid of the old version because there are many of us who are still using the Adventurer's Armory version since that is the most updated non world specific ruleset.
|
I believe the Inner Sea World guide is the more versatile (and thus superior) model.
If you go by that definition you should be able to receive a +50% Power Attack and 1.5x STR bonus while fighting with it in two hands, and still enjoy the benefits of Weapon Finesse while two-Weapon fighting - which is what you want to be doing with a Sawtooth Sabre if you're a high DEX rogue...
If you treat it as a 'light weapon' (presumably "All of the time") you would not be able to benefit as much from Power Attack or swinging it 2 handed.
Umm... No.
The Inner Sea World guide rules mean it only counts as a light weapon for the purpose of using it in your off-hand for two-weapon fighting (so you have the light weapon penalty instead of the one-handed weapon penalty), not for weapon finesse.
|
|
Doesn't Weapon Finesse work for light weapons though?
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
So Weapon Finesse applies to a Sawtooth Sabre when you're two weapon fighting with it. Which is what you want to be doing if you're a high DEX Rogue, which is an ideal character to be choosing Weapon Finesse.
I realize that Weapon Finesse would not apply if you are only using 1 of them. But if you are only weilding 1 of them, do it in two hands so you get a 3:1 ratio with Power Attack and +1.5 STR bonus. If your ATT mod suffers a bit; Charge!
So Weapon Finesse applies to a Sawtooth Sabre when you're two weapon fighting with it.
I'm pretty sure that they mean the ISWGSS is treated as a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting penalties only. It doesn't make any sense for Weapon Finesse to suddenly not apply if you can't make a full attack.
|
|
So Weapon Finesse applies to a Sawtooth Sabre when you're two weapon fighting with it.I'm pretty sure that they mean the ISWGSS is treated as a light weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting penalties only. It doesn't make any sense for Weapon Finesse to suddenly not apply if you can't make a full attack.
Having just re-read it I think you may be right - which is still good news for the character I had in mind, but may be bad news for folks hoping to use Weapon Finesse.
Hadn't seen the ISWG version yet; I'd call that a buff, not a nerf. It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.x -- for one Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you get the ability to effectively double-wield longswords, getting the benefits of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. with both and only sacrificing strength bonus on the one in your off hand. So it's not a finesse weapon, big deal; there are plenty of other weapons for which you can apply Weapon Finesse.
|
|
Hadn't seen the ISWG version yet; I'd call that a buff, not a nerf. It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.x -- for one Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you get the ability to effectively double-wield longswords, getting the benefits of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. with both and only sacrificing strength bonus on the one in your off hand. So it's not a finesse weapon, big deal; there are plenty of other weapons for which you can apply Weapon Finesse.
but its a "waste" of a high dex "needed to effectively twf) to not weapon finesse, and hard to do under a point buy (except rangers who can twf for free)
Hadn't seen the ISWG version yet; I'd call that a buff, not a nerf. It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.x -- for one Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you get the ability to effectively double-wield longswords, getting the benefits of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. with both and only sacrificing strength bonus on the one in your off hand. So it's not a finesse weapon, big deal; there are plenty of other weapons for which you can apply Weapon Finesse.but its a "waste" of a high dex "needed to effectively twf) to not weapon finesse, and hard to do under a point buy (except rangers who can twf for free)
This is more an issue with TWF than with Saw-tooth sabers though TWF forces a need for high Dex for characters who may not inherently want it but need the feats to have the flavor they want.
|
Hadn't seen the ISWG version yet; I'd call that a buff, not a nerf. It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.x -- for one Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, you get the ability to effectively double-wield longswords, getting the benefits of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, etc. with both and only sacrificing strength bonus on the one in your off hand. So it's not a finesse weapon, big deal; there are plenty of other weapons for which you can apply Weapon Finesse.but its a "waste" of a high dex "needed to effectively twf) to not weapon finesse, and hard to do under a point buy (except rangers who can twf for free)
It's not meant to be a 'waste' though, it's meant to be a balancing factor in the game.
Complaining that a powerful buff could be even more powerful is a bit rich.
It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.x
How is that better than a double weapon? Main is one-handed, off is light. All feats apply to the whole thing. And with a double weapon you can two-hand it if you only get one attack.
|
|
It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.xHow is that better than a double weapon? Main is one-handed, off is light. All feats apply to the whole thing. And with a double weapon you can two-hand it if you only get one attack.
30gp cheaper, 6lbs less in weight.
And you are more responsive - you can fight one-handed if circumstances require it, in a way that you cannot with a double weapon.
So, it renders the double-sword redundant:
cheaper
lighter
more adaptable
cooler
|
|
The build I'm using is going to eventually be Ranger 6/Rogue 14. Ranger Arcetype = Guide, Rogue Arcetypes = Scout & Sniper.
Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms class feature = Sawtooth Sabre proficiency).
Built as a "Switch Hitter" Ranger (Thanx Treantmonk!). Rapid shot & Improved Precise shot for combat feats at 2nd & 6th. Two handing a sawtooth sabre at this point.
As soon as I take my 1st Rogue level I will pick up Two-Weapon fighting and go from there. Will use Sniper & Scout arcetypes to provide good tactical synergy with Quickdraw feat: Fight from Range, Charge into melee swinging 2 handed. Assume flank, free action to draw 2nd sabre and now start Two-Weapon fighting.
Build will end up with 1 more BAB then a Rogue 20 and thus another iterative attack (and possibly another off-hand attack). Will get to add sneak attack damage when charging & skirmishing.
Ranger's focus +4 2/day will offset Power Attack 'to hit' penalty for a combined 3:1 return on damage with the benefit of effectively getting to add 2 x Sneak Attack damage.
It's been fun to play a Switch Hitting Ranger thus far and looking forward to adding 2 weapon fighting to the mix - all made viable by the Sawtooth Sabre from ISWG.
It means you can wield two of the things, and get your full strength bonus and full benefit of Power Attack with the one in your dominant hand. That might just make the most powerful two-weapon fighting build from a major publisher in the history of 3.xHow is that better than a double weapon? Main is one-handed, off is light. All feats apply to the whole thing. And with a double weapon you can two-hand it if you only get one attack.
30gp cheaper, 6lbs less in weight.
And you are more responsive - you can fight one-handed if circumstances require it, in a way that you cannot with a double weapon.
So, it renders the double-sword redundant:
cheaper
lighter
more adaptable
cooler
Not to mention that it's unclear from the wording whether Double Slice works with a double weapon -- as a GM, I'd say no -- and pretty clear that Two-Weapon Rend doesn't work, since you can't strike with both ends of a double weapon simultaneously. You can still leave on sabre in its scabbard and strike two-handed with the other, if you want to max out your Strength and Power Attack bonuses for a single attack.