Is it merely tradition, or is it because of balancing issues?
A tradition based on percieved balancing issues. When sorcerors were created it was though that they would be dramatically more powerful then wizards due to the flexibility of spontaneous casting. Turns out that was probably not the case, but the difference in spell progression has remained.
due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.
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Is it merely tradition, or is it because of balancing issues?
It's about balance of a sort, but not the sort that should be used to create classes.
The problem comes because, for totally casual players, it really is more powerful. To a large group of people, Fireball is the "best" 3rd level spell, and Cone of Cold is the "best" 5th. Who needs Color Spray when there's Magic Missile! I mean, damn, that thing can't miss!
For these sorts of players, if they're wizards, they are going to fill up their slots accordingly--they'll have too many Fireballs prepared to fight a fire resistant enemy effectively. "We need to fly across that chasm!" "I can't, sorry, all I have left are Lightning Bolts!"
This stuff routinely happens, believe it or not, and for them, having only a handful of spells that you can use freely (as long as you choose them well) is really powerful. Plus, don't forget that they can cast more spells per day, too.
The problem comes when you get to the next tier of players--the ones who really think about these things (and the ones most likely to play a Wizard over a Sorcerer anyway). They can potentially cast ANY spell, and they realize that this is far more valuable than being able to blast more freely.
I'm probably preaching to the choir about all the stuff a Wizard can do with his versatile spellbook that a Sorcerer just can't afford to do, so I won't go into detail on that.
Long story short:
Spontaneous casting is more powerful for a "casual" player, but they are rarely concerned with power anyway. Meanwhile, it's not more powerful (and might even be weaker) to the sorts that actually get concerned with balance. It kind of goes to show you who they write these games for.
due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.
What about the Oracle? What's the balancing factor there? The Oracle doesn't have a similar ability (to my knowledge) yet she's put in the same boat as the sorcerer.
What about the Oracle? What's the balancing factor there? The Oracle doesn't have a similar ability (to my knowledge) yet she's put in the same boat as the sorcerer.due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.
fluff wise? i would say that the oracle is only given so much leeway due to that the gods chose her to be an oracle. thus they put limitations on what she can cast. where as a sorcerer can tap into the raw essense of magic that pervades through his blood and is a natural unit of the world, not divied out by some deity.
mechanics wise? oracle gets cure spells for free (or inflict) which allows them to take something else instead. sorcerers dont have that, other than bloodline spells.
What about the Oracle? What's the balancing factor there? The Oracle doesn't have a similar ability (to my knowledge) yet she's put in the same boat as the sorcerer.due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.fluff wise? i would say that the oracle is only given so much leeway due to that the gods chose her to be an oracle. thus they put limitations on what she can cast. where as a sorcerer can tap into the raw essense of magic that pervades through his blood and is a natural unit of the world, not divied out by some deity.
mechanics wise? oracle gets cure spells for free (or inflict) which allows them to take something else instead. sorcerers dont have that, other than bloodline spells.
But clerics - barring archetypes or class alternatives - do not need to prepare cure spells to use them. Clerics also have access to their entire list every day, while oracles are limited to the spells they pick.
Mechanics-wise, I would say that is a weak balancing factor. Yes, the oracle gets free spells - but the class they're being balanced against doesn't have to prepare said spells and can cast them in pretty much the same way.
Well sorcerers in PF do get the bloodline powers etc to make up for it. They didn't have that in 3.5.
But for that wizards can get a bonded object, which gives them limited spontanous casting, and the arcane schools, which also gives them some sort of abilities - I think the bloodline stuff is better though, and bonus feats.
I don't really think the bloodline powers are that much better than all the wizard stuff that it makes up for the worse spell progression.
The problem comes because, for totally casual players, it really is more powerful. . .
I think you nailed it.
Because, barring 6 spell level spontaneous casters (who get their spells at same level as 6 spell level prepared casters), spontaneous caster have to be less powerful with one more way than a prepared caster. The reason for this? i don't know.
That's not what it means. You can learn unusual spells, but these are only referring to sorcerer/wizard spells that exist in the game world aside from the standard allowed list in the ruleset This doesn't mean you can steal spells off of another class's list. You also can not exceed the amount in the spells known table short of feats and class features such as bloodline bonus spells.due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.
it says that no where in the quote that i listed that it has to be off the sor/wiz spell list for that exception. thus the or between list and they.
ultimately its up to the gm what he will allow you to do. my gm will let me do it but i have to do a lot of roleplay. but remember, fluff wise, the sorcerer basically thinks up a spell idea and then practices learning how to cast it. then when he gains a level he can take that spell. why couldnt a sorcerer say "i wanna learn how to heal someone" and then try casting healing spells? as a gm, id make them have to talk to clerics and the like to learn the magic behind cure spells as well as theories of healing and such, much like taking a class. then he knows how to manipulate the magic to make it work for him, and now all he needs is time to practice and a new level to buy the spell.
besides, bards and witches can heal using arcane spells.
i am taking both RAW and RAI into account when i tell anybody about that part in the sorcerers rules. due to the fact it say OR is what i base it off of. although you can houserule it any way you want ;)
But clerics - barring archetypes or class alternatives - do not need to prepare cure spells to use them. Clerics also have access to their entire list every...What about the Oracle? What's the balancing factor there? The Oracle doesn't have a similar ability (to my knowledge) yet she's put in the same boat as the sorcerer.due to that "wizards are better than sorcerers" (which i do not believe, thus the quotes), i dont see a problem with the same spell progression.
one class gets to repick spells everyday, but has to plan. the other doesnt have to plan but cant change spells, at least for a while.
that being said, i will add that
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.meaning with a little bit of roleplay (or a lot, depending) you can learn spells from other casters not on your spells list, which makes sense since you basically think up a spell and then cast it.fluff wise? i would say that the oracle is only given so much leeway due to that the gods chose her to be an oracle. thus they put limitations on what she can cast. where as a sorcerer can tap into the raw essense of magic that pervades through his blood and is a natural unit of the world, not divied out by some deity.
mechanics wise? oracle gets cure spells for free (or inflict) which allows them to take something else instead. sorcerers dont have that, other than bloodline spells.
the reason for this was due to that they wanted to oracle to be able to cast cure spells, and the only way they could do this would be to allow them to have them for free, otherwise theyd have to spend spells known on them and no one would play the class.
basically when a cleric casts a cure spell, they are doing exactly what the oracle does. its on his spell list. he just casts it when he wants too.
see if ever i play a cleric, paladin, or oracle, im going combative with him. then when someone says, "heal me," i can say, "no, quit getting hit. youre supposed to move out of the way when he swings his sword at you. im giving you skills that will aid you when im no longer here to babysit you."
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it says that no where in the quote that i listed that it has to be off the sor/wiz spell list for that exception. thus the or between list and they.
It's cool that your GM allows it, but I am fairly positive that the point of that line is just to allow Sorcerer's to invent new spells just like a Wizard can, and that it has nothing to do with suggesting the Sorcerer can take spells off of other class lists.
The implication is, "these new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells (created by the GM or a PC that are not common spells from the list, but are still on the list for that particular campaign)..."
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Imagine that, a gamer not agreeing with a designer. The shock! Sorcerers have two fold flexibility, not only can they pick what spell they wish to cast, they can also apply metamagic on the fly as opposed to having to prepare it in advance the way wizards and other prepping casters must. We can argue it back and forth until the cows come home, but that's essentially the answer to your question these are the balancing issues between spontaneous and prepatory casters in a nutshell.The designers believed that being able to cast spontaneously was significantly more powerful than having to prepare spells. Thus, they offset the progression for spontaneous casters as a balancing factor.
Some of us do not agree with that decision.
Was that directed at me or the OP?
Imagine that, a gamer not agreeing with a designer. The shock! Sorcerers have two fold flexibility, not only can they pick what spell they wish to cast, they can also apply metamagic on the fly as opposed to having to prepare it in advance the way wizards and other prepping casters must. We can argue it back and forth until the cows come home, but that's essentially the answer to your question these are the balancing issues between spontaneous and prepatory casters in a nutshell.The designers believed that being able to cast spontaneously was significantly more powerful than having to prepare spells. Thus, they offset the progression for spontaneous casters as a balancing factor.
Some of us do not agree with that decision.
What a heated reply.
I disagree with the designers as well.
I started this topic because I wanted to know if there was a... valid reason for the slower progression. So far, the answers I have got, to me, does not justify the slower progression. I personally do not believe sorcerers or oracles would outclass wizards and clerics if they had equal spell progression. What the oracle and sorcerer have in power, the cleric and wizard has in flexibility.
it says that no where in the quote that i listed that it has to be off the sor/wiz spell list for that exception. thus the or between list and they.It's cool that your GM allows it, but I am fairly positive that the point of that line is just to allow Sorcerer's to invent new spells just like a Wizard can, and that it has nothing to do with suggesting the Sorcerer can take spells off of other class lists.
The implication is, "these new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells (created by the GM or a PC that are not common spells from the list, but are still on the list for that particular campaign)..."
and you sir have just pointed out the exact reason why i dont believe in the hardy evidence of RAW. everytime you read something, you have to interpret it. RAI is similar in this. unless you have the person right next to you to tell you how its supposed to work, ALL of the rules are open to interpretation. i read it one way, you read it another. therefore, the tables we game at will have to make up their minds on the decision themselves.
thats why i love this game. you can add or change things that you want. we are just playing as they are written in the book. happy gaming ;)
As for the "metamagic on the fly" portion of that post, it takes a sorcerer/oracle a full round to cast a metamagic spell(excluding Quickened spells) when a wizard can cast it as a standard action(if that is the casting time).
Imagine that, a gamer not agreeing with a designer. The shock! Sorcerers have two fold flexibility, not only can they pick what spell they wish to cast, they can also apply metamagic on the fly as opposed to having to prepare it in advance the way wizards and other prepping casters must. We can argue it back and forth until the cows come home, but that's essentially the answer to your question these are the balancing issues between spontaneous and prepatory casters in a nutshell.The designers believed that being able to cast spontaneously was significantly more powerful than having to prepare spells. Thus, they offset the progression for spontaneous casters as a balancing factor.
Some of us do not agree with that decision.
They can apply metamagic on the fly, hm big deal they still use higher spell slot and require a full round action to do so, even wizards have some ways to that (albeit in a more limited fashion) but do you know who can use metamagic better? The wizard because he doesn't have to spend a full round action to use a metamagic rod like a sorcerer.
a wizard has 5-8? spells per day per level. A sorcerer has 6-9 spells per day per spell level. they know 12 8 8 7 7 7 6 6 6 6 4 without feats at the cost of 1 hp per level or 1 skill point so the sorcerer has more spells per day and can have more spells know with alt favored class and feats so they have almost as much versatility as a wizard and they can just buy a scroll if they need the spell. A wizard can cast any spell but in my opinion they don't need to know more than 10 spells of any given level so you are down maybe 2-3 spells. So they decided to leave the slower progression in to balance this. also the wizards only get 1 more feat then the sorc
But while the sorcerer is using every alternate favoured class bonus and every feat on new spells, the wizard can simply buy a scroll and learn it - and still have feats.
To say that "just because the sorcerer can match the wizard in versatility - provided that he expends every single resource to do so - they had to balance it by slowing down his progression" doesn't cut it for me. The wizard can get all the spells by only expending gold. The sorcerer, in the meanwhile, needs to cripple himself so he has less skills/less hit points and less feats, only to be outdone by a wizard.
Don't get me wrong - the sorcerer has an edge because he can cast any of those spells on the fly. But considering how much he sacrificed for it, it just isn't worth it.
Since the Original Poster has his conclusion, I'll go ahead and post my 'quick and dirty' solution to the dilemma he and I perceive.
Step 1: Move Bloodline granted spells down 2 levels (such that they are gained at the same levels wizards gain new spell levels. Allow sorcerers to choose a thematically appropriate spell to their bloodline from all available sources, rather than the spells set in stone.
Step 2: Grant one additional spell known at those same levels (1, 3, 5, etc) of the same level as the bloodline spell.
Step 3: Grant one additional spell per day at those levels.
Step 4: Metamagic does not increase casting time (still does for Bards.) Arcane Bloodline Sorcerers replace their non-increased cast class feature with the Universalist Wizard's free metamagic class feature.
Boom, done. Warning, there will be some on these boards who feel this is overpowered.
I like this.
I already houserule it so spontaneous casters have the same progression as prepared ones.
my spells known were without feats just favored class bonus and bloodline spells. and the sorc can still buy a one use scroll and use it for the spells he doesn't know you may need a spell once and the wizard has it forever but usually those spells are once or twice so the wizard gets it permanently where as the sorc has to spend the money a few more times. and both will have to go to town to get the spell.
What if you aren't a human? What if the DM doesn't permit alternate favoured class bonuses? If the crux of the argument is "this isn't a problem if you're a human sorcerer" - because the alternate favoured class bonus for an extra spell is human only - then... you still need to justify it for the other races who do not have this.
discussions of balance seem fairly pointless to me. who ever said the classes were going to be balanced in the first place? this is not WoW. its a co-operative game. different classes have different flavors and shine at different things. people play things they like.
it doesnt matter if you think the sorc is weaker than the wiz or whatever, one of the great thing about PF is it made the two classes different! in fact all the classes are better / cooler / funner in some way.
play whichever you enjoy more imo.
But balance was one of the goals of 3.0 D&D (when the sorcerer was created). Every character now required the same XP to level up, got the same number of feats (not counting bonus feats granted by the class), the same skill cap. A level 10 character has the same challange rating reguardless of class. Everything in the rules implies that a level 10 character is the same as every other level 10 character. Balance was obviously a goal of 3.0, but they failed. And when level adjustment rules came out, that was even more evidence that balance was (supposed to be) part of the game.
Maybe Paizo doesn't care about balance. Which is fine. But the entire basis of the game they copied to make Pathfinder assumed that balance was needed and part of the game.
Your call Jack. In my games Wizards still outperform sorcerers because of their vast versatility and ability to approach problems from different angles. That being said, if your wizard players aren't as experienced and tactical, then I could see wanting to tone down the Sorcerer houserule.
if they have prepared the right spells for the day. a lot of the times, this isnt the case.
As for the "metamagic on the fly" portion of that post, it takes a sorcerer/oracle a full round to cast a metamagic spell(excluding Quickened spells) when a wizard can cast it as a standard action(if that is the casting time).ONLY if they have made the decision to dedicate that metamagic in spell preparation. If the wizard is suddenly silenced for example, he's still screwed if he did not prepare any of his spells with the silent metamagic feat, whereas mr sorcerer can call on that metamagic whenever he wants with the slight penalty of a longer casting time. This came up during a Living City series of finale modules when the ENTIRE city was suddenly engulfed with silent effect from a malfunctioning mythal.
Universalist wizard with amulet of magecraft, spell perfection, Greater Spell Specialization.
See? As i told you wizards can also do it (albeit in a more limited way).
A tradition based on percieved balancing issues. When sorcerors were created it was though that they would be dramatically more powerful then wizards due to the flexibility of spontaneous casting. Turns out that was probably not the case, but the difference in spell progression has remained.
It might have been fine if they hadn't "doubly balanced" sorcerers by (a) giving them a tiny list of spells known and (b) delaying their spellcasting.
I suspect either (a) or (b) would have been enough; (a) and (b) is a bit excessive.