Am I correct in thinking that a cloudkill can be neutralized by tossing out a pit in the middle of it?
Here is the pertinent part of the description
Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.
Figure out the cloud's new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.
Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.
Sounds reasonable and allowable to me!
It's a poison gas and as such isn't cohesive like other materials. I would think only a portion of the cloud would sink into the pit while the rest continued moving forward.
It's not like a slinky where one end going into the pit drags the back end into it. Gas can separate.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also the pit is only 10ft across, while the cloud is 40ft across.
In the right circumstances, though, this idea could at least be helpful. Put a pit in front of it, and it would essentially cut a notch out of the front, potentially buying an extra round for someone to escape (like if someone was unconscious and in the path, and someone needed to get them away).
Or if you have a bunch of too-scared-to-move orphans/nuns/whatever in the path, and you have four 4th-level sorcerers, they could create row after row of pits and save the day!
Or the evil version
Create pit to drop goodie goodie PC, probably a Paladin-they are just sooo GOOD, into a pit then Cloudkill and let it slowly fall down into the pit, while the Goodie Goodie in Full plate watches death sink down towards him...muahahahahahahahaha
In the right circumstances, though, this idea could at least be helpful. Put a pit in front of it, and it would essentially cut a notch out of the front
I guess I don't understand. Why would it cut a notch out? If the new point of origin is over the pit, it would 'drop' to the bottom of the pit, but that wouldn't affect how far across the cloud goes. At most it would lower the 'top' of the cloud by however deep the pit is. Looking down on a map the pit would have no real effect on the cloud. Right? Or are people thinking that the fog can't 'climb' back up the far side of the pit?
In the right circumstances, though, this idea could at least be helpful. Put a pit in front of it, and it would essentially cut a notch out of the frontI guess I don't understand. Why would it cut a notch out? If the new point of origin is over the pit, it would 'drop' to the bottom of the pit, but that wouldn't affect how far across the cloud goes. At most it would lower the 'top' of the cloud by however deep the pit is. Looking down on a map the pit would have no real effect on the cloud. Right? Or are people thinking that the fog can't 'climb' back up the far side of the pit?
I agree with Jiggy - the pit will in no way slow down or reduce the area of the cloud.
I think it would cut a notch in the cloud if the pit is deeper than the cloud is tall, but I don't think it would make much difference as the gas around the newly formed "notch" would move to fill up the space rather quickly.
Someone get some dry ice and test this out!
The cloud is a spread spell. The way a spread spell works is it spreads out (thus the name) from the center point a given number of feet. The spell stops spreading when it's either spread out that number of feat, or it encounters a surface it can't penetrate. This particular spell says it will go 'down' into tunnels and such as well while spreading.
So, if you cast the spell 50 feet from you. And someone else casts a pit 60 feet in front of you (10 feet from the spell), then here is what happens. The spell spreads out from the starting point 20 feet. When it hits the pit, it drops down into the pit. The spell continues to spread around the pit, and eventually closes back up on the other side, same is it would spread around a 5ft thick pillar. So all the pit does is create a 'divot' in the cloud from the top (that is, if you were looking from above, you'd see the 20 ft high cloud had a pit in it over the pit itself). Then the cloud continues to move forward, 10 ft per turn. Eventually, it will overpass the pit and leave it behind. If it helps, think of a spread spell syrup poured on the area, with a round 'lip' to hold it in. You pour in syrup until the syrup is at the top of the lip.
Eventually, it will overpass the pit and leave it behind. If it helps, think of a spread spell syrup poured on the area, with a round 'lip' to hold it in. You pour in syrup until the syrup is at the top of the lip.
So then it would slow the advance just behind that spot where the pit is
The cloud is a spread spell. The way a spread spell works is it spreads out (thus the name) from the center point a given number of feet. The spell stops spreading when it's either spread out that number of feat, or it encounters a surface it can't penetrate. This particular spell says it will go 'down' into tunnels and such as well while spreading.
So, if you cast the spell 50 feet from you. And someone else casts a pit 60 feet in front of you (10 feet from the spell), then here is what happens. The spell spreads out from the starting point 20 feet. When it hits the pit, it drops down into the pit. The spell continues to spread around the pit, and eventually closes back up on the other side, same is it would spread around a 5ft thick pillar. So all the pit does is create a 'divot' in the cloud from the top (that is, if you were looking from above, you'd see the 20 ft high cloud had a pit in it over the pit itself). Then the cloud continues to move forward, 10 ft per turn. Eventually, it will overpass the pit and leave it behind. If it helps, think of a spread spell syrup poured on the area, with a round 'lip' to hold it in. You pour in syrup until the syrup is at the top of the lip.
If holes and dips have little to no actual effect on the spell because it is a spread effect, why bother mentioning that it is heavier than air at all?
If holes and dips have little to no actual effect on the spell because it is a spread effect, why bother mentioning that it is heavier than air at all?The cloud is a spread spell. The way a spread spell works is it spreads out (thus the name) from the center point a given number of feet. The spell stops spreading when it's either spread out that number of feat, or it encounters a surface it can't penetrate. This particular spell says it will go 'down' into tunnels and such as well while spreading.
So, if you cast the spell 50 feet from you. And someone else casts a pit 60 feet in front of you (10 feet from the spell), then here is what happens. The spell spreads out from the starting point 20 feet. When it hits the pit, it drops down into the pit. The spell continues to spread around the pit, and eventually closes back up on the other side, same is it would spread around a 5ft thick pillar. So all the pit does is create a 'divot' in the cloud from the top (that is, if you were looking from above, you'd see the 20 ft high cloud had a pit in it over the pit itself). Then the cloud continues to move forward, 10 ft per turn. Eventually, it will overpass the pit and leave it behind. If it helps, think of a spread spell syrup poured on the area, with a round 'lip' to hold it in. You pour in syrup until the syrup is at the top of the lip.
Probably to prevent players from arguing that they can avoid it by crawling (like regular smoke), or laying on their backs until it passes over them.
Like, if it wasn't heavier than air, you could have your party huddle up and Create a Pit underneath them (assuming you had time). Since it's heavier than air, it will simply fill the pit; you need to get away from it (horizontally) or above it's effective range to avoid it.
Possibly this is handed down from chemical weapons like mustard gas. Since it's primary use was in trench warfare against ground troops, being heavier than air is a great benefit.
Hrm. It's a Spread, not a Cylinder. So you count out the radius from the origin. On a flat surface, it would go 20' to each side (4 squares). But if it was in a pit, wouldn't you have to start counting up the sides of the pit? That would be diagonal movement and 'cost' more in order to scale up out of the sides. Effectively reducing the radius (until the origin moves out of the pit).
Meaning, if you look at it from the direction it's moving:
/---\
|---|
\---/
then in pit:
/-_-\ <-- 'wings'
|---|
\-_-/
that would be the 'notch' described above. I don't think it would work that way, because the distance from the origin point to the top 'wings' up there is now a greater distance because the origin point has fallen down however many feet. So the whole thing would shrink.
This means calculating vertical squares which just kills my head.
Something like this: Cloudkill into Pit? (The dot is the origin point of the spread)
That's sort of a cutaway of the pit, but the same thing would happen front-to-back, too.
Right?
Nope, I thought the same thing when I started to post. But, it doesn't work that way. Here's an example. If I have a pillar that's 10 feet from the origin, and it's 5 ft in diameter (I know, wierd, but go with it). It spreads out like oil, until it hits the pillar. Then it stops. However, the bit on either side of the pillar continues to spread. Once it get's to the other side of the pillar, the bits that went around the pillar continue to spread, and fill in behind the pillar, because it spreads at all points, up to 20 feet away from the origin.
Example (if I can draw it)
\
-|
-|## <--- Pillar
-|
/
---\
----|
-|## <--- Pillar
----|
---/
------\
-------|
-|##
-------|
------/
------\
-------|
-|##--|
-------|
------/
Same would happen with the pit. Yeah, the bits that run 'into' the pit directly from the origin drop down into the pit and stop. But the bit that goes around the pit also spread sideways, dropping in to the pit, and once they get on the other side of the pit, they fill in the ground beyond it. So the pit get's filled, and all the stuff beyond it out to the range.
Same would happen with the pit. Yeah, the bits that run 'into' the pit directly from the origin drop down into the pit and stop. But the bit that goes around the pit also spread sideways, dropping in to the pit, and once they get on the other side of the pit, they fill in the ground beyond it. So the pit get's filled, and all the stuff beyond it out to the range.
When the origin drops down into the pit (the cloud rolls along the ground) then the number of squares it can reach is less. I think my counting is off a bit in that image, but it still wouldn't reach as many squares.
The problem with the pillar example is that doesn't change where the origin in, it just spreads around it. With the pit, the origin drops down in there, and has further to go in order to reach the same squares.
Unless you're saying the origin point would climb up over the pillar? In which case it gets kind of crazy.
Or, maybe you're saying the origin point is not affected by gravity. It moves along in a perfect plane, passing through objects and over people. And from that point, the cloud spreads out, and then falls to the ground? That would result in the 'notch' formation, but seems kind of strange.
So I guess the question is: "Is the origin point of Cloudkill affected by gravity, or only the gas?"
Since it says the fog goes down, I'm assuming the rolling origin is just that, a rolling origin that doesn't go down, just the fog it produces does. So, it doesn't roll down into the pit, the fog it creates just drops down into it as it rolls over it. For the pillar, the origin would just pass through the pillar. It's not like a fireball where there's some physical object (bead of fire) that is the origin. The origin is just the exact center of the area of the spread, and that center moves forward 10 ft per turn. Since there's no physical component to that center, the center would just move forward. If it hit a solid wall, spell just keep going on the other side of the wall. On the other hand, the 'spread' would not appear on the other side of the wall until the origin passed through it, then it would start spreading out again, and the near side of the wall would suddenly lose all it's fog as the origin passed through it, since the spread couldn't continue anymore from the origin due to being blocked by the wall.
That's my take on it anyway, anything else, to me, invites wierdness.
Since it says the fog goes down, I'm assuming the rolling origin is just that, a rolling origin that doesn't go down, just the fog it produces does...
That's my take on it anyway, anything else, to me, invites wierdness.
If the origin stays aloft, and each square of fog drops like tetris blocks, that also invites weirdness.
If there's a 10' column and the origin point drifts into the exact center of it, there would be no fog at all that round?
Say it drives itself off a cliff. There would be fog at the top of the cliff, and some fog 100' below at the bottom of the cliff, even though the two halves are far more than 20' apart.
On the other hand, it probably must be correct, since otherwise the origin point could move more than 10' (when it drops off a cliff).
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This spell generates a bank of fog, similar to a fog cloud, except that its vapors are yellowish green and poisonous. These vapors automatically kill any living creature with 3 or fewer HD (no save). A living creature with 4 to 6 HD is slain unless it succeeds on a Fortitude save (in which case it takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud).
A living creature with 6 or more HD takes 1d4 points of Constitution damage on your turn each round while in the cloud (a successful Fortitude save halves this damage). Holding one's breath doesn't help, but creatures immune to poison are unaffected by the spell.
Unlike a fog cloud, the cloudkill moves away from you at 10 feet per round, rolling along the surface of the ground.
Figure out the cloud's new spread each round based on its new point of origin, which is 10 feet farther away from the point of origin where you cast the spell.
Because the vapors are heavier than air, they sink to the lowest level of the land, even pouring down den or sinkhole openings. It cannot penetrate liquids, nor can it be cast underwater.
Emphasis mine.
But the way I read this is that the origin itself moves along the surface of the ground, whatever that surface might be. This would imply that the origin moves down the near side of the pit and back up the far side at the rate of 10 ft per round. If nothing else, this would slow the advance of the cloud, and due to the fact that the vapors sink might (depending on the depth of the pit) largely neutralize the cloud for a bit.
As for columns, I would say that the origin could not be the center of the column, but would have to adhere to the surface of the column, either climbing over or more likely around it. If the column is small enough, the origin could conceivably wrap around the entire base of the column, but would otherwise have to skirt to one side or the other, impacting the spread as appropriate.
This clearly prevents the effect from moving through walls, though it could still move through cracks in the wall or over/under/around a wall if such a path were present. I would assume the caster could make this decision.
Otherwise, if the origin were to be capable of moving through solid objects, such as the example of the wall posted by mdt above, cloudkill would be insanely powerful due to the fact that it no longer relies on line of sight and can be used to cut swaths through castles and dungeons.
This clearly prevents the effect from moving through walls, though it could still move through cracks in the wall or over/under/around a wall if such a path were present. I would assume the caster could make this decision.
Otherwise, if the origin were to be capable of moving through solid objects, such as the example of the wall posted by mdt above, cloudkill would be insanely powerful due to the fact that it no longer relies on line of sight and can be used to cut swaths through castles and dungeons.
Unfortunately, nothing in the rules backs this up.
Sorry, but follow me on this. Line of effect for spells only covers where you can CAST the spell, not where it can effect people. The classic example of this is the fireball and the corner of the warehouse.
---->o<-- Fireball Center
---|
---| @<-- Poor Schmuck
---|
---|<--- Warehouse
The caster is off to the left, and can't see Poor Schmuck, but knows someone is there. He casts the fireball at the corner of the warehouse. He has no line of effect to PS, but PS still is inside the area of effect of the Fireball, and is hit by it.
So line of effect is only in effect at the casting of the spell. Once it's cast, it continues to act on things around it that may not have line of effect to the original caster.
Unfortunately, this means that the cloudkill spell can affect things that the original caster has no line of effect to. And since it moves forward at 10 ft per turn along the ground, due to a poor wording in the spell, it can move into places that it doesn't have LOE for the original caster. Nothing says the origin point is stopped in it's move. The spell provides no mechanism for the origin point to move over walls or down caves. Only the fog can do so by the spell text. Thus the origin doesn't move 'up or down'. It only moves away from the caster at 10 feet per turn. The origin is not a physical object, so it's not stopped by anything. A GM could be reasonable by saying anything that stops the spread stops the origin, but then when it hit's things like a pillar, it stops, period. Not just a wall. If it isn't stopped by a pillar, then the wall wouldn't stop it either. Which means, that to me, yes, cloudkill is insanely powerful as written (which is poorly). Unfortunately, the original developer didn't put any text in for what happens when the origin meets an object. And the rules are silent on it because the rules don't have an underlying assumption that a spread spell is going to move after being cast. It's a wierd spell, and I don't think there's any other spells that behave like this.
The only other spell I can think of that moves is ball of fire (not the right name, I know, but I can't remember it), but that moves at the direction of the person who cast it, and they have to have line of sight to where they're directing it, so that solves that little problem.
I'm not saying that creatures within the radius of the effect would not be affected, regardless of line of sight, just that the point of origin has to move along the surface of the ground. It cannot simply phase through a surface that has no cracks. I would think of the origin as a creature under the effects of Gaseous Form.
To reiterate: the spell effect states that the effect moves along the surface of the ground and will sink to the lowest level of the land, which IMO, also implies that the new origin would do the same.
This would not prevent the origin from climbing up a wall or through a crack in that wall if that is what was required to satisfy the movement of that origin from the caster's location at the point of casting, but it would require that there be some path to allow this to occur, otherwise the cloud would be stopped.
This also does not prevent the spread of the cloud from affecting creatures outside the caster's line of sight or line of effect, such as around a corner or through a window, but the spread still has to function through a continuous medium of air (as per the spread of your fireball, which can even wrap around walls).
The effect, and by association I would assume its origin, must pass along the ground. that is all I am stating. It cannot fly, cling to the ceiling, or phase through objects. In all honesty, as a DM I probably wouldn't even let it climb walls, though I would let it sink 5ft/rnd.
Of course, unless you can convince the Devs to clarify this issue, this entire thread is just an opinion thread, now isn't it, as the rules do not clearly address this, nor given any more details than have already been mentioned. So please, realize, this is how I would rule the issue based on the wording and filling in the intent.
Take what you please and leave the rest.
Though I still think that taking out swaths of a castle without any defense or even a way to delay the effect so others could escape is WAY overpowered, and cannot see how the Devs could have possibly intended this use of a 5th level spell.
Not really. The spell, if it does travel through objects, would just spread out along a corridor for a round as it moved through. Hardly 'slaughtering' the castle inhabitants. It'd hurt, but not kill the entire castle.
But as you pointed out, the spell is just so poorly written and defined within regards to the rest of the rules system, that you can basically make it work however you want, since the rules don't handle it. Just as long as you are consistent. If it can't move through a wall, then it can't move through a pillar either. And a pillar is not 'the ground' if that's the route you go, neither is a wall. If you take that logic, then the first time the origin goes over a hole in the ground, it goes down that hole and disappears. With that ruling, the pit spell would absolutely stop the spell. It would spread out to the walls of the pit and stop spreading. It wouldn't even have any affect above the pit if it was 20 feet deep or more. It certainly wouldn't climb up the pit wall, since that is not 'the ground' it's a wall. Same as a wall around a castle.
Basically, pick a way to handle it, and be consistent. If a wall stops the origin, then a pit stops it, a pillar stops it, etc. If a pit and pillar don't, then a wall can't either.
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"Realistically" the pit would actually split the cloud in to two clouds. For simplcity, I wouldn't try calculating out any sort of "divot" created by a pit as the cloud hits it, but I would reduce the size of the main cloud by the pit's volume. So if it's a ten foot across, thirty foot deep pit, it would reduce the cloud volume by 3000 cubic feet.
Cloudkill's volume is Pi x 20^2 x 20 = roughly 25,000 cubic feet. Reducing that by 3000 gives us 22,000 cubic feet. Then the question becomes, would it only reduce the main cloud's diameter, or it's hieght as well? Let's stay simple and keep the hieght at 20 feet. That gives us Pi x (X^2) x 20 = 22000. X = 18.7
Therefore, after dropping in to the pit, the cloud on the surface would have a new Radius of 18.7 feet. So just keep moving the emmanation point of the cloud along, but reduce the radius to 3.75 squares instead of four.
That was fun. Not very useful, but fun.
+1 but with less math. I would just shrink the radius by 5 feet and keep it rolling, leaving a full pit in it's wake.
hmmm. Even if the spread continues spreading beyond the pit, would the pit require extra movement for that part of the cloud? e.g. 10 ft down then 10ft. across then 10ft. up? Based on the volume calcs above, it wouldn't make a big difference, but it could give the DM a way to either slow down the cloud or create a temp. notch depending on how they wanted to play it at the time. This reminds me of our old 1E spell discussions - If you could make a sensible argument, go with it. One of the nice things about the game. ;^)
~D