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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Here's the general scenario for discussion. A rogue who does not have the quick draw feat has just finished a successful melee combat with one of the party's opponents. The rogue's next round comes up. He had been holding his morningstar in a two handed grip, but now decides he would like to throw something at somebody. In order to accomplish this he is going to have to do three things. The first is to change his grip on his morningstar from a two handed grip to a one handed grip with his off hand simply holding his morningstar. As he is not using the morningstar to attack anything I don't think that there should be any penalty associated with what he does next. The second thing that the rogue has to do is to draw one of his throwing weapons. We know from the rules that requires a move action. To then actually throw the weapon that was just drawn requires a standard action.
So, to shift the grip on a melee weapon, then draw a throwing weapon and actually throw the throwing weapon will take at least one full round (move action + standard action for the last two parts). But what type of action would be changing the grip on the melee weapon? If it's either a free action or a swift action then there is no problem, the rogue can do everything he needs to do in one round. But if it's a move action then the rogue is going to have to take longer than one round to do that.
My personal bias is that changing one's grip on a weapon would likely be a toss up between either a free action or a swift action. However I would be interested to see what other people have to say on this. It is one of the frustrations of working with the DnD combat system and 6 second rounds that "real life" examples and experimentation don't always work that well, otherwise I'd just say it's a free action and be done with it.
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Changing grip is a free action.
As to drawing a throwing weapon, that is debatable and I believe it is a free action as well. Throwing weapons are clearly designed to be used with multiple attacks (ie. shiruken and flurry of blows) which is impossible if it is a move action to draw each weapon. Likewise with arrows.
Alas, there are sections in the rules which state that in order to get one's full rate of fire with thrown weapons one has to have the quick draw feat. This is as opposed to other rules sections which effectively say that pulling an arrow out of a quiver, nocking it, then pulling the bow back to maximum draw can all be done with one free action. Shuriken are another exception to the "have to have a move action to draw them" rule as well. But if you're talking about daggers, darts, throwing axes, chakrams, whatever, then you have to have quick draw to throw more than one of them per round.
With a rogue I'm not as interested in maximum possible rate of fire with thrown weapons simply because you can only get one sneak attack per round, and a rogue's BAB bonuses for 2nd and 3rd attacks per round are relatively wimpy. But being able to seamlessly transition back and forth between using melee weapons and using thrown weapons is vital.
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This is wrong:
With a rogue I'm not as interested in maximum possible rate of fire with thrown weapons simply because you can only get one sneak attack per round,
Any and every attack that meets all requirements is a sneak attack. If you have 20 DEX and Combat Reflexes, and six monsters wanted to march in single file between you and a flanking buddy, you could take six flanking AoO's and get your sneak attack damage on every single one.
So, to shift the grip on a melee weapon, then draw a throwing weapon and actually throw the throwing weapon will take at least one full round (move action + standard action for the last two parts).
Changing or altering a grip style on a weapon is not an action at all. It is so simple and fast that it does not effectively use up any sort of action the game has. It is considered easy enough to be effortless and is only limited by common sense/gm Ruling.
So your rogue could draw a throwing weapon as a move action (even combine it with actual movement for free if his BAB is +1 or higher) and throw the weapon as a standard action after changing his grip as a statement. Sort of like how deciding to use power attack or not is no action at all.
As previously noted, getting full attacks with any thrown weapons requires quick draw.
Drawing ammunition is a free action. (Which can also be done as part of an Attack of Opportunity with Snap Shot - see FAQ) Arrows and Shuriken are ammunition. Daggers and Javelins are not.
You can get sneak attack on any attack which qualifies for it. Not just one per round.
It's a free action to grip or let go with one hand:
if you're wielding a 2H weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one of your hands (free action). You're now only carrying the 2H weapon, not wielding it, but your free hand is now free to attack or help cast spells or whatever. And at the end of your turn if your free hand remains free you'd be able to return it to grip your 2H weapon so you can still threaten foes and take attacks of opportunity if you want.
Reaper Miniatures
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This is wrong:
With a rogue I'm not as interested in maximum possible rate of fire with thrown weapons simply because you can only get one sneak attack per round,Any and every attack that meets all requirements is a sneak attack. If you have 20 DEX and Combat Reflexes, and six monsters wanted to march in single file between you and a flanking buddy, you could take six flanking AoO's and get your sneak attack damage on every single one.
I have played it both ways and been corrected by people both ways claiming that it is the other way - Sneak attack only applies once, or applies to all flanked/qualifying attacks.
Can anybody quote the rule(s) at me that support this?
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
I have played it both ways and been corrected by people both ways claiming that it is the other way - Sneak attack only applies once, or applies to all flanked/qualifying attacks.
Can anybody quote the rule(s) at me that support this?
Emphasis mine:A rogue gets sneak attack on ANY attacks when one or the other criteria is met for the attack.
Can anybody quote the rule(s) at me that support this?
Sneak Attack: "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Attack 1: Is the opponent flanked? Then deal extra damage.
Attack 2: Is the opponent still flanked? Then deal extra damage.
Etc.
You may be confused by Invisibility. If the rogue is invisible (from the spell) then the first attack breaks invisibility, and thus the rest of his attacks do not benefit from invis and thus no sneak attack, unless the target is ALSO flanked or denied dex for some other reason.
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This is wrong:
With a rogue I'm not as interested in maximum possible rate of fire with thrown weapons simply because you can only get one sneak attack per round,Any and every attack that meets all requirements is a sneak attack. If you have 20 DEX and Combat Reflexes, and six monsters wanted to march in single file between you and a flanking buddy, you could take six flanking AoO's and get your sneak attack damage on every single one.
I have played it both ways and been corrected by people both ways claiming that it is the other way - Sneak attack only applies once, or applies to all flanked/qualifying attacks.
Can anybody quote the rule(s) at me that support this?
Sure thing. From the description of sneak attack in the Rogue class:
'The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.'
(bolding mine)
Clearly, there's no limitation on the number of sneak attacks a rogue can make in a round. (or rather, the limit is the total number of attacks a rogue can make, constrained by BAB etc.)
The confusion arises because when striking from surprise, you generally only get one sneak attack before the target is aware of you. For example, if an invisible rogue (using the spell invisibility) attacks an opponent, the first attack the rogue makes denies the target their Dex bonus and is a sneak attack.
However, invisibility states that the spell ends after an attack is made. Thus, after the first attack, the rogue is no longer invisible, and so no longer denies the target their Dex. The rest of their attacks are normal attacks, unless they would get sneak attack for some other reason (such as flanking).
EDIT: Ah! Invisible ninjas everywhere!
I have played it both ways and been corrected by people both ways claiming that it is the other way - Sneak attack only applies once, or applies to all flanked/qualifying attacks.
Can anybody quote the rule(s) at me that support this?
You can unequivocally sneak attack more than once per round.
Well, the rules say "whenever" with no limit of once per round. The once per round thing was in 3.0, and some people didn't get the memo
From the FAQ
Bleeding Attack Rogue Talent
Q: An 8th level rogue (with bleeding attack and crippling attack) gets two attacks per round. Can a rogue make, in one round, a bleeding attack (with his 1st attack) and a crippling attack (with his 2nd attack)?
A: The wording in the rogue section for talents says "Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a rogue's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made. " So yes Bleeding Attack on the 1st attack and Crippling Attack on his 2nd.
-this wouldn't be possible at all if you could only make one sneak attack per round.
You can make a sneak post any time the other posters are distracted by writing their own reply to the question.
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So, does anyone else want to quote the text?
I'm not sure if it's clear enough.
If a rogue or anyone else holding a two handed weapon has started their turn and not acted yet, I will allow him to use one hand to throw darts/javelins/shurikens etc. If he's throwing more than one missle it's a standard full attack action to draw/throw, draw/throw up to the BAB amount.
Sounds right, though he could do it any time during his turn, really. Move, release, draw, throw, regrip.
And if he gets lucky, I'll allow an AOO strike between turns with the mace.
Assuming he's re-gripped the weapon at the end of his turn, then sure. (Or if it's a one-handed weapon) If he's still got one hand off a two-handed weapon, it's a free action to re-grip, which he can't do outside his turn, so the weapon is not wielded and does not threaten.
If he wants to fire a crossbow or bow, he's going to have to drop the mace entirely.
Why? You can fire a crossbow with one hand at a penalty. (-2 for light, -4 for heavy)
I am going to say though that if he's holding a two handed heavy weapon, he'll need his strong primary hand to hold it up and he's going to have the off hand penalty in firing his thrown weapons.
The heaviest standard two-handed weapon looks like the Orc double-axe, at 15 lbs. That's under a light load for anyone with a strength of 5 or more. So if he's under 5 strength (or has a lot of other equipment) then he might take a MDB and check penalty, neither of which affect attack rolls.
There's no primary hand unless he's Two-Weapon Fighting. There is no off hand penalty unless he's Two-Weapon Fighting. If he's just using his iterative (high-BAB) attacks then there's never an off-hand penalty, regardless of what his other hand is doing. If he IS Two-Weapon Fighting, then yes, his off-hand will take off-hand penalties, regardless of whether it's actually a hand, or armor spikes, or headbutt, or whatever.
"Off-hand" attack penalties and "off-hand" damage penalties"* only exist in the context of using the two-weapon fighting option (Core Rulebook page 202).
Thus, as the FAQ says,
"Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you trying to get an extra attack per round."
I deliberately wrote that FAQ entry so it wouldn't mention "off-hand" attacks until the section on using the two-weapon fighting option. That's because the concept of an "off-hand" only applies when you are using the two-weapon fighting option in the Combat chapter.
Thus, if you're not using the twf combat option, there's no attack penalty and no Str bonus reduction, because those are penalties* that only apply when using the two-weapon fighting option to gain an extra attack.
* Using "penalty" in the English sense of the word, meaning, "at a weaker value than normal," such as a reduced Str bonus to damage for off-hand weapons. Not necessarily in the game sense of the word, meaning "a modifier that is not a bonus."
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But what type of action would be changing the grip on the melee weapon? If it's either a free action or a swift action then there is no problem, the rogue can do everything he needs to do in one round. But if it's a move action then the rogue is going to have to take longer than one round to do that.
Strictly speaking, the action that is required to change grip on a weapon is undefined in the rules and thus is up to the GM. In practice, this decision is made based upon the style of gaming regarding tactical feel and the degree to which the group wishes to adhere to the authority of opinions posted by the development staff in forums, but which have not made it into either the FAQ nor errata.
As mentioned, James Jacobs has posted his opinion in a forum post (a format which has also been identified by the developers as not being an official method of communicating rules changes nor rulings) that switching hands on a weapon and switching from one hand to the other is a free action. This comes up in the situation you've indicated and also in situations involving casters using two-handed weapons and/or light shields and weapons.
While PF is not D&D, both systems are based on the SRD. The rules clarifications for D&D were published in the D&D Frequently Asked Questions document. The last printing of which includes:
weapons from one hand to the other should take a move
action. My group and I thought that seemed pretty long,
since it’s only a free action to drop something. Why can’t
you just drop it into your other hand?
It’s not really true that switching weapons from one hand to
another is just like dropping a weapon. When you drop a
weapon, you’re releasing it and letting it drop to the ground,
with no real guidance (or attention) as to exactly where it lands.
Switching a weapon from one hand to another is certainly more
complex than simply dropping it. At the very least, switching
hands would require you to use one hand to take the weapon
from the other and at most it involves using both hands together
in a coordinated action. Either way that sounds a lot like
drawing a weapon, which is a move action. When you simply
drop a weapon, you don’t really care where it lands, and it
doesn’t require you to use the other hand to guide the action.
The prior ruling referenced is:
to cast spells. Is he right?
Yes and no. To cast a spell with a somatic (S) component,
you must gesture freely with at least one hand. (PH 140) A
cleric (or any caster, for that matter) who holds a weapon in
one hand and wears a heavy shield on the other arm doesn’t
have a hand free to cast a spell with a somatic component
(which includes most spells in the game). To cast such a spell,
the character must either drop or sheathe his weapon.
Another simple option is for the cleric to carry a buckler or
light shield instead of a heavy shield. The buckler leaves one
hand free for spellcasting, and you don’t even lose the
buckler’s shield bonus to AC when casting with that hand. The
light shield doesn’t give you a free hand for spellcasting, but
since you can hold an item in the same hand that holds the light
shield, you could switch your weapon to that hand to free up a
hand for spellcasting. (You can’t use the weapon while it’s held
in the same hand as your shield, of course.) The rules don’t
state what type of action is required to switch hands on a
weapon, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s the
equivalent of drawing a weapon (a move action that doesn’t
provoke attacks of opportunity).
It is common within the PF forum-reading community, and by it, the PF community at large, to use James' ruling, which is that manipulation of weapons in hand is free. This has the effect of allowing characters to go from two-handed occupied to one-hand free in the course of a round with no penalty; it is generally treated as applying to changing from a one-hand wield to a two-hand wield and vice versa as well.
Those coming from a D&D background may prefer the continuity of the D&D FAQ rulings on the matter. This is particularly true for those who came from the RPGA Living Greyhawk community, for whom the D&D FAQ held the force of rule.
Which ever way is used, it has an effect on tactics and selection of weapons and shields. Whichever way is selected is ultimately up to the playing group since the rules don't cover it, and should be consistent with the play style desired with the group regarding action economy and tactics.
So, does anyone else want to quote the text?
I'm not sure if it's clear enough.
LOL
Thanks everybody. Two weeks ago I was told that you only got the sneak attack on attack #1 - and now I get to correct that, and change back to how we had been doing it.
Thank you all.
If you are invisible, you only get sneak attack on the first attack, since after attacking, you are no longer invisible!
Greater Invisibility gets around that.