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If I'm using a one-handed main weapon, a quickdraw light shield as an off-hand weapon while TWFing, and that I have the quickdraw feat, can I :
- Declare a full-round attack taking the normal -2 penalty,
- Attack with my main one-handed weapon two-handed,
- Don my shield as a free action and bash with it as an off-hand weapon,
- Remove it as a free action,
- Attack with my main one-handed weapon two-handed,
- Don my shield as a free action and bash with it as an off-hand weapon,
- ...
- Rincing and reharsing until I have made all my attacks this turn, and finish by donning my shield so I'm protected during the enemy's round ?
Seems like there is nothing wrong rules-wise, am I overlooking something ? In the same way, could you replace the shield with a weapon and a glove of storing ?
Using a two-handed weapon and an off-hand weapon is a debate that has yet to be settled so there are no clear rules on that.
The number of free actions available is up to the GM, so the allowing of the above tactic is still up to GM discretion even if an official or census based answer was found on the TWF+THW issue.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If I'm using a one-handed main weapon, a quickdraw light shield as an off-hand weapon while TWFing, and that I have the quickdraw feat, can I :
- Declare a full-round attack taking the normal -2 penalty,
- Attack with my main one-handed weapon two-handed,
- Don my shield as a free action and bash with it as an off-hand weapon,
- Remove it as a free action,
- Attack with my main one-handed weapon two-handed,
- Don my shield as a free action and bash with it as an off-hand weapon,
- ...
- Rincing and reharsing until I have made all my attacks this turn, and finish by donning my shield so I'm protected during the enemy's round ?Seems like there is nothing wrong rules-wise, am I overlooking something ? In the same way, could you replace the shield with a weapon and a glove of storing ?
You cannot 'don your shield' as a free action. It is strapped on as a move action. There is no option for hastily donning a shield. Even if you fudged things and let Quickdraw work with a shield, removing the shield is also a move action.
Quickdraw Shield (Light Wooden or Steel)
This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily.
Benefit: If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Source: APG
That is what he is referring to.
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That is what he is referring to.Quickdraw Shield (Light Wooden or Steel)
This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily.
Benefit: If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Source: APG
^ This.
Also, other weapon + glove of storing, or off-hand thrown weapons + quick draw.
I also can't tell you what the official ruling on this would be but as a GM I would say "NO! Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done!"
I wouldn't allow a TWF attempt in which all available hands of the character (which are normally 2) are holding the same weapon at any time.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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That is what he is referring to.Quickdraw Shield (Light Wooden or Steel)
This light shield is specially crafted with a series of straps to allow a character proficient in shields to ready or stow it on his or her back quickly and easily.
Benefit: If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a swift action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw a light or one-handed weapon with one hand and a quickdraw shield with the other in the time it would normally take you to draw one weapon. If you have the Quick Draw feat, you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action.
Source: APG
Ahh... I'd totally forgotten about the QD shields.
I would rule that there is a limit to this based on the wording 'you may don or put away a quickdraw shield as a free action'...
so that you can do one of things with a free action in a given round, but not the other.
if you spend your normal actions to do the reverse (not allowing full-round actions)
you could possibly repeat the same action with another free action,
but splicing unlimited paired remove/don free actions into a full-attack isn't really going to happen.
I do wish Paizo had just written the feat a bit more rigorously in that regard though, so it wasn't solely up to GM fiat...
That said, anybody playing in PFS should certainly expect GMs to enforce their prerogative re: the number of free actions in a round.
"Full Attack"(see PF SRD under full round actions) and "Two Weapon Fighting" (see PF SRD under special attacks) are two different full round actions .. choose one and forget the other for that round.
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I also can't tell you what the official ruling on this would be but as a GM I would say "NO! Go sit in the corner and think about what you've done!"
I wouldn't allow a TWF attempt in which all available hands of the character (which are normally 2) are holding the same weapon at any time.
My reaction would be:
"That item don't exist, too many people suggesting cheese manoeuvres with it in the forum."I think that sometime the developers forget that one round is 6 seconds.
Donning a shield with a swift action, ok. A free action? NO!
Especially when a item can be used as a throw weapon and so the players have a good argument about drawing it even when it is not their turn.
It's not clear per RAW, but IMHO the same rules that apply for natural attacks should also apply to any other attacks: if you used the limb to make an attack, it can't be used to make other attacks on your turn (with your actions).
It's not clear per RAW, but IMHO the same rules that apply for natural attacks should also apply to any other attacks: if you used the limb to make an attack, it can't be used to make other attacks on your turn (with your actions).
It doesn't work this way because of iterative attacks from high BAB.
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It's really cool people saying it's cheese and all, but I'm asking again :
- What about a Two-handed weapon + armor spikes then ? It seems to be an accepted strategy, but doesn't involve me taking yet another feat in a TWFing build.
- What about a one-handed weapon + light off-hand weapon in a glove of storing to retrieve it as a free action ?
- What about a sling in main-hand and a quickdraw light shield as off-hand to attack, reload and bash ?
And Eridan, first, TWFing and full-round attack aren't two different actions by RAW, as TWFing is merely adding one attack with specific rules during the round ; secondly, I am clearly saying in the first post that I declare a two-weapon fighting round from the beginning, so I'm not trying to avoid the penalty to each attack I make until the beginning of my next turn.
Seems like there is nothing wrong rules-wise, am I overlooking something ?
I would probably say too many free actions. A good way around that is to just make all your primary attacks with the sword first, then quickdraw the shield once, and bash your offhands.
I wouldn't let the shield AC bonus apply, as you've used your shield as a weapon, regardless of whether you've put it away then donned it again.
I would -maybe- let you get a shield bonus if you put it away then don a completely different shield. But that's pretty cheesy.
- What about a Two-handed weapon + armor spikes then ?
Legal.
- What about a one-handed weapon + light off-hand weapon in a glove of storing to retrieve it as a free action ?
Probably legal. Assuming you can use the hand with a stored item to do other things without crushing it. (Which is probably the intent, but it doesn't specify) Also you may run into the same free action limit as the quickdraw shield.
- What about a sling in main-hand and a quickdraw light shield as off-hand to attack, reload and bash ?
You don't need a quickdraw shield for that. Fire sling (one handed), reload with shield-hand (not wielding a weapon, just reloading it), then bash. (Assuming you have an ability to reload quicker than a move action)
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I would probably say too many free actions. A good way around that is to just make all your primary attacks with the sword first, then quickdraw the shield once, and bash your offhands.
I wouldn't let the shield AC bonus apply, as you've used your shield as a weapon, regardless of whether you've put it away then donned it again.
I would -maybe- let you get a shield bonus if you put it away then don a completely different shield. But that's pretty cheesy.
Resolving main attacks once then off-hand attacks is the way I did it with my fighter during 12 levels, I'm just looking at this strategy for 13th level, and for a fellow player who will use a Scimitar/kukri + glove of storing ranger.
I also ask because I believe I was doing it wrong and had to resolve the attacks from highest to lowest, including off-hand attacks ; but it was a pain in the ass, and way simpler to resolve first the sword then the shield.Also, note that I have Improved Shield Bash since level 1, and thus don't lose my shield bonus when attacking with it.
And changing the shield wouldn't be in any way as cheesy as you put it, as it means you have to magically enhance and spend monetary/feat ressources for :
- 1 Weapon
- 1 Shield + As a weapon
- 1 Armor
- 1 bigger shield
And that's before any adventuring gear, where the THF still does the same with more damage, and just has to spend money and feat for 1 armor and 1 weapon.
I also ask because I believe I was doing it wrong and had to resolve the attacks from highest to lowest, including off-hand attacks ; but it was a pain in the ass, and way simpler to resolve first the sword then the shield.
There's always disagreement about it, but I think it's clear:
"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest."
Thus, making them in order ONLY applies to multiple attacks granted by high BAB. Also it's far less work that way.
Also, note that I have Improved Shield Bash since level 1, and thus don't lose my shield bonus when attacking with it.
Good catch, I forgot about that feat. I really need to get around to making a shielded character some time.
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- What about a sling in main-hand and a quickdraw light shield as off-hand to attack, reload and bash ?You don't need a quickdraw shield for that. Fire sling (one handed), reload with shield-hand (not wielding a weapon, just reloading it), then bash. (Assuming you have an ability to reload quicker than a move action)
So what you are saying is that it is indeed possible to use means that require way less money and feats as to obtain a similar benefit with more damage, but less AC ; while the quickdraw shield example I showed is feasable by RAW, but requires a heavy investment to be efficient ?
Trading low investment/heavy damage for heavy investment/moderate damage+moderate AC doesn't seem so cheesy to me, especially when you assume that we do sword attacks before shield attacks, and thus I would put down then don my shield only once per round.
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Thus, making them in order ONLY applies to multiple attacks granted by high BAB. Also it's far less work that way.
Agreed. At 12th level, my attacks are made as +12/+7/+2 +12/+7, instead of something I saw once on the forums looking like +12/+12/+7+/+7/+2. There isn't any difference in benefits/drawbacks for doing this, except way less bookkeeping and confusion.
Also, S&B vanilla fighter 12/sacred shield paladin 1 can be really nice, even without this trick.
So what you are saying is that it is indeed possible to use means that require way less money and feats as to obtain a similar benefit with more damage, but less AC ; while the quickdraw shield example I showed is feasable by RAW, but requires a heavy investment to be efficient ?
Not with that example, no, as you need a way to reload the sling as a free action in order to make multiple attacks with it. (I'm unaware of a feat that does this)
It would work with a hand crossbow, though, if you had rapid reload. Fire iteratives then shield bash.
I don't see any of these options as really being 'low investment' though. Exotic Weapon Prof+Rapid Reload vs QuickDraw + Imp Shield Bash.
Also remember you could use a two-handed weapon, too. Iterative attacks with Greatsword, let go with one hand, QD Shield, then bash. You threaten with the shield so no need to re-grip the greatsword until your next turn.
S&B vanilla fighter 12/sacred shield paladin 1 can be really nice, even without this trick.
Don't overlook the Thunderstriker!
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I don't see any of these options as really being 'low investment' though. Exotic Weapon Prof+Rapid Reload vs QuickDraw + Imp Shield Bash.
Not with THW + armor spikes, which I see most often as the exemple of damage dealer.
Also remember you could use a two-handed weapon, too. Iterative attacks with Greatsword, let go with one hand, QD Shield, then bash. You threaten with the shield so no need to re-grip the greatsword until your next turn.
I'm assuming you need two hands to wield a THW in fight even if you are currently not using it, at least for the purposes of something like TWFing asking for mobility and agility. If someone wants to do it, Thunderstriker like you said seems less silly.
I'm assuming you need two hands to wield a THW in fight even if you are currently not using it
James Jacobs (Creative Director): "if you're wielding a 2H weapon, you can let go of the weapon with one of your hands (free action). You're now only carrying the 2H weapon, not wielding it, but your free hand is now free to attack or help cast spells or whatever. And at the end of your turn if your free hand remains free you'd be able to return it to grip your 2H weapon so you can still threaten foes and take attacks of opportunity if you want."
Does this mean you could spellstrike two-handed with a magus ? Not sure about this...
Spellstrike, yes, Spell Combat, no.
Well, this means THW + TWFing is viable then ?
Viable within the rules? Yes. Viable at a cheese-hating table? Maybe. Viable as top optimized DPR or whatever? No idea, but probably not.
I was just looking at Thunderstriker again, and you don't get to keep your buckler AC bonus until level 19. Ouch. So it's no shield bonus and just wonky TWF, or shield bonus and 1-handed weapon which gets you nothing until level 11.
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Major cheese! The 6 second round happens while everyone is acting, but it just so happens that we have to take turns at the table. I really don't think your enemy is going to stand there while you change your your shield multiple times in a round...it's laughably cheesy, RAW or not.
Don't mind that the character is actually wielding a Quickdraw light shield, with the Quickdraw feat, and isn't breaking the game in any way ; probably better described as holding the shield on a strap and hurling it into the enemy face like a flail by doing a quick turn between each hit, grabbing it back for real at the end of the round.
And it's for people reading TWFing as needing to do each attack in order ; while people usually attack first with main-hand, then off-hand when all attacks are resolved, thus giving an imagery of "I prepare myself to grab my shield, attack with my weapon, grab my shield, and finish my attack with it".I will tell the DM nothing says you can't by the rules, but advise him to see how it turns out in comparison to the TH destruction fighter (and his spiked adamantium Maul making several ennemies unable to fight in one Dimension Door from the magus + full-attack) and rule it afterhand if necessary.
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Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
1: if you have multiple attack tanks to high BAB you should you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.
2: If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first.
2 doesn't invalidate 1, so if you both have multiple attacks thanks to high BAB and using two weapons you should make the highest bonus attacks with both weapons first. using what weapon you prefer as the "leading" weapon, then the couple of attacks with the next highest bonus and so on.
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2 doesn't invalidate 1, so if you both have multiple attacks thanks to high BAB and using two weapons you should make the highest bonus attacks with both weapons first.
Except your reading isn't flawless :
"1." Specifically says "because your base attack bonus is high enough". Everywhere else in your quoted rule, when TWFing is concerned, it is written explicitely ; but unlike all mentions of TWFing made on the ruling, there is no mention of "TWFing" as a reason in itself for you to attack from highest to lowest BAB.
It only says that you have to make your attacks given from high BAB in order from higher to lowest. And then, it even makes a precision about being able to attack with either weapon first when TWFing (but does this makes this weapon your main weapon ?). And if you read this, then the following interpretation is absolutely acceptable : "you have to make your attacks given from high BAB in order from higher to lowest ; also, when using TWFing, you may use either of your weapons to first do your attacks given from your BAB".
By RAW it seems to be muddy, but technically legit. Me personally, I would not allow it, though I would maybe allow the AC bonus.
I might allow it WITH a bastard sword...I wouldn't allow it with something like a Great Axe...It's a tricky one for sure...