i'm thinking of using Fabricate to make a big club/spear/sword from whatever my surroundings are and then using telekinesis to hit with it.
a few questions:
what exactly does "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." mean? can i just make a crappy sword and call it good?
also, where can i find weight and damage info for huge/gargantuan sized weapons?
also, i was wondering what the rules would be for other uses of fabricate:
could i take a wizard's robes and make them into a big bag that instantly trapped him?
could i take the stone ground beneath someone and fashion it into a cave?
likewise, would these require craft checks? or could i just say that they're low quality?
-chris
sorry, i meant CAGE, not CAVE
also, telekinesis is a bit confusing. can i use the "sustained force" option to take someone's weapon away? if so how does that play out? they get the will check and then they lose it?
or would that be a disarm? if it's a disarm, do i continue to hold the item telekinetically afterward?
what if i used sustained force to pull someone up by the back of a thick necklace?
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets see text
Duration concentration (up to 1 round/level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (object) or none; see text; Spell Resistance yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force : A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance .
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require DC 15 Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver : Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus , and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.
Violent Thrust : Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects). Objects and creatures that miss their target land in a square adjacent to the target.
Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled, but they are allowed Will saves (and spell resistance ) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell.
If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets see text
Duration concentration (up to 1 round/level) or instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (object) or none; see text; Spell Resistance yes (object); see text
You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them. Depending on the version selected, the spell can provide a gentle, sustained force, perform a variety of combat maneuvers, or exert a single short, violent thrust.
Sustained Force : A sustained force moves an object weighing no more than 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level) up to 20 feet per round. A creature can negate the effect on an object it possesses with a successful Will save or with spell resistance .
This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration. The weight can be moved vertically, horizontally, or in both directions. An object cannot be moved beyond your range. The spell ends if the object is forced beyond the range. If you cease concentration for any reason, the object falls or stops.
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand. For example, a lever or rope can be pulled, a key can be turned, an object rotated, and so on, if the force required is within the weight limitation. You might even be able to untie simple knots, though delicate activities such as these require DC 15 Intelligence checks.
Combat Maneuver : Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don't provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus , and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell...
when i said it was CONFUSING, i didn't mean GEE I DIDNT EFFING READ IT SO IT'S CONFUSING. I READ THE SPELL. i just didnt know if taking an item away from someone, as is alluded to in the first section, was just another option or if you could only disarm with the disarm section. having the option might prove useful depending on whether or not the creature with the item was better at Will saves or combat checks. i just didnt know if you could still disarm using the first option of the spell or not.
ok, so what about if someone had a necklace and i wanted to choke them with it?
ok, so what about if someone had a necklace and i wanted to choke them with it?
No, no, no. You just... use the force! *rimshot!*
(Actually you'd make a grapple check. Then your GM'd ad hoc it.)
so what happens if i target most of a persons objects and use "violent thrust" to strip them from him?
is it just a will save for each item?
how do you know if he is flung with the items or not?
second question: i could just use "violent thrust" to disarm multiple foes, right?
ok, but the violent thrust section does say "as are those whose held possessions are targeted by the spell"
so if they are legal targets of "violent thrust" yet you say i cant disarm them, what happens?
is it just purely up to them whether or not they "let go"?
if so, does the will check just allow them to ignore the effect altogether then?
so if i used violent thrust on several held items would it go like this:
1) item-holders make will checks
2) item-holders who fail their will checks may choose to let go of their items OR travel with their items
?
and does "held" have to mean "held by hands"? if someone targets my belt with violent thrust telekinesis, does my belt get a will save too?
You're seriously over thinking it. Whatever they're trying to do just pick which of the three options is closest and use that. Also don't mix the three types in the same casting. For example disarmed falls to the ground. If they want to use a different option(like sustained force) they have to use another casting the following round.
my point is this: it SEEMS like you could disarm with all three options.
can you?
if so, you'd want to be choosy:
sustained force: single target/will save/multiple rounds
combat maneuver: single target/combat checks/multiple rounds
violent thrust: multiple targets/will saves/single round
so, assuming you could disarm with all three, your choice would depend on the situation.
however, then you have to ask if they would resolve differently.
for instance, if i did violent thrust to disarm, would they still get a check to "hang on" to the weapon? or would you assume they failed that because of the failed will save?
If you're trying to pull something from an unwilling target use the disarm option. Again, don't read so much into it.
but "violent thrust" has "whose HELD possessions are targeted by the spell"
what's the difference between "targeting a held possession" and "disarming"?
Typically characters have a much better grip on wielded weapons than held candles.but "violent thrust" has "whose HELD possessions are targeted by the spell"
what's the difference between "targeting a held possession" and "disarming"?
That. Knocking a hat off can use violent thrust and a weapon is a disarm.
ok, but in that case, no will save because a hat is not technically held?
ok, so by your estimation of the spell, i cannot disarm A WEAPON from someone and then hold the item 20 feet above their head? because that's two separate castings of the spell, right?
that begs the question: is a wand more like a weapon or candle? what about an orb?
ok, so by your estimation of the spell, i cannot disarm A WEAPON from someone and then hold the item 20 feet above their head? because that's two separate castings of the spell, right?
that begs the question: is a wand more like a weapon or candle? what about an orb?
Are they holding it or is it just part of their gear? Holding=disarm.
ok, first you agreed with this:
"Typically characters have a much better grip on wielded weapons than held candles."
by that, you implied that a candle could be disarmed with option 3
yet now you're saying "holding = disarm"
by that, you're implying that a candle could not be disarmed with option 3
so which is it?
ok, first you agreed with this:
"Typically characters have a much better grip on wielded weapons than held candles."
by that, you implied that a candle could be disarmed with option 3
yet now you're saying "holding = disarm"
by that, you're implying that a candle could not be disarmed with option 3
so which is it?
Really? *sigh* candle was just an example and not specifically important.
If he is holding the Candle disarm. If candle is in a holder which you are holding it gets a save (for being in your possession) but can be moved without disarm. The candle holder needs to be disarmed. However as a reasonable dm I would deviate from RAW and allow violent thrust to yank the candle holder out of their hand unless they had some reason to have a death grip on it, such as bein Frightened or using it as a weapon. in the latter case disarm is still appropriae and RAW.
There is a difference between lightly carrying a candelabra and bludgeoning someone with it. Use your discretion even if technically only disarm option is RAW.
Telekinesis is an excellent opportunity for GMs to bend the rules of the spell to facilitate something cool. You want to make a disarm check and then hold the weapon in the air out of the guy's reach? This is something I as a GM would likely allow, though I'd make you beat the enemy's CMD by at least 10.
The vanilla rules of Telekinesis are clear. You get to do one of those three things. If you want to get fancy, run some ideas past your GM. Unless they are crazy OP, he'll probably let you do them. But anything lasting more than a round will probably require you to concentrate.
also, telekinesis is a bit confusing. can i use the "sustained force" option to take someone's weapon away? if so how does that play out? they get the will check and then they lose it?
or would that be a disarm? if it's a disarm, do i continue to hold the item telekinetically afterward?
You can use sustained force, combat maneuver or violent thrust to remove the sword from the person's hand the checks made and results are different in each case.
If you use cm, you make a disarm check with no save, if the disarm check is successful he drops the weapon. You could disarm items from both hands with this option. It is sort of a fuzzy call whether you can get the free weapon pickup per disarm rules.
If you use violent thrust, the weapon receives a will save and no disarm check is necessary. Fling it once but then the spell ends. You could target many items at once with this option.
If you use sustained force, will save, no disarm, continue to manipulate it. You can only target 1 item with this option.
edited: for sanity.
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what exactly does "You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship." mean? can i just make a crappy sword and call it good?
Since making a usable sword takes a Craft Skill check of DC 15, then yeah, you'll probably need to make a check. Making a bog-standard club, on the other hand, you could probably get away with. A rule of thumb you could use is whether you'd require a Craft check with a DC of more than 10 if the character tried to make the thing normally - if so, then he probably needs to make the check to use Fabricate too.
Put another way, the spell's designed to bypass the time limits on crafting, but not the requirments for skill or raw materials.
also, where can i find weight and damage info for huge/gargantuan sized weapons?
As per the footnote to the weapons table on page 143 of the Core book, weight is doubled per size category (and yes, I know it makes no sense - it should be x8 per size category if you prefer a more realistic application). Damage you get by just scaling up from the table on page 145 - so a large longsword does 2d6 damage, and a huge longsword does 3d6 damage.
could i take a wizard's robes and make them into a big bag that instantly trapped him?
could i take the stone ground beneath someone and fashion it into a cave?
The thing to remember about fabricate is that the raw material used to fashion the item is the spell's material component - it needs to be in hand as you cast the spell. Technically, you anihilate that raw material by casting the spell, then magically produce the item at whatever range (within the spell's range) you want. Claiming an opponent's robes, or the ground under his feet, as your material component is going to be tricky (not to mention opening a can of worms rules-wise). What's more, you can no more target the resulting item to mess with an opponent (such as 'bagging' him) than you could use create water to drown him ('His mouth was open! I targetted it inside him!'). Fabricate just isn't designed as a combat spell - it's designed as a way to bypass the horrible time constraints of the crafting rules.
I think I see what DM Chris is trying to get at with this spell. He is asking if each use of the spell can be used to essentially disarm an opponent, but then also function normally with the now disarmed object.
Sustained Force: Disarm and then instantly move disarmed object.
Combat Maneuver: Disarm and then have disarmed object fall at opponent's feat.
Violent Thrust: Disarm and then instantly hurl disarmed object toward foe or at the opponent you just disarmed.Am I right in this DM Chris?
If so, lets look at the numbers... say your a 9th level Wizard with a +4 Int mod:
If the target's are two level 9 Bandits (Warrior), medium-size, +2 Str, +3 Dex, and +4 Will (+3 base, +1 Wis); its CMD would be 24 (10 + 9 BAB + 2 Str + 3 Dex). You would need to roll an 11 or higher to perform Telekinesis Maneuver. The Bandit would need to roll a 15 or higher to resist itself being affected by the spell or have its possessions affected.
Sustained Force Disarm: Will DC 19 - You move the (disarmed) longsword 20 feet vertically.
Combat Maneuver Disarm: +13 vs. CMD - The target drops its longsword (main-hand) into it's square. If you succeed by 10 or more, the target also drops its shortsword (off-hand).
Violent Thrust Disarm: Target: Two alchemist flasks on the bandit A's belt. Will DC 19 for each flask - You hurl each flask (Two Attacks = +8 vs. AC 10 [secondary target = square occupied by bandit B] or vs. AC 16 [secondary target = Bandit B wearing studded leather and a +3 Dex mod])
NOTE: Since you are using the Telekinesis spell, and not throwing the Alchemist Fire as a splash weapon, the attack roll is not treated as a ranged touch.
If you hit, you deal 1d6 fire [Alchemist Fire, if direct hit] plus 1 fire splash damage
OR 1 fire splash damage [Alchemist Fire, if targeting square]
Alternatively, you target the Bandit A's longsword. Will DC 19 - You hurl the (disarmed) longsword at Bandit B, One Attack = +8 vs. AC 16; Hit = 1d8 damage [Longsword]
So...
yes, we're on the same page, but you lost me at this part:
NOTE: Since you are using the Telekinesis spell, and not throwing the Alchemist Fire as a splash weapon, the attack roll is not treated as a ranged touch.
also, what was the point of showing all the math?
also, i think under "sustained force" and "violent thrust" the wielder of said weapon would have the option of letting go or not. at that point the question becomes: can you lift their weight? if so, they consciously choose to move WITH the item. if not, they hold on tight and you aren't able to move anything.
Hi, I'm not sure if this is the right place for this, but I have a different question about this spell.
Anyway, my wife is playing a middle aged wizardress, with augmented intelligence and an age bonus. Long and the short of which is, her character is suppernaturally intelligent. (+8 bonus) Anyway, she likes to throttle creatures with her mind, sort of remeniscent of Darth Vader's Force choke. To this end, she grapples them.
What I want to know is:
"Can be used once per round" does that mean that she doesn't get the normal multiple attacks per round of grapple? With a caster level of 10, shouldn't she get a grapple at 18, and a secondary grapple at 13?
How is damage adjudicated? If she is beating this dude up with her mind, does she get an intelligence bonus to damage? I know that you can use grapple to damage a creature. If it is generally 1d3+STR, would she get 1d3+INT? This is nonleathal damage, though right? Can she take -4 and kill the guy to death as per unarmed attack? This effect seems to just kill people really easily, which is fine, it is a 5th level spell after all.
The target gets the grappled condition, right? So, the rest of the party can just run up and wallop the bastard?
Violent thrust:
So adjuticating this effect seems to be a reall pain in the ass. Is it assumed that there will be s@+% lying around to throw at people? That works if you're on a scree lined moutain slope, but isn't it useless in a corridor? Am I supposed to figure out how much damage the tapestry does? Or is it the fighter's job to carry around ten Lage sized greataxes for when the wizard wants to do 30d6 points of damage with this spell?
I wouldn't ask, but the wife really loves this spell, and I don't want to short change her. All the same, I don't really want her to deactivate every monster by mind hugging them either.
"Can be used once per round" does that mean that she doesn't get the normal multiple attacks per round of grapple? With a caster level of 10, shouldn't she get a grapple at 18, and a secondary grapple at 13?
Two points:
1) Once per round is all the spell gives, so once per round is all you get.2) This is Pathfinder, not 3.5. A grapple check is a standard action, not an attack action, so you don't normally get multiple grapple checks due to high BAB.