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Has anyone had any experience with this archetype? After giving it and the style feats a once over, I've come to realize that monks can actually be *cool* and effective.
Still, I'm kind of having trouble seeing which style synergies are best. Has anyone actually played the MoMS? And if so, what styles did you use? And would you say that it was an effective build for what it was designed to do?
Those who haven't actually played it are of course welcome to add any thoughts as well. :)
I saw your subject line and was immediately excited at the thought of a Wild Shape focused Druid Archetype, then was very disappointed when it was the Monk MoMS Archetype instead.
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Played a level 12 master of many styles, though I was defeated in the area by a player far more out magiced than me, I could not get hit easily and i was a donminating force against the DMs' assassin and grappler characters as we found out. the combinded stances IMO are far superior than most other monks out there, I mean their sheer ability to deflect attacks, change damage types, gain moventment bonuses as well as awesome ability to automatically do attacks oportunity when your oppent gets one on you is awesome and useful, ally your self with a rogue and a brawler fighter or another monk with the maneuver master archtype and your able to easily able to clear a battle field with out overt magic use
I saw your subject line and was immediately excited at the thought of a Wild Shape focused Druid Archetype, then was very disappointed when it was the Monk MoMS Archetype instead.
I tried optimizing a shapeshifter druid yesterday
Has anyone had any experience with this archetype? After giving it and the style feats a once over, I've come to realize that monks can actually be *cool* and effective.
Still, I'm kind of having trouble seeing which style synergies are best. Has anyone actually played the MoMS? And if so, what styles did you use? And would you say that it was an effective build for what it was designed to do?
Those who haven't actually played it are of course welcome to add any thoughts as well. :)
It's quite epic, especially when multiclassed into other classes.
First off, Dragon and Boar make quite the team. You deal quite a lot of damage and you can sneak out of battle and have the enemy bleed to death. This is quite apparent when both are at their level 2 feats. Team that up with the MoMS' ability to get Elemental fist, plus the fatigue and exhausted options of Stunning Fist, and you've got one heavy damage dealer.What I like doing with the MoMS is to take the first two levels of monk, and then multiclass into brawler fighter. The monk levels get me Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity. Due to Dragon Ferocity, I'm able to get Elemental Fists at my first fighter level, along with Boar Style, which I should get organically. By level 5, I get Boar's Ferocity. After that, I could stay in either class, or take scout rogue. the thing about rogue is that you'll be able to either stay for high amounts of sneak attack, and by level 10, get the ninja trick that gives me rogue-4 levels of monk unarmed damage, or I could spend all my rogue talents on Terrain Mastery with a focus on Urban, then prestige into Horizon Walker, and convert all that Favored Terrains to Favored Enemies based on terrain giving me high amounts of attack and damage bonuses on anything local to Urban, which covers the base classes as well as other oftenly met native outsiders and humanoids. The next two favored terrains I get are Cave and Forest.
But the MoMS alone should be quite powerful in itself.
Crane, Snake, and Panther all synergize well if you are defense oriented. A dedicated snake/panther build can be awesome, though a little hard to pull off (unarmed fighter dip is your friend).
Dragon is great for offense, as are Boar and Tiger. Remember to use your bonus feats to skip the lame middle feats in Boar and Tiger.
Mantis and Monkey are okay for dips if you have extra styles but want to dedicate your feats to something other than more chains. I wouldn't recommend specializing in them, however.
I'm not a fan of the elemental styles, as you can't get Elemental Fist early. Kirin requires knowledge, which you are probably terrible at. Earth Style is situational, so probably not worth the feats unless you are in a strict giant hunting campaign.
For overall effectiveness, most people seem to favor a Master of Many Styles 2/Unarmed Fighter X. The lack of flurry really hurts, and the switching over to Unarmed Fighter really, really helps. Of course, the end result is more brawler than monk, but it is the go-to for pure power.
A straight Master of Many Styles can work, but be aware that you won't be an offensive powerhouse. Snake/Panther helps make up for this, by allowing a giant pile of extra attacks. Add in Dragon, Power Attack, and some buff-based bonus damage, and you can do alright.
Played a level 12 master of many styles, though I was defeated in the area by a player far more out magiced than me, I could not get hit easily and i was a donminating force against the DMs' assassin and grappler characters as we found out. the combinded stances IMO are far superior than most other monks out there, I mean their sheer ability to deflect attacks, change damage types, gain moventment bonuses as well as awesome ability to automatically do attacks oportunity when your oppent gets one on you is awesome and useful, ally your self with a rogue and a brawler fighter or another monk with the maneuver master archtype and your able to easily able to clear a battle field with out overt magic use
Very nice! What was the basic build? I always hear about effective monk builds, but I've yet to see one.
I saw your subject line and was immediately excited at the thought of a Wild Shape focused Druid Archetype, then was very disappointed when it was the Monk MoMS Archetype instead.
Oops! I didn't notice the title until now. My bad...
I, too, would love some shapeshifter action. That being said, I'll try and avoid derailing my own thread.
I kinda see master of many styles as a great way to get crane riposte at 2nd level, but beyond level 2 there isn't a huge reason to take more levels of monk, as opposed to something else with full BAB and other goodies. The main reason for this is that by going straight monk you give up many goodies from other classes and the benefits from the combat styles just aren't that great
I don't know, I think that combined with some other archetypes, it might be viable. Granted, I know nothing about monks, so I could be wrong.
I kinda see master of many styles as a great way to get crane riposte at 2nd level, but beyond level 2 there isn't a huge reason to take more levels of monk, as opposed to something else with full BAB and other goodies. The main reason for this is that by going straight monk you give up many goodies from other classes and the benefits from the combat styles just aren't that great
i digress. you seem to fail to see the possibilities of mixing various styles and their abilities. the point behind the MoMS is that you combine various feats which are alright within themselves, but are extraordinary when combined. it's the combination that makes the archetype work. the bonus feats are just there to help out.
Im a fan of Natural Weapons and MoMS. If you dip ranger and are an halforc, with the right magic items you could have 5 attacks all at your highest BAB, I would try and have claws on all limbs (thanks summoner for setting a precedent for claws on legs). Pair that with Feralcombat training and dragon style and your pretty boss. not as many attacks as a regular monk but pretty damn effective.
Im a fan of Natural Weapons and MoMS. If you dip ranger and are an halforc, with the right magic items you could have 5 attacks all at your highest BAB, I would try and have claws on all limbs (thanks summoner for setting a precedent for claws on legs). Pair that with Feralcombat training and dragon style and your pretty boss. not as many attacks as a regular monk but pretty damn effective.
Could you explain this in further detail, Obsidian? I'm not sure I understand the correlation between natural attacks and MoMS.
Crane, Snake, and Panther all synergize well if you are defense oriented. A dedicated snake/panther build can be awesome, though a little hard to pull off (unarmed fighter dip is your friend).
Out of all the styles, i think panther is my favorite. I love the idea of actively provoking AoO's and then punishing the fools who attack you. The only problem I can see with the style is getting opponents to attack you; after a round or two of using that tactic, I'm sure any reasonably intelligent person would ignore your AoO.
Im a fan of Natural Weapons and MoMS. If you dip ranger and are an halforc, with the right magic items you could have 5 attacks all at your highest BAB, I would try and have claws on all limbs (thanks summoner for setting a precedent for claws on legs). Pair that with Feralcombat training and dragon style and your pretty boss. not as many attacks as a regular monk but pretty damn effective.Could you explain this in further detail, Obsidian? I'm not sure I understand the correlation between natural attacks and MoMS.
Sure. Its a very pathetic build until you have Feral Combat training in which your Natural Attacks are treated as if you had used an Unarmed attack. So lets say you have Boar, and Dragon. Whenever you hit with a natural attack (so long as its primary) would be made at your highest BAB, get 1.5 str (dragon), 2x str (first dragon hit), and cause 2d6 bleed. The reason why this is such a gem is that if you have lets say a bite and 4 claw attacks they are all made at full BAB rather than worrying about being 3/4 BAB. Also, for a while it was debatable whether a monk's unarmed dmg progression would be transferred over to your Natural Attacks seeing as how it is an augmentation, i dont know if this has been Errated though. If you can you can get insane damage due to having the ability to get Improved Natural attack legally. It may not be ideal but I hate 3/4 BABs and using 3+ natural attacks that will normally hit even when power attacking (especially if you pick up tiger which you should because it give you a baby pounce).
Out of all the styles, i think panther is my favorite. I love the idea of actively provoking AoO's and then punishing the fools who attack you. The only problem I can see with the style is getting opponents to attack you; after a round or two of using that tactic, I'm sure any reasonably intelligent person would ignore your AoO.Crane, Snake, and Panther all synergize well if you are defense oriented. A dedicated snake/panther build can be awesome, though a little hard to pull off (unarmed fighter dip is your friend).
yea the C/S/P is great until you fight smart opponents, then they just ignore you and you suck.
I like Dragon, Tiger,___. I do dragon for charging and damage then i do tiger for the baby pounce.
also Turtle is bombdigidy if you are a grappler.
If your DM allows 3.5 books (PF is supposed to be backwards compatable) then look in Races of Stone and there is a feat, dont have my book available, that allows dwarf/gnome defense training to apply to anything large+ that would be ridiculous paired with the Earth Topple line. redic.
Be a changeling with claws, take adoptive trait for halforc bite. then dip ranger for Aspect of the Beast and take the AotB claws on your feat (a precedent set by summoners). there 5 attacks. all at 1.5 str and possibly with your unarmed damage progression. have fun.
Sure. Its a very pathetic build until you have Feral Combat training in which your Natural Attacks are treated as if you had used an Unarmed attack. So lets say you have Boar, and Dragon. Whenever you hit with a natural attack (so long as its primary) would be made at your highest BAB, get 1.5 str (dragon), 2x str (first dragon hit), and cause 2d6 bleed. The reason why this is such a gem is that if you have lets say a bite and 4 claw attacks they are all made at full BAB rather than worrying about being 3/4 BAB. Also, for a while it was debatable whether a monk's unarmed dmg progression would be transferred over to your Natural Attacks seeing as how it is an augmentation, i dont know if this has been Errated though. If you can you can get insane damage due to having the ability to get Improved Natural attack legally. It may not be ideal but I hate 3/4 BABs and using 3+ natural attacks that will normally hit even when power attacking (especially if you pick up tiger which you should because it give you a baby pounce).Im a fan of Natural Weapons and MoMS. If you dip ranger and are an halforc, with the right magic items you could have 5 attacks all at your highest BAB, I would try and have claws on all limbs (thanks summoner for setting a precedent for claws on legs). Pair that with Feralcombat training and dragon style and your pretty boss. not as many attacks as a regular monk but pretty damn effective.Could you explain this in further detail, Obsidian? I'm not sure I understand the correlation between natural attacks and MoMS.
That's kinda sick, and scary. I like it! Has there been any official ruling about Feral Combat Training and natural attack damage? The feat sort of implies that the damage is treated as unarmed damage, but I can't be sure.
Out of all the styles, i think panther is my favorite. I love the idea of actively provoking AoO's and then punishing the fools who attack you. The only problem I can see with the style is getting opponents to attack you; after a round or two of using that tactic, I'm sure any reasonably intelligent person would ignore your AoO.Crane, Snake, and Panther all synergize well if you are defense oriented. A dedicated snake/panther build can be awesome, though a little hard to pull off (unarmed fighter dip is your friend).
yea the C/S/P is great until you fight smart opponents, then they just ignore you and you suck.
I like Dragon, Tiger,___. I do dragon for charging and damage then i do tiger for the baby pounce.
also Turtle is bombdigidy if you are a grappler.
I really wish there was a mechanic that forced people to attack you. The C/S/P combo is awesome, but without the ability to provoke opponents, they will soon be wasted styles.
I like Tiger, Dragon, Boar as a damage combo, but focusing purely on offense would make me nervous; monks have a hard time as is keeping up defensively as is. If I were to make a MoMS, I'd try to mix in a few offense and defensive styles. The problem with that is, of course, you only have so many feats, and outside of your bonus feats, you'd have to deal with taking every silly prereq feat for other styles. Not fun.
If your DM allows 3.5 books (PF is supposed to be backwards compatable) then look in Races of Stone and there is a feat, dont have my book available, that allows dwarf/gnome defense training to apply to anything large+ that would be ridiculous paired with the Earth Topple line. redic.
Hmm, Races of Stone, you say? I'll have to check my copy. That sounds intriguing.
If your DM allows 3.5 books (PF is supposed to be backwards compatable) then look in Races of Stone and there is a feat, dont have my book available, that allows dwarf/gnome defense training to apply to anything large+ that would be ridiculous paired with the Earth Topple line. redic.Hmm, Races of Stone, you say? I'll have to check my copy. That sounds intriguing.
Source: Races of Stone
You have been trained to fight larger creatures, and you are adept at dodging their attacks.
Prerequisite: Dodge, racial dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.
Benefit: When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your Dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the Dodge feat.
Special: A fighter may select Titan Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
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Problem is, Boar style requires more than one attack in a round to be useful. Dragon Style also requires more than one attack to be useful (well, first feat is good)
With the loss of Flurry of Blows you don't have multiple attacks (unless going natural attack route) until high lvl or you have to take TWF which is getting Feat intensive
Problem is, Boar style requires more than one attack in a round to be useful. Dragon Style also requires more than one attack to be useful (well, first feat is good)
With the loss of Flurry of Blows you don't have multiple attacks (unless going natural attack route) until high lvl or you have to take TWF which is getting Feat intensive
Were I to focus on Boar or Tiger, I *might* dip into ninja for two levels to pick up the ninja Chi pool. Ninja can spend a point of chi to give themselves an addition attack, provided they're making a full attack. Granted, it's a costly substitute for flurry, but it would help get some extra attacks. I believe that the monk and ninja chi pools would combine.
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Boar seems a waste to me. 2d6 bleed is nice, as is the extra 1d6 later, but on the other hand, having this and Dragon (or whatever) cuases you to lose Flurry.
Why not just pick Dragon style and forget Boar entirely so you can stay staight Monk - you lose the few extra D6 but gain all the extra attacks which are all benefiting from the extra Str bonus from Dragon.
If someone is picking 2 styles and 1 is Boar, it seems to me 1 style and standard Monk is better
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Boar seems a waste to me. 2d6 bleed is nice, as is the extra 1d6 later, but on the other hand, having this and Dragon (or whatever) cuases you to lose Flurry.
Why not just pick Dragon style and forget Boar entirely so you can stay staight Monk - you lose the few extra D6 but gain all the extra attacks which are all benefiting from the extra Str bonus from Dragon.
If someone is picking 2 styles and 1 is Boar, it seems to me 1 style and standard Monk is better
The loss of Flurry is a non issue for MoMS in two basic and awesome cases.
Natural weapon use (which is awesome and can be done for free, changeling + adopted trait) gives you MORE attacks then flurry does with better damage & to hit options to boot.
TWF monks, gives you the same number of attacks at the same bonus and are actually cheaper/more flexible to enchant.
The benefits of mixing these styles together outweigh the cost of losing FoB.
Natural weapon use (which is awesome and can be done for free, changeling + adopted trait) gives you MORE attacks then flurry does with better damage & to hit options to boot.
TWF monks, gives you the same number of attacks at the same bonus and are actually cheaper/more flexible to enchant.
How is using a natural weapon better than flurry? Am I missing something awesome?
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How is using a natural weapon better than flurry? Am I missing something awesome?
Natural weapon use (which is awesome and can be done for free, changeling + adopted trait) gives you MORE attacks then flurry does with better damage & to hit options to boot.
TWF monks, gives you the same number of attacks at the same bonus and are actually cheaper/more flexible to enchant.
Lets take an easy option and play a changeling (Carrion Crown players guide). They start the game with 2 free claw attacks so get to attacks each round at full BaB+Str for 1D4+Str bonus. Take the Adopted trait and pick up the Orc Bite racial attack and they get a 3rd attack at full BaB+str at 1D4+Str Bonus, all of this regardless of whatever class they are.
So at 1st level the go Claw/Claw/Bite for good damage and by third level they have added all the needed style feats to take that damage from good to OMG OP, NERF Monk level.The Flurrying monk doesn't catch up to that number of attacks until 8th level and they will still have a lower BaB since they get a -2 to hit when they flurry, the natural weapon monk doesn't have that penalty.
I do believe Adopted's meaning of Racial Traits means the traits as such what Adopted is, and not the stuff under the list of what a Race can do.
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Lets take an easy option and play a changeling (Carrion Crown players guide). They start the game with 2 free claw attacks so get to attacks each round at full BaB+Str for 1D4+Str bonus. Take the Adopted trait and pick up the Orc Bite racial attack and they get a 3rd attack at full BaB+str at 1D4+Str Bonus, all of this regardless of whatever class they are.
So at 1st level the go Claw/Claw/Bite for good damage and by third level they have added all the needed style feats to take that damage from good to OMG OP, NERF Monk level.The Flurrying monk doesn't catch up to that number of attacks until 8th level and they will still have a lower BaB since they get a -2 to hit when they flurry, the natural weapon monk doesn't have that penalty.
While the essence of Mathwei's post is correct the specifics are wrong. The racial trait (note, not alternate racial trait, but actual trait you can gain from being adopted) half-orcs get makes the bite a secondary attack IIRC. Also the flurrying monk gets to flurry at a full BAB so that quickly (level 5) counters the penalty for twf.
The real power of natural weapon fighting comes from getting all your attacks early and from getting them at full bab rather than iteneratives.
Nope, you are thinking of the Toothy racial trait from the APG, I am referring to the Tusked RACE trait from Orcs of Golarion which has been confirmed is legal for the adopted trait.
As for the Bab Difference between Flurry and TWF, remember it's cheaper for a monk to buy off the penalty for TWF with cash (+2 magic weapons 16 grand) then it is to buy off the Flurry penalty (+2 AoMF 20 grand).
Nope, you are thinking of the Toothy racial trait from the APG, I am referring to the Tusked RACE trait from Orcs of Golarion which has been confirmed is legal for the adopted trait.
Interesting... very interesting.
Interesting... very interesting.
Nope, you are thinking of the Toothy racial trait from the APG, I am referring to the Tusked RACE trait from Orcs of Golarion which has been confirmed is legal for the adopted trait.
Yeah... If this is legal, everyone's free to get the bonus feat of Humans, or even crazier, the SPAs of a Drow Noble.
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Yeah... If this is legal, everyone's free to get the bonus feat of Humans, or even crazier, the SPAs of a Drow Noble.Interesting... very interesting.
Nope, you are thinking of the Toothy racial trait from the APG, I am referring to the Tusked RACE trait from Orcs of Golarion which has been confirmed is legal for the adopted trait.
Nope, all of those are flagged as RACIAL traits which makes them illegal for adopted. The Tusked trait is specifically called out as being a RACE trait (different type) which makes it legal.
Simple difference but the devil is in the details I always say.
I would probably do Nat Attack MoMS/Qinggong monk. You aren't going to be using ki points like a normal monk to get the extra attack (one Nat attack per attack per round) so you could just use the ki points for some of the cool things the qinggon can accomplish.
Yeah... If this is legal, everyone's free to get the bonus feat of Humans, or even crazier, the SPAs of a Drow Noble.Interesting... very interesting.
Nope, you are thinking of the Toothy racial trait from the APG, I am referring to the Tusked RACE trait from Orcs of Golarion which has been confirmed is legal for the adopted trait.
Nope, all of those are flagged as RACIAL traits which makes them illegal for adopted. The Tusked trait is specifically called out as being a RACE trait (different type) which makes it legal.
Simple difference but the devil is in the details I always say.
Could you link me to this Tusked trait? I seem to not be able to find it.
I would probably do Nat Attack MoMS/Qinggong monk. You aren't going to be using ki points like a normal monk to get the extra attack (one Nat attack per attack per round) so you could just use the ki points for some of the cool things the qinggon can accomplish.
If you take the drunken monk archetype, you'll have a near limitless supply of Chi points to use all those nifty powers.