Goblin Squad Member
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I WANT him to be evil, I just don;'t wan't people to KNOW he's evil. Kinda gives it away if he can't join a LG town (he's still be lawful, just not good) but I suppose neutral would do! I guess I'd have to do good stuff to maintain the façade of goodness anyway!
Why not just RP him as evil, even if he's technically just over the border into neutral territory?
I like necromancers because my sense of humour can be morbid, but I can't really play a villain for long; it always ends up with me being an antihero at worst. I make sure to keep control over my animates, and use my power to help good people, as distasteful as they may find my methods. If uncle Joe was killed by hobgoblins, and I animate him to attack those hobgoblins, then he's getting to avenge his own death and protect his family from suffering the same fate he did. At the end of it all, I put the undead Joe down with rays of disrupt undead. Joe was beyond suffering at that point, so it's not like he was harmed.Now if you want to be evil because of necromancy, that could be pretty easy. Just animate as many as you can, command them to stay, go somewhere else, and animate more. As you break your HD cap for animated dead, previously-controlled ones are free from your control and wander off to cause random suffering to whatever living beings they meet. You're not directing them to harm others, but you're still responsible for the suffering they cause due to your gross negligence or criminal mischief.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I WANT him to be evil, I just don;'t wan't peopel to KNOW he's evil. Kinda gives it away if he can't join a LG town (he's still be lawful, just not good) but I suppose neutral would do! I guess I'd have to do good stuff to maintain the facade of goodness anyway!
You can however, be NE, join a TN settlement and then hang out in the other towns in the hypothetical NG nation which that settlement belongs to, and no one would probably be the wiser unless paladins and inquisitors forcibly start detecting alignment on everyone.
I would expect that most settlements would be corner alignments, specifically lawful as the intent seems to be, but nations themselves would be various neutral alignments to help maximize their membership.
So what do you want again?
You don't want PvP
You don't want to be in a guild
You don't want to rely on other people
What I believe he is saying, actually, is that he doesn't want to be REQUIRED to:
- PvP when he doesn't want to, just to see the world presented in the game.
- Be in a guild that is powerful or willing enough to protect him while he explores, instead of one of like-minded individuals that he may get along with much better.
- Rely on other people that are not always available in the limited play time that some of us have to try and accomplish something maybe in the hour or half-hour before work.
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The point is there are TONS of things that I HAVE to do, to get by, survive, make a living, support my family, etc...
I don't want my free-time hobby for fun to be filled with things that aggravate me that I am REQUIRED to do just to be able to play. The simple answer is yes, I can play another game. However, if the answer for too many people is "go play another game", then the makers need to look at whether the numbers going to play another game, based on aggravating in-game requirements, is more than they want to lose as players. Players that will potentially be paying for the product (or aspects of, for the buy perks style).
Thank you, I could not have said it better.
It all really comes down to this, When someone has an equal chance of getting the best stuff in the game by ganking you on your way back to town with your hard earned loot, then lay low for however long they want until they are ready to take their 20 something strong band of murderers to gank another group of four or five, and continue to grow their power base of thugs, whats the point of going to kill that dragon in the lair you just discovered when there is a higher chance of you and your 6 friends getting jumped after you get your loot by 30 people and then losing anything you did not have threaded? Its easier for the pvper to get what they want, the pve crowd is infinitely penalized. the in game systems to get back at your murderer means jack squat when they are unbeatable and are the majority of the people playing on the server.I'm not anti PvP I'm just anti the current vision GW has for it. It just seems to be that GW wants to cater to the hardcore pvp crowd and gank squads regardless of their posts to the contrary, everything laid out for us info wise is not harsh enough to discourage the above scenario. In all honesty, I would not mind if i did not have to lose everything i spent all my free time earning with the exception of the one or two items i could "thread". unless your a member of an elite guild this is going to be the status quo of the game. and thats just not fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you, I could not have said it better.
It all really comes down to this, When someone has an equal chance of getting the best stuff in the game by ganking you on your way back to town with your hard earned loot, then lay low for however long they want until they are ready to take their 20 something strong band of murderers to gank another group of four or five, and continue to grow their power base of thugs, whats the point of going to kill that dragon in the lair you just discovered when there is a higher chance of you and your 6 friends getting jumped after you get your loot by 30 people and then losing anything you did not have threaded? Its easier for...
Basic economics... The gankers do not get 100% of the items from the dungeon, they get a small portion of them.
Which sounds more profitable over time.
Getting a group of 6 together clearing the dungeon collecting 100% of the loot, splitting the profits 6 ways.
Or getting a group of 30 together, camping out the a path, hoping that a group of adventurers is walking by (remember dungeons aren't in the same spot all the time, meaning you can't just camp a path to a dungeon and know a pack of adventurers is going that way). Camping out for 3 hours or so, collecting 20% of the dungeon loot from said adventurers, and then splitting it 30 ways.
Quite frankley seems like quite a bit of waiting, quite a bit of work, for less gain than just going out and finding a dungeon. Being a bandit is far more likely going to be about getting the right timing, finding the perfect weak group, and traveling in very small bands, simply because when you are talking fractions of a characters loot, it simply isn't worth it to overkill and split your already split profits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at the Chartered Company threads. So far, the CCs that will start the game on day one are those dedicated to keeping people safe, or procuring knowledge and allied with those who will keep people safe. I'm fairly confident that the majority of the game will not be CE gankers, and further I know they won't be the most powerful. They'll be facing a wall of penalties, such as lack of higher level skills, inability to trade, etc.
And I think it is a bit insulting to say that "GoblinWorks wants to cater to the hardcore pvp crowd and gank squads regardless of their posts to the contrary". I *highly* doubt that they are lying, and further it makes no economic sense to run their game in that manner. If you can't trust a word the devs say, then discussing the game is impossible, since at that point we don't even know if a game known as PFO is going to be made.
Yeah I find that strange. I know they are still looking at it all, but I think the most popular settlements should be LE/LG/LN so it should be the lawful part that gets the most bonuses as a society not the good/evil.
It's the lawful that is tied to ganking and bad gaming behaviour the good/evil is the game mechanic tied to worshiping gods/necromancy etc.
Woulod be nice if you could be CE and be hiding in the LG setlement, just because your CE does not mean your a raging homicidal maniac all the time, could just mean your overly greedy and power hungry and will stop at nothing to acheive your goals when no one is around to stop you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When someone has an equal chance of getting the best stuff in the game by...
I think the key is that they won't have an equal chance of getting and using the best stuff in the game that way.
Ryan has described numerous ideas for mechanics that make life hard for people who randomly attack others, including making it impossible for them to receive the training necessary to use the best gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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]Not all necromancy counts as evil acts... and maybe the evil of animating mindless skeletons and zombies should be temporary, pending their destruction or release. If you keep animating new ones such that former servitors are released into the wild, you're creating evil, but if you animate a few to fight a few battles, and make sure to destroy any leftovers when you're done, then it's relatively neutral.
Another way to do it is to charge the actions of undead you animated to your alignment account, whether you personally commanded them at the time or not. That would keep people from creating too many too freely, unless they're intentionally trying to populate the world with dangerous monsters that will attack random people, which is unquestionably evil.
The only magic that is good or evil are the spells with that subtype. Making the casting of the spell a good or evil action. That being said sometimes a good person will do evil things to acheive something and vice versa. Also how big of a shift this would cause has yet to be determined.
Look at the Chartered Company threads. So far, the CCs that will start the game on day one are those dedicated to keeping people safe, or procuring knowledge and allied with those who will keep people safe. I'm fairly confident that the majority of the game will not be CE gankers, and further I know they won't be the most powerful. They'll be facing a wall of penalties, such as lack of higher level skills, inability to trade, etc.
And I think it is a bit insulting to say that "GoblinWorks wants to cater to the hardcore pvp crowd and gank squads regardless of their posts to the contrary". I *highly* doubt that they are lying, and further it makes no economic sense to run their game in that manner. If you can't trust a word the devs say, then discussing the game is impossible, since at that point we don't even know if a game known as PFO is going to be made.
Poor choice of wording on my part, My brain to mouth filter is not working, but its not so much i think the devs are lying so much as maybe slightly misguided into thinking their systems will stop griefing ( griefers typically don't care about such things) and are making the game seem to me to be hardcore pvp heaven casuals need not apply. Maybe my perception is skewed. I do tend to look for the worst case scenarios and how things can be exploited. it just seems to easy to maneuver around their policing systems and take advantage of things like in the example i showed with the guild of thieves and the party of adventurers from the dragon's lair. That guild of thieves are not griefing ( because they are not corpse camping) they are doing something allowed by the game mechanics, sure they will get bounties and death curses, but who is going to try to stop them when they are the most powerful and largest group in game? sure they would simply eventually go CE completely and maybe lose any chance of being able to train ( which seems highly unlikely because at that point why would they continue to pay for the game if they can no longer train, and i see no in game reason for them not to be able to train, there are ce people capable of training and working together in teams after all) (edited because i hit submit before i finished my train of thought) I seem to be forgetting one aspect though those pvpers do have to deal with losing their stuff if anyone can ever achieve killing them. My concern is if that does ever happen will it be to little to late for those six adventures that lost all their hard earned loot to continue playing the game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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CE is the alignment of people who just can't fit in to society. Not "a" society, *any* society. They would lose the ability to train worth a darn, and any settlement they build would promptly be burned down by one of the several Chartered Companies dedicated to keeping the game safe. Further, if they can't train and quit the game, *GOOD*. That is the point. And if they try to do an end run around the rules, that is why the rules aren't precisely defined: so that GoblinWorks can just ban the accounts and be done with it.
CE is the alignment of people who just can't fit in to society. Not "a" society, *any* society. They would lose the ability to train worth a darn, and any settlement they build would promptly be burned down by one of the several Chartered Companies dedicated to keeping the game safe. Further, if they can't train and quit the game, *GOOD*. That is the point. And if they try to do an end run around the rules, that is why the rules aren't precisely defined: so that GoblinWorks can just ban the accounts and be done with it.
True but again they should be allowed to have their own settlements, CE alignment has more nuances to it then PFO is currently applying from what i have seen. there have been several PFO modules and adventure paths that have had the adventuring party come across entire organizations and settlements of mixed evil alignment with several CE aligned members in their ranks getting along just fine until their ambition gets the better of them. I know this is not PnP and certain concessions will have to be made, there really is no way to have a perfect carbon copy of the source material, and GW is doing their best to keep it as close as possible.but pigeon holing CE as a KOS can not join any settlement and all is a bit to narrow for my taste, even if all the LG settlements will have paladins kicking down and laying waste to the CE settlements if any ever arisen lol. would be fun to do!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darsch
Non-consensual PvP is not only necessary for the economic system to work and to foster regional markets (risk vs reward of transporting goods), it is allowed in order to stop people from griefing in PvE ways (picking all the flowers your trying to gather, using a group of characters to affect your ability to target enemies in combat, the list goes on...).
Random Player Killing, however, is discouraged. Those CE characters will quickly learn that life sucks when you run around killing everybody, and will either change their ways or leave the game. That is acceptable to me.
Griefing, however, is not tolerated. The devs have stated many times that griefers will not find a home in PFO (like they did in darkfall, UO, etc) and will be banned from playing.
@Darsch
Non-consensual PvP is not only necessary for the economic system to work and to foster regional markets (risk vs reward of transporting goods), it is allowed in order to stop people from griefing in PvE ways (picking all the flowers your trying to gather, using a group of characters to affect your ability to target enemies in combat, the list goes on...).
Random Player Killing, however, is discouraged. Those CE characters will quickly learn that life sucks when you run around killing everybody, and will either change their ways or leave the game. That is acceptable to me.
Griefing, however, is not tolerated. The devs have stated many times that griefers will not find a home in PFO (like they did in darkfall, UO, etc) and will be banned from playing.
yeah I am worrying less and less about the griefers as I post and read more on the forums. And i ohh so hate it when i have to kill a mob to get to my ore i want to mine and someone runs up and takes it while i kill the mobs. That has lead to more then one train of mobs on the person with me leading them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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True but again they should be allowed to have their own settlements...
They will be allowed to have their own Settlements. It's just that those Settlements won't be as efficient as more "orderly" Settlements.
I am worrying less and less about the griefers as I post and read more on the forums.
I wish I could post that in bright flashing neon every time someone says something similar. I remember when I first said something along those lines, and I've seen a lot more of this sentiment than I have of the "I've read up on everything and am still convinced PFO is going to be a gank-fest" variety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the key thing to point out is that being a ganker, and killing people for their stuff will result in an inability to USE that stuff to its full potential.
But something just occurred to me...How does it apply to magic users? Are spells also tied to your weaponry in some way? Or are we relying on the limited use of spells?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How does it apply to magic users? Are spells also tied to your weaponry in some way? Or are we relying on the limited use of spells?
Interesting question.
My first thought is that there will be a requirement to use Training Facilities to learn the most powerfull spells, just like there is a requirement to use Training Facilities in order to use the most powerful gear.
Another thought is that they might make Spells more powerful if you have the proper Wand/Staff/Focus equipped.
True but again they should be allowed to have their own settlements...They will be allowed to have their own Settlements. It's just that those Settlements won't be as efficient as more "orderly" Settlements.
I am worrying less and less about the griefers as I post and read more on the forums.I wish I could post that in bright flashing neon every time someone says something similar. I remember when I first said something along those lines, and I've seen a lot more of this sentiment than I have of the "I've read up on everything and am still convinced PFO is going to be a gank-fest" variety.
Sweet. I'm all for play how you want no limitations as long as your actions don't hurt someone's good time ( with in reason of course, no one likes to lose after all but that is just something you have to get over.)
There are good anti grief systems in place, good risk vs reward, and good ideas, the ban hammer can ultimately fix all issues i suppose. Still concerned about death causing item loss and am still anti item loss, even with it compared to stopping the loot pinata effect and your "endgame" gear being obsolete in a few weeks/months at some point even in PFO they will eventually have to add a higher tier of gear. things stagnate if nothing new is done. If the new gear takes awhile to come and is not insanely inflated in states like other mmos i think i can support the loss of items on death.
How does it apply to magic users? Are spells also tied to your weaponry in some way? Or are we relying on the limited use of spells?Interesting question.
My first thought is that there will be a requirement to use Training Facilities to learn the most powerful spells, just like there is a requirement to use Training Facilities in order to use the most powerful gear.
Another thought is that they might make Spells more powerful if you have the proper Wand/Staff/Focus equipped.
i was under the impression the spells will be spell books and holy symbols that take a weapon slot to use.
taken from A Three-Headed Hydra
posted by Ryan Dancey on Wednesday, October 24, 2012
Part Three: The Combat System
Refresh Slots
Most combat abilities that are not tied to weapons are Refresh abilities, and they're placed in slots 7–10. These are things like spells, rage abilities, etc. If a character has a spellbook equipped, it can go into one of these slots; activating the spellbook turns all weapon slots into spell slots determined by the spellbook. Wizards will have to find and equip different spellbooks to get access to different spells, with some books being more valuable or rare than others
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Goblin Squad Member
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i was under the impression the spells will be spell books and holy symbols that take a weapon slot to use.
I'm not 100% clear on this, so I might well be wrong in some of the details, but I think it's going to work like this:
Wizards and Sorcerers will both have a number of "known spells".
Wizards and Sorcerers will each have some number of "spells per day" equivalent that isn't really "per day".
Wizards will have to prepare their "spells per day" from their "known spells". Sorcerers will have access to their entire list of "known spells".
Wizards will also be able to equip Spellbooks that give them additional spells that they can cast without preparing them. Sorcerers do not have access to these Spellbooks.
Again, this is largely speculation on my part.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i was under the impression the spells will be spell books and holy symbols that take a weapon slot to use.I'm not 100% clear on this, so I might well be wrong in some of the details, but I think it's going to work like this:
Wizards and Sorcerers will both have a number of "known spells".
Wizards and Sorcerers will each have some number of "spells per day" equivalent that isn't really "per day".
Wizards will have to prepare their "spells per day" from their "known spells". Sorcerers will have access to their entire list of "known spells".
Wizards will also be able to equip Spellbooks that give them additional spells that they can cast without preparing them. Sorcerers do not have access to these Spellbooks.
Again, this is largely speculation on my part.
I wouldnt mind actually have the spell's per day limit similar to the pen and paper version of pathfinder. Especially considering a full day would be at most 1 hour and would lead to managing your spells. An example I only have one fireball so I save that for a large group instead of using that one spell on every enemy i see. Or i die from encoutering a red dragon and die because i only have fire spells memorized or learned. Would lead to some strategic thinking I believe but could be wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldnt mind actually have the spell's per day limit similar to the pen and paper version of pathfinder. Especially considering a full day would be at most 1 hour and would lead to managing your spells. An example I only have one fireball so I save that for a large group instead of using that one spell on every enemy i see. Or i die from encoutering a red dragon and die because i only have fire spells memorized or learned. Would lead to some strategic thinking I believe but could be wrong.
PFO world time is 4x normal time. So a day is 6 hours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO world time is 4x normal time. So a day is 6 hours.
They've said 6-hour day and they've also said 4-hour day...
From: A Three-Headed Hydra.
We're also creating a Refresh system. Characters can use particular abilities a certain number of times per four-hour in-game day, or until the player uses a Refresh—a special action characters take to refocus, rest, and regain abilities.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What really worries me about this is how this will be reinforced. Will the accused be given a chance to defend himself?
The reason I ask, is because I am a active RP-PvPer. Currently I often occupy the outlaws den in SWTOR, claiming it as my own. I often get complaints for killing people there, even though I issue them a warning that it is under my protection. Some times people fight for it, some times I lose and I reluctantly pull back. For the most parts though they rage and starts shouting at me, either for IC reasons or OOC ones.
A few months back me and my Mandalorian clan got into open war with another clan. They were all very loud and proud of themselves, until they got defeated. Sense they have been VERY paranoid. Claiming we single them out in warzones and the like to spoil their fun. Which I can assure you we do not.
I also play kind of a rogue. A violent and foul mouthed individual at times, quick to resort to violence. However this is just me playing a character.
In all these instances I have acted in character and within the games rules. Yet without context this could appear like griefing. Indeed, I have been accused of just that numerous times. Luckily the MMO's I've occupied have been pretty forgiving on these matters.
However hearing that Pathfinder online shall be pretty harsh on the matter intimidates me. Me and my friends love RP and PVP, along with the thrill it gives us. We will play outlaws, swords for hire and will fight to obtain what we desire. But if it is not given to us freely we shall take it by force.
However this may lead to us being reported by someone who took a single kill to his character to personal, or something along those lines. Is there anything being done to prevent this from happening?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darsch
Non-consensual PvP is not only necessary for the economic system to work and to foster regional markets (risk vs reward of transporting goods), it is allowed in order to stop people from griefing in PvE ways (picking all the flowers your trying to gather, using a group of characters to affect your ability to target enemies in combat, the list goes on...).
Excellent point, I never thought of that this way, very interesting... You're indeed correct in your statement.
What really worries me about this is how this will be reinforced. Will the accused be given a chance to defend himself?
Yes
...Currently I often occupy the outlaws den in SWTOR, claiming it as my own...
Camping a location may be a form of griefing, though camping your settlement or protecting something your have rights to won't be. If you are in unsettled areas the rules will be a lot more open.
A few months back me and my Mandalorian clan got into open war with another clan...Sense they have been VERY paranoid. Claiming we single them out in warzones and the like to spoil their fun.
A declared war between 2 settlements is totally legal and supported by the rules. Constant complaining to GMs about getting griefed/ganked will result in investigation. If their complaints are unfounded they could be penalized by the GMs for griefing you (and the GMs)
In all these instances I have acted in character and within the games rules...
Acting IC may not be a viable explanation or excuse certain forms of behavior.
But I could be wrong - The game is still sorting this stuff out.|
Goblin Squad Member
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@Moridian
I wouldn't be too worried, expect to be able to do everything you are talking about without OOG consequence.
I'm guessing 5 things may get you banned:
1. Hacking your client
2. Exploiting a bug above and beyond 'testing to see exactly how it works'
3. Endlessly hunting down a single player that stands no chance against you, no matter where they are(and not having a bounty contract)
4. Swarming starting zones
5. NC-17 or RL-Racist language
Don't worry at all about a single person's report having an effect on you, that is never the case in any game(Except for botting reports). From what I have seen, the PnP and RP crowds have a high concentration of people who take things way to personally and want to controll everything that happends to them. I fully expect GW to be able to tell the difference between someone throwing a tantrum, and a legitimate report(Hint: one uses proper grammar, provides detailed explanations, and isn't obviously written in fury an never spellchecked)
Griefing is a hot button issue, and I expect it to remain one for a long time. Some people think any action that reduces their own personal fun is griefing, and I think those people need to disconnect their internet and learn some empathy. I could really care less what someone does in the game, as long as it doesn't involve exploiting an unintended game mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
From what I have seen, the PnP and RP crowds have a high concentration of people who take things way to personally and want to controll everything that happends to them. ...
I don't believe we can justifiably make that assertion, Val. I don't think most PnP/RP enthusiasts post here at all.
It kinda should end up like the wild west.
If they allow it, I'll be packing 2 .45 LC revolvers. If not I'll have to make due with 4 daggers and a short sword or two. :p
Either way I can't wait to play! ;)