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I.e., can a barbarian who becomes lawful alignment (for any reason, whether voluntarily to temporarily learn a multiclass, or involuntarily - losing his ability to rage for the duration) and then ceases being lawful alignment resume raging?
....now stop rolling those eyes at me like that -- this is actually a serious issue.
Is it really harder to stay being a barbarian now than it is to stay being a paladin?
(Ex-ex-monks have the same problem, btw.)
I agree with the person who said that if it doesn't mention how to get it back, you can't.
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By a strict interpretation of the rules, no. Rage is lost forever. So using a helm of opposite alignment to make a barbarian Lawful is a possible tactic to rob him of his abilities. Doing the same to a monk is less effective initially, but does bar him from ever gaining further monk powers.
This is why I chuck alignment. And don't play PFS.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Is it really harder to stay being a barbarian now than it is to stay being a paladin?
Now there's an interesting point; Paladins can always do an Atonement. It would be interesting to think that a Barbarian would suffer a more permanent loss than a Paladin.
(Ex-ex-monks have the same problem, btw.)
Monks don't actually lose any class abilities when they become non-lawful. (Check the very last sentence of the class description.)
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BBT is correct.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.
I believe the 'ex-class' entry could be considered a class feature, allowing ex-barbarians and ex-monks to take levels in their class again. Pedantic DMs may thwart you however.
BBT is correct.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.I believe the 'ex-class' entry could be considered a class feature, allowing ex-barbarians and ex-monks to take levels in their class again. Pedantic DMs may thwart you however.
Stop reading the rules.
You had the hopes of Castys everywhere up.
I.e., can a barbarian who becomes lawful alignment (for any reason, whether voluntarily to temporarily learn a multiclass, or involuntarily - losing his ability to rage for the duration) and then ceases being lawful alignment resume raging?
....now stop rolling those eyes at me like that -- this is actually a serious issue.
Is it really harder to stay being a barbarian now than it is to stay being a paladin?
(Ex-ex-monks have the same problem, btw.)
I'm confused where you think it says that Barbarians lose their rage if they become lawful.
In fact I'm also confused where it says that Paladins lose any paladin related ability if they are magically turned unlawful. If such thing happens they still have not committed a violation of their code, and if they did it would be unwillingly so it still would not effect them.
I don't know about monks, never play em and never even seen one in a game.
The last section under Barbarian:
Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becmes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. She retains all other benefits of the class.
The last section under Monk:
Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.
The last section under Paladin:
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
Removed a post. Keep it clean please.
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The last section under Barbarian:
Ex-Barbarians
A barbarian who becmes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. She retains all other benefits of the class.The last section under Monk:
Ex-Monks
A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.The last section under Paladin:
Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
(Thanks.)
The listing of additional requirements for paladins implies that other classes are not under similar requirements (because their class text does not incorporate similar text). One is left, then, with two conclusions:
a) the classes are more "strict" than paladin or cleric (i.e., they have no way back), or....
b) the classes are less strict than paladin or cleric; and abilities and leveling may be resumed automatically if an applicable alignment is accepted once again by the PC.
-- IMNSHO, choice a) is a no-sale.
You need to update your PDF. Look at the PRD, it is just as bob quoted.
I myself would not allow atonement to restore your class features.
Neither my hard copy book nor my PDF file under Barbarian says anything about ex Barbarians so I would seriously be challenging any GM about any alignment changes.
Ex-barbarians are mentioned on page 34 of the PDF and Core Rulebook. Classes that have alignment restrictions usually have a comment about what happens when their alignment changes at the end of the section on the class.
Neither my hard copy book nor my PDF file under Barbarian says anything about ex Barbarians so I would seriously be challenging any GM about any alignment changes. I've also never seen an actual errata page on these forums so unless there is a direct errata that clarifies everything without having to search and search then it's not valid.
Err.. there's an errata download listed on the pathfinder product page: here
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You need to update your PDF. Look at the PRD, it is just as bob quoted. I myself would not allow atonement to restore your class features.
Why? That is precisely what Atonement exists for (provided, of course that it's even necessary in the first place--with that also being a matter of some dispute).
Because you did not break a vow with a god or a divine creature. You altered your personality to such an extent you no longer have the mental requirements.
You can disagree but I would not allow the spell to bypass you violating your Al as long as you still are in violation.
Seeker has his own style of play. I'm guessing this one is to discourage 'munchkin' multiclassing
Actually multiclassing has always been rare in games I have run. I have never tried to discourage it, but it is just not something I have seen much at all. In the case above it has nothing to do with "munchkin" and everything to do with the classes just do not work well together. You can't rage if Lawful as your mind is to well organized and if you are not lawful you do not have the mental discipline to pull off monk tricks.
Heh I wasn't trying. But under the rules you can't be lawful and be a barbarian and must be lawful to be a monk. And the only way you can really be an ex of those is to do just that.
Its not anything I did, it is the way the classes are written.
LOl, yeah. But then you lose the monk stuff for being non-lawful. The two classes just do not mix well.
Just go Martial artist and your all good with being a non lawful monk anyways.
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Just go Martial artist and your all good with being a non lawful monk anyways.
Yes, but I do kind of like the idea of a monk 'giving in to the dark side' and learning to use his inner fury.
Or just roleplaying it as a Tranquil Fury while still being a monk.
The Goodman Games 'Power Gamers Guide to Warriors' showed the advantages of such a multiclass too. Love that book.
Good point, I was mis recalling the rule. Mixing the ex-barb with the ex-monk entry.
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You can disagree but I would not allow the spell to bypass you violating your Al as long as you still are in violation.The "given" of the OP is that the character is no longer in violation (i.e., the barbarian is no longer lawful alignment).
The Goodman Games 'Power Gamers Guide to Warriors' showed the advantages of such a multiclass too. Love that book.
I normally enjoy talking about that sort of stuff as much as anyone else, but I posted this in the Rules forum to confine responses to Paizo core.
Shrug, I wouldn't allow it to work for a non-divine class. No one grants you the power you lost and it seems out of thew scope of the spell for me.
Just to ask Seeker what is the reasoning behind Paladins, Clerics, being a spell away from being all good if hit with a reverse alignment but not the monk or Barb under the same circumstances?
To me the spell is made for divine classes to ask for forgiveness. It pretty much says so.
Monks and Barbs are not granted power from a god and do not need to atone for breaking a rule. They simply must follow the Al of the class.If they break it they need to deal with it.
School abjuration; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 5, inquisitor 5; Domain purity 5
CASTINGCasting Time 1 hour
Components V, S, M (burning incense), F (a set of prayer beads or other prayer device worth at least 500 gp), DF
EFFECTRange touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.
Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.
Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.
Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, regardless of the actual alignment in question.
Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.
Notice how pissing your God off is different than losing a class feature from alignment which even says other classes. Per RAW and I'll even go so far as to say per RAI Atonement works on anyclass which would lose abilities based on Alignment.
** spoiler omitted **...
The spell is very clear. Talonhawke is correct.
Shrug, I simply said I would not allow it to bypass.