So when a PC starts out as a level 1 character, how remarkable are they?
It seemed like there was some effort put into making man on the street NPCs range in levels between 1-5 back in the day. However I like the idea of achieving 1st level making you already a somewhat heroic figure - meaning, most people are 0 level and competent folks are 1st level, and really heroic folks are 3rd level. The rest are true heroes and monsters, short in supply but dangerous to cross.
I am still relatively new to Pathfinder and I dont get a sense of the level of the Average Joe in adventure path / Golarion. Can someone explain?
Most people are 1st level commoners. Some skilled professionals (say, a good blacksmith are 1st level experts and some that's seen a lot (say, a bartender) might be 2nd level commoners. Professional soldiers are mostly 1st level warriors.
However, as you gain levels, you deal with less and less of the "most people" crowd. Already at level one in most campaigns you're more likely to deal with the bartender and the guard captain (warrior 2) than with the fisher, the weaver and the tanner (which might be 1st level commoners). At 3rd level you mostly deal with "common people" if you already have some well-established relation with them or they're merchants or the like - most of the people you notice will be stuff like the baron (4th level aristocrat), the forest warden (3rd level ranger) and people like that.
Due to this, it often seems "most people" are higher level than what they are.
NPC classes are also not as powerful as PC classes so a 3rd level PC will ALWAYS get the better of a 3rd level commoner.
If you want to get a better feeling for the uniqueness of the PCs even at level 1 take a look at their ability scores. Usually NPCs don't go beyond 13-14 in their primary score...
I recently posted an analysis of this for non-adventuring characters on a per-race basis in another thread. The theory behind the math is based upon the old adage that "you learn something new every day".
Long story short, the rules as written (RAW) don't really have a whole lot to say on the matter. As with many matters that are relevant to setting, it seems that much of this is left to the purview of the GM or setting.
If you are interested in my own 100% non-RAW findings (which are part and parcel of my own setting), you can find them in this thread.
Just another viewpoint to consider...
Oh, and personally, I usually give one level per age category. Since few live to be more than middle-aged, that still means it's a low-level world.
Most NPCs for Paizo range have an average range of 3~9 with exceptional NPCs generally going up to level 12.
The 'average' as in 'most common' level is 2: Farmers are level 1 commoner level 1 experts and even barmaids are level 2 commoners.
Most NPCs for Paizo range have an average range of 3~9 with exceptional NPCs generally going up to level 12.
The 'average' as in 'most common' level is 2: Farmers are level 1 commoner level 1 experts and even barmaids are level 2 commoners.
Dang. Didn't know that. 2nd level for just anything? Sounds wrong to me. Nevermind, I prefer the 2-14 range golarion seems to be going for to the 1-28 range that faerun went for.
Yeah realize that the 'average' isn't going to be seen much by the PCs though -- after all they tend to move higher in circles as they do more important things.
However I don't feel level 2 is all that special. After all our above farmer is still looking at dying in one hit and has no BAB (as well as lackluster saves). For the most part he's still very fragile.
This also helps armor (base armor) look better in context of the world. You put a guy in full plate and that farmer knows he's not hitting him. Just a breastplate and a shield and his chances still aren't good.
Here is a thread where I did a thought exercise on the average village.
Do remember that the NPC guide stats are just there as examples for a surprised GM to pull out of his ass when the players begin to start brawls in taverns and kill the kind old farmer that they were supposed to help.
Not all farmers are Expert 1/Commoner 1, although I can't really see how even the toughest old farmer could be more than level four or five.
Do remember that the NPC guide stats are just there as examples for a surprised GM to pull out of his ass when the players begin to start brawls in taverns and kill the kind old farmer that they were supposed to help.
Not all farmers are Expert 1/Commoner 1, although I can't really see how even the toughest old farmer could be more than level four or five.
I think they are more than that: They are easy examples and continue to jive with everything else that Paizo puts out in its APs and the like.
Now I'll freely admit that this isn't, "The One Way It Must Be Done!" but it follows in what Paizo to date has done and seems intent on continuing to do.
I keep skimming the topic title as "What level are the Indiana Jones?"
To answer your actual topic, I'd say 1. Maybe higher in some towns if it's a town that places emphases high skill artisans or well-trained guards, and thus bumps the average up even for those that are lvl 1.
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I know some don't agree with how I think about things like this, but:
If you become an adult and are a level 1 commoner farmer, (all else being equal) you probably aren't as good at is as you father who has been doing it for at least the last 15 years. So he would have to be at least 2nd or 3rd level minimum. This system has no way to get better at your job without gaining a level. Since people that have been doing a job for a while are noticibly better, they have to be higher level.
So I use young adult just starting as level 1 npc class.
Farmer just starting, level 1 commoner.
Journey man carpenter, level 1 expert.
New recruit to an average town guard, level 1 warrior.
Been doing the job 3-5 years level 2-3 npc.
Fisherman who has been managing well enough to start a family, level 2 commoner.
Blacksmith with his own shop, level 3 expert.
Soldier that has seen some action and been in for a few years, level 2 warrior.
Been doing the job 5+ years then level 3-4 npc.
Farmer that is doing well enough to split his land amongst his sons, level 3 commoner.
Master jeweler with his own apprentices and a journeyman in training, level 4 expert.
Elite vetran troops that have been in numerous conflicts, level 3 warrior.
I usually figure each level has 2x the next higher level. If you work out the math, 75% of the population are levels 1-3. 20th level characters really are 1 in a million.
I've read an essay once that said that most people in our world are most likely level 1 or 2, with level 5 being basicly the pinacle of what humans are capable of.
Albert Einstein for example could very well be a level 5 expert with 18 int and skill focus (physics) and other stuff like that. Getting 15 ranks isn't so hard if you really try (4 int, 3 class, 3 skillfocus, 5 ranks) and allows you to take 10 to answer DC 25 questions (DC 20 to 30 is clasified as "really tough questions") and with a 20 on his roll for a total of 35 he could come up with truely awesome stuff like his "theory of relativity"
And yes, just by having a PC class and not a NPC class it already sets PCs square above normal humans.
Also most humans have the base npc stat array (13,12,11,10,9,8), which basicly is 3 pt buy so that too makes even the weakest PCs alot better already.
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I've read an essay once that said that most people in our world are most likely level 1 or 2, with level 5 being basicly the pinacle of what humans are capable of.
Albert Einstein for example could very well be a level 5 expert with 18 int and skill focus (physics) and other stuff like that. Getting 15 ranks isn't so hard if you really try (4 int, 3 class, 3 skillfocus, 5 ranks) and allows you to take 10 to answer DC 25 questions (DC 20 to 30 is clasified as "really tough questions") and with a 20 on his roll for a total of 35 he could come up with truely awesome stuff like his "theory of relativity"And yes, just by having a PC class and not a NPC class it already sets PCs square above normal humans.
Also most humans have the base npc stat array (13,12,11,10,9,8), which basicly is 3 pt buy so that too makes even the weakest PCs alot better already.
Quatar to click my link.
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I keep skimming the topic title as "What level are the Indiana Jones?"
To answer your actual topic, I'd say 1. Maybe higher in some towns if it's a town that places emphases high skill artisans or well-trained guards, and thus bumps the average up even for those that are lvl 1.
I immediately presumed G.I. Joe greenshirts and thought someone was going to try it for Modern Path.
Quatar to click my link.I've read an essay once that said that most people in our world are most likely level 1 or 2, with level 5 being basicly the pinacle of what humans are capable of.
Albert Einstein for example could very well be a level 5 expert with 18 int and skill focus (physics) and other stuff like that. Getting 15 ranks isn't so hard if you really try (4 int, 3 class, 3 skillfocus, 5 ranks) and allows you to take 10 to answer DC 25 questions (DC 20 to 30 is clasified as "really tough questions") and with a 20 on his roll for a total of 35 he could come up with truely awesome stuff like his "theory of relativity"And yes, just by having a PC class and not a NPC class it already sets PCs square above normal humans.
Also most humans have the base npc stat array (13,12,11,10,9,8), which basicly is 3 pt buy so that too makes even the weakest PCs alot better already.
Thank you, that's exactly the one I was refering to actually!
Read it, it's really super interesting and puts things a bit in perspective what it actually means to be 10th level or even higher.
In the fantasy world, a lot of people are levels 1-12 in NPC classes. They can survive a lot. Some can even survive being breathed on by a dragon.
In the real world, a lot of people are level 1. They can barely survive a gunshot without DR.
In the fantasy world, a lot of people are levels 1-12 in NPC classes. They can survive a lot. Some can even survive being breathed on by a dragon.
In the real world, a lot of people are level 1. They can barely survive a gunshot without DR.
Um... no. The major thing that kills isn't the injury, it's the continuous lost of blood, shock and infection after the injury.
In fact most times if treated promptly your chances of survival are very high.
In your own world, it would depend on the type of campaign you want to run. Within DnD, there are several systems, all rolled into a different package. There's grit fantasy, high fantasy, and what you might call superhero.
Golarion's something different, though. From 2-12 sounds about right for it, which runs you from grit to high in most areas, with epic being rather rare.
In the fantasy world, a lot of people are levels 1-12 in NPC classes. They can survive a lot. Some can even survive being breathed on by a dragon.
In the real world, a lot of people are level 1. They can barely survive a gunshot without DR.
Um... no. The major thing that kills isn't the injury, it's the continuous lost of blood, shock and infection after the injury.
In fact most times if treated promptly your chances of survival are very high.
I was accounting for treatment and bleeding out in my anecdote. A rifle in Pathfinder rules does a 1d10, right? So, average damage knocks a commoner (avg citizen) down to -2 of 11 Con, or a warrior (police officer) to 1 out of 13 Con. The cop probably is going to be okay, but a commoner might be hard pressed to stabilize. If the rifle rocks a full 12, the commoner is -9 out of -11 and will die in 2 rounds unless they roll a natural 20 stabilize, and the warrior is -7 out of -13 and is in seriously critical condition. But they can both be completely fine if a trained medical technician is there with a healer's kit and they're not in combat.
If they roll a 1 for damage, it's a graze, and everyone can survive that with minimal life risk.
Meanwhile, a level 12 expert has probably got 54 hit points and can easily take an adult red dragon's breath weapon to the face without being overly concerned by it.
EDIT: Got a 12 with mental math including Point Blank Shot and a +1 enhancement. Maybe magic weapons don't exist in modern days. Up to the reader's suspension of disbelief. : )
So when a PC starts out as a level 1 character, how remarkable are they?
It seemed like there was some effort put into making man on the street NPCs range in levels between 1-5 back in the day. However I like the idea of achieving 1st level making you already a somewhat heroic figure - meaning, most people are 0 level and competent folks are 1st level, and really heroic folks are 3rd level. The rest are true heroes and monsters, short in supply but dangerous to cross.
I am still relatively new to Pathfinder and I dont get a sense of the level of the Average Joe in adventure path / Golarion. Can someone explain?
The Pathfinder: Campaign Setting book can help.
Page 253; 2nd Column; 2nd Paragraph:Power LevelsI'm not sure if I'm allowed to post a reference straight from the book, so I won't post the actual levels. If this is to the contrary please inform me so I can post it OR could someone else please post the "NPC Levels" for lynnfredricks?
BTW This book is an excellent source and read for general knowledge of Golarion!
Rom
One thing that can help with the simple facts of levels being tied to prowess and hp (as Ice Titan points out) is to handle the hp of non-adventuring NPCs differently.
You could perhaps still do full hp at 1st level, but then award minimum HP for subsequent levels. Given the slow rate at which non-adventurers should accumulate levels, the Constitution penalties from aging should help to keep things fairly believable. Assuming Con 10, that would tone down the level 12 expert from 54 to just 19 hp.
I was accounting for treatment and bleeding out in my anecdote. A rifle in Pathfinder rules does a 1d10, right? So, average damage knocks a commoner (avg citizen) down to -2 of 11 Con, or a warrior (police officer) to 1 out of 13 Con. The cop probably is going to be okay, but a commoner might be hard pressed to stabilize. If the rifle rocks a full 12, the commoner is -9 out of -11 and will die in 2 rounds unless they roll a natural 20 stabilize, and the warrior is -7 out of -13 and is in seriously critical condition. But they can both be completely fine if a trained medical technician is there with a healer's kit and they're not in combat.If they roll a 1 for damage, it's a graze, and everyone can survive that with minimal life risk.
Meanwhile, a level 12 expert has probably got 54 hit points and can easily take an adult red dragon's breath weapon to the face without being overly concerned by it.
EDIT: Got a 12 with mental math including Point Blank Shot and a +1 enhancement. Maybe magic weapons don't exist in modern days. Up to the reader's suspension of disbelief. : )
Meh the 'average' farmer has a level of both commoner and expert and has 10 hp... the bullet itself is unlikely to kill him... though the treatment might.
Most NPCs for Paizo range have an average range of 3~9 with exceptional NPCs generally going up to level 12.
The 'average' as in 'most common' level is 2: Farmers are level 1 commoner level 1 experts and even barmaids are level 2 commoners.
That is interesting - and look at those examples - it does seem the man on the street is anywhere from levels 1-3, and up.
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Well the exp award guidelines give exp for anything from role playing out an encounter to killing something to successfully disarming traps and what not. It seems on a lesser scale NPCs still do this stuff all the time.
Quest: Get goods to town to sell.
RP: Get Peggy Sue to marry you.
Combat++: Get that damn sow in the barn without killing anyone or injuring the pig.
Yeah I know this isn't heavy handed stuff and is generally handled by a skill roll... for PCs... but it still can be challenging stuff and does have an impact as exp I'm sure.
Townsfolk will be looking to avoid fines for littering or loitering or not getting mugged (perhaps beating the mugger up).
Again not nearly as 'hardcore' as an adventurer... but then life is an adventure even for those not looting dead goblins.
... Meh the 'average' farmer has a level of both commoner and expert and has 10 hp... the bullet itself is unlikely to kill him... though the treatment might.
Might just be me, but I would not give the 'average' farmer levels of expert. Just levels of commoner. Commoner is the common people. In a medival type society, most of the people will have to be farmers just to feed everyone else. So that would be the common commoner. them and general day laborers.
Now I would also say there would be some better than average farmers who have a level of expert, but not most of them.
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I go by the guideline that the most powerful people in a given large settlement are usually around 10th or 11th. There are never more than four or five of these people in a settlement of thousands.
Moderately experienced people (3nd-4th) are probably the most common, with untrained workers, apprentices and journeymen (1st-2nd) being numerous also. Anyone 5th or above is probably an overseer of others, head of a guild, owner of a large business, or attained some rank in an army or some title in a church, etc. I'd say about 5-10% of a large settlement is above 5th level.
I never liked the "most people are first level" approach. Everyday workers advance quite a bit in real life. Although attack bonus being tied to level does create some strange effects, I am sort of better off in a fistfight today than I was 10 years ago, with no training other than life experience making up the difference.
I've been doing what Paizo seem to do with their NPCs, give most of them roughly 2-4 levels, give or take.
The great equalizer here, is the ability arrays. The average PC is working off the elite array (at least) or even a whopping 20 point buy. This goes a LONG, LONG way. They also get a lot of bonuses such as max hp at first level, favored class bonuses and their numerous class features that let them stand toe to toe with NPC classes of any level.
I think that the great equaliser here are hit-points. A wizard with, say, 12 Con and a favored class bonus is looking at 8hp at first level, before any bonuses. The first level fighter might have 14 Con for 13hp.
By contrast, most NPCs built on the bassic array would have 10-11 Con. As they advance in age, this could become a penalty (cancelling out their hit-die, somewhat). At first level, the commoner has 3hp, and the warrior has 5, possibly 6. At fourth, the commoner has 12 and the warrior has 20, possibly 24. (by contrast, the wizard has 23 and the fighter has 37).
Another thing I see Paizo do is give many of their NPCs sub-optimal multiclass choices. For instance, Ameiko Kaijitsu is a aristocrat/1, bard/3, rogue/1... with a whopping +2BAB. She stands fairly equal with a PC of half of her level in terms of power. By contrast, the most powerful NPCs, such as Belor Hemlock (Fighter/4) are given more powerful class choices and levels in a single PC class, and let's face it... Fighter/4th is tasty.
... Meh the 'average' farmer has a level of both commoner and expert and has 10 hp... the bullet itself is unlikely to kill him... though the treatment might.Might just be me, but I would not give the 'average' farmer levels of expert. Just levels of commoner. Commoner is the common people. In a medival type society, most of the people will have to be farmers just to feed everyone else. So that would be the common commoner. them and general day laborers.
Now I would also say there would be some better than average farmers who have a level of expert, but not most of them.
Farming is an expert profession -- at least if you don't want to die a horrible starving death.
Every time someone has tried to go and make it just the 'commoner anyone can do it' thing countries have starved.
To me 1st level PCs always represented basic training. Like you're just out of boot camp and have some idea of what you're supposed to do but no actual practical experience. I call 1-10 Adventurer Levels. Where things are relatively down to earth. 11-20 are the Hero Levels. Where you're one of the exceptional few. Like one of the heros out of Greek mythology. The 21-30 is Epic Levels (semi-divine) and 31-40 are God Levels. Goes in nice 10 level blocks that way. Most everyday people would be between 1st level in my games. With up to 5th being fairly common. That's how I do it at least.
If you become an adult and are a level 1 commoner farmer, (all else being equal) you probably aren't as good at is as you father who has been doing it for at least the last 15 years. So he would have to be at least 2nd or 3rd level minimum. This system has no way to get better at your job without gaining a level. Since people that have been doing a job for a while are noticibly better, they have to be higher level.
I agree with this. Upon reaching adulthood everyone is 1st level. All adult humanoids have at least one level. Only children are 0 level.
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Honestly the entire concept of 0th level is one of the dumbest I've ever heard.
You know what happens at 0th level? You're dead. That's it, when your levels - negative energy levels equal 0 you are dead, probably getting up as undead.
Having children by 1st level simply makes more sense, with adults being second level.
The fact adventurers start as 1st level is also completely inane in my opinion.
... Farming is an expert profession -- at least if you don't want to die a horrible starving death.
Every time someone has tried to go and make it just the 'commoner anyone can do it' thing countries have starved.
Yes and no. In relatively modern times it is an expert profession. In ye olden times I would say it was not. Feudalistic societies actively tried to keep the serfs as ignorant as possible. They didn't want them to know anything that wasn't absolutely necessary to just barely perform the directives they were given. That is part of the reason it took so many serf farmers to support a very small aristocracy.
The meger 3 skill points per level would be about correct for people kept purposely ignorant.
Yes and no. In relatively modern times it is an expert profession. In ye olden times I would say it was not. Feudalistic societies actively tried to keep the serfs as ignorant as possible. They didn't want them to know anything that wasn't absolutely necessary to just barely perform the directives they were given. That is part of the reason it took so many serf farmers to support a very small aristocracy.
The meger 3 skill points per level would be about correct for people kept purposely ignorant.
I agree in a realist setting but this is very much a fantasy setting. If you want an authentic and realistic medieval fantasy setting play Ars Magica.
The analogy I like to use is:
Graduated high school, or something similar by cultural (warrior training, hunting, basic training, taking over the farm); 1st level.
2nd: Experienced...college grad, seen combat veteran, experienced tradesman.
3rd: Skilled tradesman; elite combat veteran; Master's degree education in whatever field/equivalent.
4th: Superb tradesman; Olympic level competitor; renowned sage/expert in field; SEALs and the best of spec ops troops.
5th: World class, top 5 in the modern field on the planet in whatever they do. World champion athlete, leader and genius in their field; the Best soldier/fighting man in America.
6th: Batman or Doc Samson. You're just freaking awesome. The best human heroes of legend are 6th...Robin Hood, Miyamoto MUsashi, etc.
7+: COmic book level of ability. THere is no real world equivalent to 7th level and higher PC's. You have to wing it. 7th-10th is about Captain America level as a Super SOldier. You can't draw a real world comparison to 7th+ characters, it just can't be done.
==Aelryinth
... Farming is an expert profession -- at least if you don't want to die a horrible starving death.
Every time someone has tried to go and make it just the 'commoner anyone can do it' thing countries have starved.
Yes and no. In relatively modern times it is an expert profession. In ye olden times I would say it was not. Feudalistic societies actively tried to keep the serfs as ignorant as possible. They didn't want them to know anything that wasn't absolutely necessary to just barely perform the directives they were given. That is part of the reason it took so many serf farmers to support a very small aristocracy.
The meger 3 skill points per level would be about correct for people kept purposely ignorant.
And people starved and crops failed constantly -- feudalistic society has nothing to do with it, people are ascribing more idiocy than was actually involved with the time period.
Abraham, I agree about 0 level (after all, commoner 1 gives you a fat lot of nothing anyway. Is there really any difference?).
However... Keep in mind that 1st level PC class has more hp, stat bonuses and a huge boost in combat ability over a 3rd level npc. I'd say they're approximately equal in strength. Purely a matter of taste here, but first level has a special place in this gamers heart (and AP back catalogue)
Click here if you want a realistic world for your superhuman characters to live in.
Note that Irranshalee's link is not what it sounds like (a Marvel superhero universe or something). It's probably the best analysis of how levels translate to our world that I've read. Ever.
Aelryinth is pretty much quoting from the Alexandrian article Irranshalee linked to above.
The analogy I like to use is:
Graduated high school, or something similar by cultural (warrior training, hunting, basic training, taking over the farm); 1st level.
2nd: Experienced...college grad, seen combat veteran, experienced tradesman.
3rd: Skilled tradesman; elite combat veteran; Master's degree education in whatever field/equivalent.
4th: Superb tradesman; Olympic level competitor; renowned sage/expert in field; SEALs and the best of spec ops troops.
5th: World class, top 5 in the modern field on the planet in whatever they do. World champion athlete, leader and genius in their field; the Best soldier/fighting man in America.
6th: Batman or Doc Samson. You're just freaking awesome. The best human heroes of legend are 6th...Robin Hood, Miyamoto Musashi, etc.
7+: Comic book level of ability. THere is no real world equivalent to 7th level and higher PC's. You have to wing it. 7th-10th is about Captain America level as a Super SOldier. You can't draw a real world comparison to 7th+ characters, it just can't be done.
All in all, I highly recommend the article for anyone who likes to overthink what levels mean.
Not that I worry about it too much. It'd drive me crazy, given the game I'm running these days :)
I will point out, however, that just because I'm running a campaign with crazy levels, the townsfolk are not all suddenly 20th-level commoners - they're still just average Joes as in any other campaign.
My campaign notes usually have a character listed at level 1 commoner if they're adolescent or younger, level 3 for a typical NPC who's been around for a while doing his thing, and level 5 for the tough, experienced guys who have seen their fair share of hardship.