I still say you need to switch the Charisma and Strength scores(it isn't all about damage and atk). I know this is a fantasy game but I can't see a woman being sexy when she looks like a pretty version of Magnus Von Magnison the World Champion Strong man. A natural 18 strength is a ridiculous attribute score for a small, sexy woman who seduces other women (unless she clubs them and takes them over her shoulder). In my mind she is ripping out of her sexy dress in a most un-sexy way. You have built a hulking tank not a woman.
Not necessarily. I was in the military for a bit, and you'd be surprised how buff infantry and tankers (who lift a LOT of heavy stuff) aren't. Sure, they are strong (they have to be), but they don't have massive, rippling cords of muscle. I'd put a world champion strongman in a totally different category as a warrior.
Plus, as was said above me, this is fantasy.
Considering this is D&D/Pathfinder where even a scrawny being can have immense Str (I couldn't name any examples, but I am sure there are some good ones), I wouldn't care to reflect the looks of my characters using their actual stats. That's like saying low Cha makes that person ugly (which, as discussed in another thread, is simply not true)And I should ask the OP if they actually have the build done by now.
Very true, as I said it is a fantasy game so have at it. The group I roll with tends to try and put a note of realism on their characters, to a degree anyway. The OP's character in my group would have a huge Cha score and an slightly above average Str score with and average Wis, the other stats would be lesser scores of some sort.
I was just thinking about the old racial and gender attribute caps from 2nd ed. I liked those.
Like I said before the OP put a lot of thought into this character and should have fun with it.
SGH
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Would I get any use out of replacing Shield of Swings with Combat Expertise? What about Unsanctioned Detection? Which of those is better?
I'm thinking of taking Critical Focus when I hit 9th level and Bleeding Critical at 11th level. I already have a 19/20 x4 critical that gets 3d10 acid damage on top of all the other damage. Add in +4 to confirm and 2d6 bleed, and things are getting really fun.
Shield of Swings isn't a bad choice. I just don't like it because you are giving up half your damage for what I think is a minor bonus to AC. I think that is a feat you'll get more use out of at lower levels where damage output and attack rolls are theoretically lower.
The benefit from Combat Expertise would be lower but the drawback (a small penalty to hit) would also be less noticeable at higher levels. So you could probably get away with using it all the time. In that regard it would arguably be "better" than Shield of Swings.
Unsanctioned Detection is great, but how much use you'll get out of it depends on what sort of game your DM is running. The +10 to Perception 1/day is going to come in handy at most tables but you may not get as much millage from the bonus to Sense Motive. Especially since it is a class skill for you so you can get your ranks up pretty high on your own.
..and yes, when you critical hit something you'll pretty much kill it dead. Poor poor critter.
Also, I totally agree that you should add a ranged weapon. You don't have to invest any feats into it, but every adventurer should carry both a ranged and melee weapon (even if they kind of suck with them, which you won't because you have good BAB). Otherwise you'll find yourself in situations (*cough* smart, flying creatures *cough*) where you just sit around with your melee weapon twiddling your thumbs.
As for your stats, 18 strength & 16 charisma definitely work with your concept. Charisma is one of those funny stats that people keep mixing up with physical attractiveness when it really isn't. A supermodel could have a low charisma. An ugly SOB could have a high charisma. Either way, 16 is pretty f-ing good. Plus, having a high strength doesn't necessarily mean you are super muscular. You could just be really wirey. That would fit with your lower Constitution score. Or not muscular at all ... it's a fantasy game.
Anyway, I guess the 1,000,000,000,000 other threads of alignment/paladin arguments just aren't enough so we'll have to suffer through it in this one too. :-)
As for your stats, 18 strength & 16 charisma definitely work with your concept. Charisma is one of those funny stats that people keep mixing up with physical attractiveness when it really isn't. A supermodel could have a low charisma. An ugly SOB could have a high charisma.
For the record, I agree Cha is force of personality over physical looks. The character described by the OP is a force of personality more then a physical force. This is why the build should have Cha over Str.
Hell, in real life I know some ugly SOB's that can charm the socks off you. Cha is how you hold yourself, confidence, ability to express, all that good stuff.
SGH
The thing that I find funny about this whole thing from reading it is, that if this was a male playing the same character as a male a lot of people would probably think, wow this guys is a douchebag, but since it is assumed that this is a female running the character it is cute and exciting.In some cases, yeah. It's a case of moderation versus extreme behavior. A guy playing a hyper-sexualized female-on-female PC runs the risk of his friends at the table wanting to say, "Dude, get a room, and take your character sheet with you!"
I mean, really. It's kind of gross, isn't it?
Being socially aware enough and capable enough of handling these things in an adult manner is part of overall maturity at the gaming table. It's an overall mark of being able to work socially with other people.
This "check-maybe-I-should-ask-first" trait is not something everyone has. To put it in a more base manner...
The hyper-sexualized, female-on-female PC is likely something someone would store in a private hard drive. When played at the gaming table, that fantasy is now brought out in front of everyone. That right there? That is what makes others uncomfortable.
In other words, playing a hyper concept involves being an adult about the concept. It involves making sure your friends are comfortable with what you're doing. A player at the table should only push as far as others are comfortable with. They might also try playing it with a sense of humor.
If you're uncertain what does make a female friend at the table uncomfortable?
Approach her and ask her.
Respecting, communicating with one another is paramount. If she wants to play the reverse, she might ask you and the best thing you can do is offer honest, good feedback. You might find you're more open to certain concepts. You might find this to be less true. Communication, especially where comfort levels are concerned, is never a bad thing.
As for it being more a male trope than a female one, yeah, I could see that. It is not...
You get a really big +1 for this post. If the laws of plussing would allow me to give it a +3 I would .
Frankly I don't care if a player brings these things to my table so long as it is not divisive to the group or story, does not cause unreasonable offense, and is played maturely.
I have a player at my table who in real life is attracted to their own gender - and I would never dream of telling them they can't have a character with non-traditional values at the table. Frankly they have awesome characters and back stories and their characters and role playing only enriches the gaming experience at the table. Their character's preferences are not a central focus or major definer of who they are - it is just part of who they are.
Paizo has regularly included same sex relationships in their campaigns. In fact Jade Regent is a great example (as is Rise of the Rune-lords) of particular note here in the fact that they refuse to define the preferences of the NPCs - and outright say - they are considered bi-sexual. Paizo has made a game that largely targets the adult audience, and open communication and mature handeling of these topics is essential. No one is forced to use what Paizo includes - but for the DMs with groups that can handle it - it does make for good gaming :) This is of course not just limited to sexuality and gender issues - but it expands into how evil is the BBEG and cannibalism, etc. Paizo is far more adult in all of these areas.
Which is why yet again - I applaud this character build for it's break from the traditional Paladin concept. I wouldn't hold a different view if it was a male paladin or a male playing a female so long as it was approached in the same manner the OP has approached it, with maturity. So i fail to see the double standard.
Kelsey, you cannot have Improved Critical just yet.
It requires a BAB of +8 at the time you take the feat; you get a feat at 7th level and at 9th. At 7th level you don't have a BAB of +8 yet...
In my mind she is ripping out of her sexy dress in a most un-sexy way. You have built a hulking tank not a woman.
Unfortunately, even the female muscle competitions would agree with you. Muscled, but "womanly" is the way to win, and trophies have the female posed in high, spiked heels. A female body cannot reach its full potential because of adherence to certain perceptions. It's been a source of scandal in these competitions for years.
Earlier events were worse. From Wikipedia: "Although these early events were regarded as bodybuilding contests, the women wore high-heeled shoes, and did not clench their fists while posing. Additionally, they were not allowed to use the three so-called "men's poses" — the double biceps, crab, and lat spread."
Yet, even in 2000: "Also, new judging guidelines for athlete presentation were introduced. A letter to the competitors from Jim Manion (chairman of the Professional Judges Committee) stated that women would be judged on healthy appearance, face, makeup, and skin tone. The criteria given in Manion's letter included the statement 'symmetry, presentation, separations, and muscularity BUT NOT TO THE EXTREME!'"
A friend of mine who won a women's bodybuilding award received her trophy, only to find it posed in spiked, high heels.
That said, the player is going for female perception, not male ones.
Re: The STR issue - I'm not sure high strength equals "buff."
I would think that high STR and high CON would probably indicate something closer to that - but high STR alone could be explained by pointing to a body type like bruce lee - who was quite strong, and very fit - but not arnold buff or WSM big. If CHA is not tied to looks then why must we look to SRT to determine muscle size? Surely the extra damage bonus could be explained by technique, and the carry capacity, well in the army I have seen skinny young men ruck a lot of weight and not be buff. Just saying.
EDIT: Also - "sexy" is far more a matter of personality and behavior then it is physical beauty. Since physical beauty and personality are not entirely defined (only partially explained by and even then you have to stretch) the stat box - I think it is unfair to determine how sexy this character may or may not be.
I dunno if it's more hilarious or telling (and depressing) how many people here are absolutely terrified of a woman who enjoys sex.
Well, I think part of the issue is that for a lot of people, our experience with super-hot, very sexually active lesbian pcs is that they range from the hilarious to the creepy. So we're somewhat suspicious to begin with, even without the Paladin-against-type angle.
That said, the original poster addressed most of the concerns that I'd have, namely that many religions and many societies consider homosexuality unlawful. (Important both because of the lawful aspect of the paladin code, but also the good aspect; the morality of homosexuality aside, it's not Good to do things with people when they will suffer serious consequences and you will not.)
There's still the issue that as a PC and a paladin, she will be vastly more powerful literally and socially than most of her lovers. This makes issues of consent somewhat problematic, however you define "seduction." This isn't "omg she's so hot I can't help myself" but that no matter how hot your boss/military superior/professor/priest is, there's still an inequality there which can make consent... questionable.
Tell us more about how seduction is evil and girls will always hurt someone if you try to love them (without alluding to the cheerleader that turned you down).
"And I'm such a nice guy! I guess the girls all only love the CE."
By the rules you could have a paladin of Arshea. http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Arshea If you take sacred servent you could even have the lust subdomain.
True, Andrew. Also important to remember: she's playing in an Eberron-inspired home-brew, not Golarion. We don't know the deities or facets of the home brew other than: "it's inspired by Eberron" and "it's got black dragons that conform more to normative Bestiary than Eberron".
And Lex, re: high STR =/= large muscles, I'm not sure I'd agree with your interpretation, especially given someone like Bruce Lee, who had rather impressive strength and endurance. I'd generally make a comparison between strength and dexterity to determine how lithe someone is. That said, I generally have the derivative stats at my table (when I GM) that tells me how I'm perceived (though, by RAW, Charisma does that - house rules for the win!).
True, Andrew. Also important to remember: she's playing in an Eberron-inspired home-brew, not Golarion. We don't know the deities or facets of the home brew other than: "it's inspired by Eberron" and "it's got black dragons that conform more to normative Bestiary than Eberron".
And Lex, re: high STR =/= large muscles, I'm not sure I'd agree with your interpretation, especially given someone like Bruce Lee, who had rather impressive strength and endurance. I'd generally make a comparison between strength and dexterity to determine how lithe someone is. That said, I generally have the derivative stats at my table (when I GM) that tells me how I'm perceived (though, by RAW, Charisma does that - house rules for the win!).
I could buy the STR reconciled by DEX. RE: House-rules - this is why I support the appearance stat ;)
I could buy the STR reconciled by DEX. RE: House-rules - this is why I support the appearance stat ;)
Huzzah! Actually, I have three "derivative scores" that note the general perception of a given character by others, built out of base scores, and chosen by the player (or GM for an NPC).
Each of the derivative ability scores controls the general impression you make when others look at you. Each of these scores is a combination of two modifiers of your choice. Each base ability score can only be used once to create derivative ability scores (so, for example, you cannot use strength for both appearance and power).Appearance (or Beauty) - this is how pleasing you look, over all. Choose (STR or DEX) and (INT or CHA), add the two modifiers, and add 10. This is your Appearance.
Power (or Might) - this is how powerful you seem. Choose (STR or CON) and (WIS or CHA), add the two modifiers, and add 10. This is your Power.
Luck (or Survivability) - this is how lucky you seem. Choose (DEX or CON) and (INT or WIS), and add the two modifiers, and add 10. This is your Luck.
These scores affect no actual gameplay, but simply represent the over-all impression you give to others.
It's quick and dirty, but it functions well enough. I usually grant everyone an extra 1d4 points to put into their derivative scores, because, hey, they don't actually control gameplay. It's objective in that it's a concrete number to be judged similarly to other scores, but it's able to be chosen by the player, giving them control.
ANYWAY VAGUELY MORE ON-TOPIC: I never actually said, but I, like Lex, give a +1 to Ruggs' "look: talk to your group, don't make them uncomfortable" post. Also, I think high heels are terrible forever. (Back problems later in life do not seem sexy to me).
This thread has given me feat ideas I hadn't considered for my upcoming paladin build, so I love it.
This thread has given me feat ideas I hadn't considered for my upcoming paladin build, so I love it.
Which ones, and why? (Says the person who's got a Paladin -> Shadowdancer build coming up.)
Radiant Charge
Greater Mercy/Ultimate Mercy
Reward of Grace
and maybe Voice of Sibyl
Radiant Charge, Reward of Grace, and Voice of Sibyl fit with the role that I'll be in the party, which is a damage dealer/self healer/diplomacy guy. Greater Mercy/Ultimate Mercy grants a greater benefit to the Mercy class ability, which ups my survivability.
I'll also be taking Extra Lay on Hands at some point as well. I'm going to be taking the Oathbound Paladin and working in the Oath of Vengeance. This combination effectively makes the Extra Lay on Hands feat more like an Extra Smite feat. I either can't find or have overlooked an actual feat for an extra use of Smite Evil, so I'd gladly take that. Plus, if need be, I can combine it with Greater Mercy and get that much more healing in a day.
It's been almost 20 years since I've played a paladin...and that was back in the AD&D days. I'm looking forward to the changes.
Maybe those feats aren't as useful as I'm thinking they are, but they sound pretty cool so far, and since I'm going to the two handed weapon route, I will have some feats to spare.
My Paladin's feats are locked in through level 5.
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
(Power Attack is so she can do decent damage, the other three are pre-requisites for the Shadowdancer prestige class.)
Not sure what feat(s) I'm taking at 7th, 9th, or 11th (this is for Pathfinder Society).
The build can be found here: