Hello everyone, and sorry for my poor english skills.
I'm currently running Kingmaker's first part (Stolen Land) lightly modified (for heavier opposition), with a 5-6 epic fantasy point buy characters group, including a human druid. After first session, the druid player told me he feels really useless, especially during fighting scenes.
The group also include an Half-Orc Barbarian, an Halfling Rogue, a Gnome Alchemist, a Tiefling Wizard and a part-time Human Paladin.
The few times I could play as a PC, I never choosed a druid, just because I don't feel really comfy with this class. I saw a lot of threat about how much efficient a druid can be, but I guess both of us would really need some advices about how to rise a druid and how to be the most efficient inside this group. Btw I didn't find any valid links to get Treantmonk's guide to Druid.
Here are this PC stats (generated with Hero Lab):
HARALD CR 1/2
Male Human (Ulfen) Druid (Wolf Shaman) 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +7
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 12, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +5
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OFFENSE
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Quarterstaff +0 (1d6+1/1d6/20/x2) and
Sickle +1 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +1 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged Sling +2 (1d4+1/20/x2)
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STATISTICS
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Str 13, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Combat Casting, Druid Weapon Proficiencies, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Animalistic Affliction (Ulfen), Devotee of the Green: Knowledge (Nature)
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb -2, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +6, Heal +7, Knowledge (Geography) +6, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Perception +7, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +9, Swim -1
Languages Common, Druidic, Skald, Sylvan
SQ Animal Companion Link (Ex), Heart of the Wilderness +0, Nature Sense (Ex), Share Spells with Companion (Ex), Spontaneous Casting, Wild Empathy +3 (Ex)
Combat Gear Bullets, Sling (20), Masterwork Quarterstaff, Sickle, Sling, Wooden Armor; Other Gear Backpack (9 @ 13.5 lbs), Bedroll, Flint and steel, Torch (3), Wandermeal (per serving) (3), Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Heart of the Wilderness +0 +5 on CON checks to stabilize, +1/2 level to negative HP level for death, +1/2 level Survival.
Nature Sense (Ex) A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Spells cast on you can also affect your Companion, if it's within 5 feet.
Spontaneous Casting The Druid can convert stored spells into Summon Nature's Ally spells.
Wild Empathy +3 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
AMAGUK CR 2
Male Wolf
NN Medium Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +5
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DEFENSE
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AC 14, touch 12, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 14 (+4)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
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OFFENSE
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Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite (Wolf) +3 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
Unarmed Strike +3 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Trip
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STATISTICS
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Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 14 (18 vs. Trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Tricks Attack [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Guarding [Trick], Stay [Trick], Track [Trick]
Skills Perception +5, Stealth +6 Modifiers +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent
Languages
SQ Come [Trick], Guarding [Trick], Stay [Trick], Track [Trick]
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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+4 to Survival when tracking by Scent +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent.
Come [Trick] The animal will come to you on command.
Guarding [Trick] The animal has been trained for guard duty.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Stay [Trick] The animal will stay where it is.
Track [Trick] The animal will track a scent.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
Thx for all of your advices
Ok, Duid is the or one of the strongest classes in pathfinder with a 25 Point buy... just not at Level 1.
But he can be decent there too.
First your player needs to be clear about what type of Duid he wants to play, the spell slinger, the summoner, the melee monster or the all rounder.
Based on the stats distribution I would say the all rounder has been chosen but the Feats say Melee - big problem here! Needless to say the all rounder is not the best choice in a "modified (for heavier opposition)" type of game aka combat is king!
Also an optimized Barbarian with 20 Strength will pack a hefty punch at level 1 and may force the Druid into the role of healer.
Second reallocate your stats accordingly. If you want a melee duid then 16 Str is the minimum and 18 is optimal and a starting 14 Wis in enough. For a spell slinger 18 Wis is mandatory under a 25 point buy and 20 Wis is optimal because most of your offensive spells are save spells. All rounder and Summoner need a 16 Wis at least and the Summoner can make use of Cha as well and doesn't need that much Str.
Third the wolf animal companion is ok, but the bear and especially the great cat is simply superior by far.
FinallyFeats. Two Weapon Fighting is a trap and Combat Casting is so too for the Druid at this level. Either get Spell Focus or get utility feats like Imp Ini. Weapon Focus Quaterstaff is ok for a melee druid but should later be retrained to Weapon Focus Claws/Bite. A Summoner needs to get the Augment Summoning Feat asap.
Since the majority of Kingmaker is outdoors, it is one of the best paths to play a druid in. I'm currently in the first book as a fighter and I'm wishing I played a druid now. Entangle and other spells that effect the terrain would be very handy. Don't have the time to get into a full explanation before work, but your friend won't feel useless for long.
I guess my friend don't really want to be a melee monster, as the barbarian is usually already dealing a really large amount of damages, although I bet he finds upcoming shapeshifting features really fun and wants to use them in an efficient way (surely not only in combat I guess).
In another adventure path, my friend played a wizard and had a lot of fun with. So I will have to ask him, but I bet he would love to rise a healer/spell slinger/summoner or something like that. Last session he told me he thinks first level summonings are really useless. (lasts only 1 round, tiny creatures => no reach => have to enter enemy square to attack => means opportunity)
What is exactly the "all rounder" druid?
About quaterstaff and 2 weap. fight., he wanted to use this weapon and a sling, so I just gave him a "bonus" sickle.
And I suggested him combat casting in case he would be sticked in close combat, or targeted by preparing enemies vs spellcasting opponents. Was it a bad idea?
Uhhh, did he approach you about wanting to be a werewolf? Or did you force him to be one? Not having control over your Character generally means not having fun.
But yes, druids at 1st level are a bit weak.
And show him Entangle and Produce flame.
Uhhh, did he approach you about wanting to be a werewolf? Or did you force him to be one? Not having control over your Character generally means not having fun.
I guess it's off the subject, but of course I never force my players to play something they don't want to, although I often include new twists and turn in my story, and this affliction would be one of them. I will first try to stealthly know what he would think about playing a werewolf character (otherwise I'll drop the idea) and if after first session he would be unhappy with this affliction, I would include something in my story to allow him to heal.
People disparaging the wolf as an animal companion forget about it's one major advantage.... it's Trip attack. Which gets even better when it goes dire. And if he's playing a wolf shaman, that's his only choice for companion anyway.
I guess trip can be useful, but still, druid companions are NPC allies and not fully controlled by PC (handle animal & trick isn't at all a full control). To be "realistic" I usually consider his companion acting as both would form a wolf pack, so using as far as possible trip attack and flanking with the druid. But unless using the animal tricks and the handle animal skill (in taking a simple action doing it...), I am far from the picture where a druid would spellcasting away from enemy lines when his companion would flank rogue's opponents... So I still see for now the companion as a light advantage.
People disparaging the wolf as an animal companion forget about it's one major advantage.... it's Trip attack. Which gets even better when it goes dire. And if he's playing a wolf shaman, that's his only choice for companion anyway.I guess trip can be useful, but still, druid companions are NPC allies and not fully controlled by PC (handle animal & trick isn't at all a full control). To be "realistic" I usually consider his companion acting as both would form a wolf pack, so using as far as possible trip attack and flanking with the druid. But unless using the animal tricks and the handle animal skill (in taking a simple action doing it...), I am far from the picture where a druid would spellcasting away from enemy lines when his companion would flank rogue's opponents... So I still see for now the companion as a light advantage.
Are you saying the animal would not be tripping when possible? I agree with you that the wolf may not be focused on setting up the perfect flank possition with the rogue (but a smart rogue would be very likely to set up his position based on where the wolf has gone), but it should almost certainly have the basic skill of attack, of which he would use his own best abilities when attacking, including tripping when possible. Also a druid using handle animal is a free action.
(A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)
Yes, 1st level summons are useless, so don't use them at 1st level. Seriously, a druid in Kingmaker should be about the most useful character in the group. Entangle will almost singlehandedly win most low level fights, as long as the rest of the party has the commonsense to buy ranged weapons and use the advantage it gives them. Even if it doesn't stop the opposition it will slow them down. Our druid never went anywhere without at least 1 Entangle memorized, and it brought our party victory more times than I can readily count. In fact, at 1 point I belive 3/4 of the party could cast it (plant domain cleric, druid and ranger).
I'm kinda liking the fact that you can cast Plant Growth at 5th level and control weather at 9th, regularly doing both protects the land and negates the effects of famine and bad weather. Both allow you to make your points about respecting the land to your people better.
Well the issue is that werewolves are generally CE and the advice is not to allow your players to play one as they are vicious monsters generally.
Again we are off the subject, but you said everything with this word. What's interests me behind this, is putting this character in a position where he would be struggled between his green faith and the "evilish" beast within himself and all it can bring to him, access of anger, lust of raw meet, sudden scent, etc.... I don't plan to make him directly completely overflooded by the affliction, I better would see him fight against himself in a lost by advance fight. I guess I would make him find romance before contacting this affliction, to be able to see how he will have to manage to protect his love from himself. I don't really care if the rules doesn't allow to follow the decreasing control of the character, I'll invent some if I need them... Lycanthropy would be a way to add intensity and plots to the campaign storyline and nothing more for me.
But be sure anyway I'll do my best for my players to have fun, and I'll drop the idea otherwise.
Are you saying the animal would not be tripping when possible? I agree with you that the wolf may not be focused on setting up the perfect flank possition with the rogue (but a smart rogue would be very likely to set up his position based on where the wolf has gone), but it should almost certainly have the basic skill of attack, of which he would use his own best abilities when attacking, including tripping when possible. Also a druid using handle animal is a free action.
(A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)
Thx for the free action rule.
No I just would say that without aknowledged (aka successful handle animal skill check) express orders from the druid, the wolf would stick to the druid and help him to fight. And even if a wolf pack usually tries to flank and trip (so would his companion do the same), the wolf would surely not get all understandings of a tactical issue, and would surely take the best position only by luck.
Welcome to the boards. We like our tangents.
Related to that tangent, at 2nd level when using his Transformation, he will have full control over the animal, since A) it's completely loyal to him and B) he can speak at-will to canines.
On topic: Treantmonk's guide to the druid. Wild Mystic is the casty type, Spirit of the Beast is the "all up in your face ripping it to shreds" type. It is a bit outdated, since this was before the APG.
Focusing on wild shape is the way to go for being a melee druid, which it looks like he currently is.
If he wants to cast, and have his wolf trip (really, it's just easier on everyone to just give him full control), then I recommend Improved Initiative.
I'd recommend allowing him to change his feats. Poor feat choices due to not choosing a good playstyle from level 1 really hampers your fun at later levels.
But as is, a level 1 druid is nothing special. At level 5, they start to get really good though, since they get Natural Spell. At level 2, the summon spells (which he should never prepare, btw. He can spontaneously convert other spells!) start to be useful.
Show him the Spell Focus (Conjuration) -> X-light summons feat tree though. Druids get some alright conjurations, so the DC boost doesn't hurt. And those feats really help augment the summons. Especially Starlight summons. Once he has that feat, he can drop a summoned creature next to an enemy, then drop a Fog Cloud around them. The summon will be mostly immune to it due to Blind-Fight, but the enemy will be at a disadvantage.
Well first off, why on earth did the druid take 2 weapon fighting? If he is going to fight, it will be in animal form after level 4, 2 weapon fighting is more or less a wasted feat (not to mention at low levels the -2 really hurts a partial combat class like the druid).
He also spread his stats too thin, he needs to decide whether to focus on combat or spell casting, if combat strength needs to be higher, if casting, then two weapon fighting needs to be a different feat (probably so does combat casting), maybe spell focus conjuration and augment summoning for summon natures ally goodness, and wisdom needs to be at least an 18 after the ratial +2 (so a 16 from the point buy). If combat, then he should have a much higher strength (and lower wisdom), and needs are more useful feat then two weapon fighting (one with an eye towards eventually wild shaping, so maybe power attack instead).
Also what about his skills? There is a lot of wilderness exploration in kingmaker, isnt the druid shining out in the woods with survival, and knowledge nature? Or have you shifted the games focus to combat and away from some of the exploration in the AP? I mean I dont know for sure as I've only played in it and have not read the adventure, but I know my group would have loved to have a druid around in the first part of kingmaker.
Are you saying the animal would not be tripping when possible? I agree with you that the wolf may not be focused on setting up the perfect flank possition with the rogue (but a smart rogue would be very likely to set up his position based on where the wolf has gone), but it should almost certainly have the basic skill of attack, of which he would use his own best abilities when attacking, including tripping when possible. Also a druid using handle animal is a free action.
(A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)Thx for the free action rule.
No I just would say that without aknowledged (aka successful handle animal skill check) express orders from the druid, the wolf would stick to the druid and help him to fight. And even if a wolf pack usually tries to flank and trip (so would his companion do the same), the wolf would surely not get all understandings of a tactical issue, and would surely take the best position only by luck.
As the wolf learns more about his companions in the party, I think he might instinctually start to see them as his pack.
Could be an interesting development.
In another adventure path, my friend played a wizard and had a lot of fun with. So I will have to ask him, but I bet he would love to rise a healer/spell slinger/summoner or something like that. Last session he told me he thinks first level summonings are really useless. (lasts only 1 round, tiny creatures => no reach => have to enter enemy square to attack => means opportunity)
First level is tough because they last so little, but that goes away pretty quickly. But there are plenty of non-tiny creatures on the summon natures ally list:
Dire RatDog
Eagle
Giant Centipede
Fire beetle
mite
All of these are small or larger and on the summon natures ally 1 llist
Also what about his skills? There is a lot of wilderness exploration in kingmaker, isnt the druid shining out in the woods with survival, and knowledge nature? Or have you shifted the games focus to combat and away from some of the exploration in the AP? I mean I dont know for sure as I've only played in it and have not read the adventure, but I know my group would have loved to have a druid around in the first part of kingmaker.
I just used the sandbox to add customized encounters. But of course, knowledge nature and survival is useful, except that at level 1, the difference with other character isn't really obvious:
- The Barbarian and the Alchemist have both as class skills- The Rogue is a Scout Archetype and has the Poverty-Stricken trait
- The Paladin has the Militia Veteran (Survival) trait
- The Wizard isn't skilled at Survival but master better knowledge.
So no-one is completely useless in nature. I bet with levelling, the druid would surely slightly become better, but it's not really the case in this group at low levels.
As the wolf learns more about his companions in the party, I think he might instinctually start to see them as his pack.
Mmmmhh depends of how close to the druid the other characters are. In case of real conflicts such as alignments issues, I guess the "wolf pack" would still be limited.
As the wolf learns more about his companions in the party, I think he might instinctually start to see them as his pack.Mmmmhh depends of how close to the druid the other characters are. In case of real conflicts such as alignments issues, I guess the "wolf pack" would still be limited.
I think it'd emerge just from fighting with them as allies often. Instincts are a powerful thing.