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Chews on hellknight helmet "BAD! TASTE BAD! WHY U NO HAVE PIE? ME LIKE PIE"
*Hellknightin'*Alright. Orc! Take up that pick and work. If you do, you will eat. If not, pain.
Hrmph. The Chelaxian burden.
*recovers helmet as best he can*
Fine! Behave and get pie! Fight me, and no pie! And I'll throw the pie out! Submit, beast!
*sigh* Civilization cannot survive mercy.
Chews on hellknight helmet "BAD! TASTE BAD! WHY U NO HAVE PIE? ME LIKE PIE"
*Hellknightin'*Alright. Orc! Take up that pick and work. If you do, you will eat. If not, pain.
Hrmph. The Chelaxian burden.
*recovers helmet as best he can*
Fine! Behave and get pie! Fight me, and no pie! And I'll throw the pie out! Submit, beast!
*sigh* Civilization cannot survive mercy.
"WHY U THROW PIE? U NO LIKE PIE? EVERYONE LIKE PIE!WHY U HATE PIE? WHAT WRONG WITH U? R U SICK? THAT WHY U NO LIKE PIE?"
News flash for some of the people here. The orcs in the 3.5e Monster Manual had the alignment "Often Chaotic Evil". Not "usually", but "often", which means there was room for orcs that weren't all chaotic evil, more so than with the drow for example, who were "Usually Neutral Evil". Also, I don't understand the whole "homerule it and move on" thing in this case, because you are more or less telling Mikaze "your view is wrong, so just houserule it and shut up". No, it should not be like that. As much as your tastes are catered to, I feel that my and Mikaze's cases should also be addressed, not simply mocked or belittled.
And like I said before, if so many orcs are evil, why not already put that large stamp on the bestiary where it reads "ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL"?
Because that's basically how everyone else seems to view orcs here.
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I'm not mocking or belittling anything. I'm just saying that the game doesn't have to be 100% for 100% of the people. I don't even USE alignments in my game, and orcs in my homebrew aren't evil, just primitive.
What I'm saying is, who cares what three words in the Bestiary say?
Home rule it, and move on.
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3. OH HEY, NON-PRETTY NOBLE SAVAGE RACE TOO.So "genocide" bothers you, but taking a racist trope from Colonial Europe is a-ok.
Gotcha.
Point being, anyone can find offense in anything.
Home rule it, move on.
Great, now I've been accused of being both "overly politically correct" and "racist".
If using that trope's name as shorthand offended you, I genuinely am sorry. But the idea of a mostly "primitive" race with proud warrior traditions and is plenty capable of being good, neutral, or evil? I find that much more palatable than genocide and child killing.
And again, homeruling works if you're the GM.
And it still doesn't magically make Pathfinder-quality material for non-evil orcs appear.
If you are not mocking those who don't want to see all orcs as "Always Chaotic Evil", then do tell me this. Why are the people responding here as if those who want a more "realistic" view on orc alignment somehow doing things wrong? Hell, they try to make it sound like they're not voicing an opinion, but presenting us with a fact.
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The race you are wanting is not the race as presented in any version of D&d or in pathfinder.Actually orcs as "not always evil" have been in various D&D settings. It's just that even in Eberron, we never got to see them fully explored like we have for elves and dwarves several times over.
Yet when you get into the setting most of these "non evil" Orcs live pretty much like all other orcs, raiding and looting and being big evil and disorganized barbarians, then in the shadowmarches most of the "Good" places are mostly half orc with some orc thrown in while most of the "evil" places are full orcs worshiping the dragon below.
Its just the same with better PR.
Examples of orcs outside the stereotypical range are still examples, and that's still more than we've got for Golarion, a setting which used to be tauted as being made so that everyone could have any kind of game they wanted.
In other words, tempest/teapot.
And I do find it telling that someone that considers genocide bad has no problem with a very racist trope, the "noble savage".
So you think Lizardfolk are a race born of a racist trope?
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Here's the problem, same problem with, say epic rules. A very vocal minority wants something. An equally vocal majority doesn't. Paizo is in the book selling business. So, hmm, who do they cater to?
Seriously, non-evil orcs are as easy as non-LG paladins, non-evil drow, whatever, just let them exist.
And, my whole thing about the genocide? We're playing a game that, at it's core, is "kill things, take their stuff". Even the most high brow games boil down to that. I personally don't get offended by much of anything, but I will point out the irony. And, frankly, the same people who perpetuated the myth of the "noble savage" spent a lot of time committing genocide on those same "savages". So, basically, the two are peanut butter and jelly, different things on the same sandwich.
Just sayin'
Examples of orcs outside the stereotypical range are still examples, and that's still more than we've got for Golarion, a setting which used to be tauted as being made so that everyone could have any kind of game they wanted.
And nothing stops you from putting them in your game.If you want to put rcarebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.
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So you think Lizardfolk are a race born of a racist trope?In other words, tempest/teapot.
And I do find it telling that someone that considers genocide bad has no problem with a very racist trope, the "noble savage".
If you look hard enough, really anything based on the classic "pulp" era is pretty racist. Conan, Tarzan, Barsoom, etc.
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Here's the problem, same problem with, say epic rules. A very vocal minority wants something. An equally vocal majority doesn't. Paizo is in the book selling business. So, hmm, who do they cater to?
Seriously, non-evil orcs are as easy as non-LG paladins, non-evil drow, whatever, just let them exist.
But why is it suddenly wrong to want quality material for those things? Why are we not allowed to want them?
I'm also not so certain about those classifications of which is the majority and which is the minority being correct or that far apart.
And, my whole thing about the genocide? We're playing a game that, at it's core, is "kill things, take their stuff". Even the most high brow games boil down to that.
I always played the game to play Big Damn Hero and do adventuring.
I personally don't get offended by much of anything, but I will point out the irony. And, frankly, the same people who perpetuated the myth of the "noble savage" spent a lot of time committing genocide on those same "savages". So, basically, the two are peanut butter and jelly, different things on the same sandwich.
Just sayin'
And I don't think colonial racists have a monopoly on the idea of "primitive" peoples being people worthy of respect.
If you look hard enough, really anything based on the classic "pulp" era is pretty racist. Conan, Tarzan, Barsoom, etc.So you think Lizardfolk are a race born of a racist trope?In other words, tempest/teapot.
And I do find it telling that someone that considers genocide bad has no problem with a very racist trope, the "noble savage".
R.E Howard, Fan-freaking tastic writer...raciest as all hell.
And nothing stops you from putting them in your game.If you want to put carebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.
So you already stoop to insults by comparing the non-evil orcs to carebears?
This is sad and pathetic. We might as well let this thread die since apparently those who don't respect our opinion (while forcing us to accept theirs) will eventually just go down to trolling when they can't "get their point across". Seriously, me and some other people are disturbed by the implications of "Always Evil" races that aren't Fiends. I don't see how that makes us "Acceptable Targets" or even deserving of being ignored when people like you make the game less fun for us.
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And nothing stops you from putting them in your game.If you want to put rcarebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.
Again with the misrepresentation.
Why do you guys keep doing that.
I am not asking for "carebear" orcs.
I am not asking for all settings to be the same.
I'm asking for genuine, quality support for non-evil orcs for PFRPG.
But apparently that's badwrong.
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So you already stoop to insults by comparing the non-evil orcs to carebears?
And nothing stops you from putting them in your game.If you want to put carebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.
Who is he insulting? An imaginary creature? Or are you, personally, a non-evil orc?
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So you already stoop to insults by comparing the non-evil orcs to carebears?
You are the ones wanting to change orcs into something kinder and gentler and not orc like at all.
So yep, in an OFF topic joke thread I made a carebear orc joke..shocker.
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And nothing stops you from putting them in your game.If you want to put rcarebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.Again with the misrepresentation.
Why do you guys keep doing that.
I am not asking for "carebear" orcs.
I am not asking for all settings to be the same.
I'm asking for genuine, quality support for non-evil orcs for PFRPG.
But apparently that's badwrong.
And Jacobs already stated, I believe, that they're really not interested at this time. Again, why make something for a VERY small audience?
Most of us don't need a rulebook to tell us we can have non-evil anything.
Kinder and gentler are the wrong words. What I want is an orc who can spare opponents out of some odd code of honor or not just blow things up or rape stuff because he had nothing better to do. But like Mikaze said, we're apparently doing something so badwrong we would need to be executed by a commissar for heresy. Hell, Warhammer 40K has Chaotic Neutral / Chaotic Evil Orcs, and they aren't by any means kinder or gentler than the ones in D&D or Pathfinder.
Again with the misrepresentation.Why do you guys keep doing that.
I am not asking for "carebear" orcs.
I am not asking for all settings to be the same.
I'm asking for genuine, quality support for non-evil orcs for PFRPG.
But apparently that's badwrong.
Orcs are monsters as are goblins,drow and oddles of other critters. why should they be shown in any other light?
There is not a single thing in the orc writ up or state block, other then the romanticized idea you have in your head that seems to make them a good option to make "less evil" and more player friendly.
You have half orcs for that.
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Hey, Mikaze and Icyshadow. I have an idea. Lets collaborate on a non-orc PDF and offer it up for people to download.
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Kinder and gentler are the wrong words. What I want is an orc who can spare opponents out of some odd code of honor or not just blow things up or rape stuff because he had nothing better to do. But like Mikaze said, we're apparently doing something so badwrong we would need to be executed by a commissar for heresy. Hell, Warhammer 40K has Chaotic Neutral / Chaotic Evil Orcs, and they aren't by any means kinder or gentler than the ones in D&D or Pathfinder.
Why can't you have that in Pathfinder? Is the Bestiary threatening you with violence if your orcs aren't mindless killing machines?
Hell, Warhammer 40K has Chaotic Neutral / Chaotic Evil Orcs, and they aren't by any means kinder or gentler than the ones in D&D or Pathfinder.
In 40k everything is evil.
- "You want a drow? Sorry, can't have that. Here, take half a drow and be happy"
- "But I want an ACTUAL DROW!!"
- "That's your problem, not mine..."
Orcs and half-orcs are two different races, both in flavor and appearance. And what we want are orcs, not half-orcs. That's like me giving you a Decepticon instead of the Autobot you wanted, and telling you to deal with it and be happy of what you got. They're both Transformers so why cry about it?
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Derek, is this racist?
Hahahahahaha okay just clicking that link after reading this and seeing Mel Gibson was the director . . . hiLarious. I don't know anything about it other than what was on that one page, but judging by the description your comment was probably meant to elicit some sort of humor-acknowledging reaction. There was probably some big stink about this movie's racism back in the day.
- "You want a drow? Sorry, can't have that. Here, take half a drow and be happy"
- "But I want an ACTUAL DROW!!"
- "That's your problem, not mine..."
Orcs and half-orcs are two different races, both in flavor and appearance. And what we want are orcs, not half-orcs. That's like me giving you a Decepticon instead of the Autobot you wanted, and telling you to deal with it and be happy of what you got. They're both Transformers so why cry about it?
I can't help it if you want to play a Gnome in darksun eaither. Talk to your GM, but orcs are not a player race, that is the whole point of the half orc.
You guys are out numbered. They make games with warcraft orcs that you might like. But most folks like orcs being , well orcs. So you will have to house rule it.
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Most of us don't need a rulebook to tell us we can have non-evil anything.Good thing everyone here is included in that most.
I just don't understand why, nowadays, everyone has to have an "offical" source that tells them they can do what they want. You want noble orcs with an honor code? Have them, no one is stopping you.
But going on and on about wanting a product the publisher already stated probably isn't happening isn't productive.
And, like I said before, orcs aren't evil in my homebrew, and players can be whatever kind of orc they want as a player race. So this isn't me saying you're having badwrongfun, this is me saying you don't need Paizo's permission or support to do what you want.
In 40k everything is evil.OR IS IT?
Yes. Every freaking thing.
And nothing smurfs you from putting them in your game.If you want to put carebear orcs in your game , go for it. But you seem to want to force all settings to have they odd orc you want. Go tell middle earth they must have warcraft orcs as well. I'll wait.So you already stoop to insults by comparing the non-evil orcs to carebears?
This is sad and pathetic. We might as well let this thread die since apparently those who don't respect our opinion (while forcing us to accept theirs) will eventually just go down to trolling when they can't "get their point across". Seriously, me and some other people are disturbed by the implications of "Always Evil" races that aren't Fiends. I don't see how that makes us "Acceptable Targets" or even deserving of being ignored when people like you make the game less fun for us.
umadsmurf?
By the way, are they really 'making the game less fun for you'?
Are they sneaking into your house and hiding the gaming snacks?
Are they playing MS Paint Adventures Squiddles music during your epic fight scenes?
Are they pasting "Always" over "Usually" in your Bestiaries?
"Someone say orcs?" Sniffs the air "I smell Xp!" stabs the orc
Hey, Mikaze and Icyshadow. I have an idea. Lets collaborate on a non-orc PDF and offer it up for people to download.
Sounds fine with me. I'll see when I get the time for it.
@Seekerofshadowlight:
Orcs can be orcs, even without being evil, just like there probably were lots of Chaotic Neutral orcs in 3.5e by canon. Also, that comment about orcs not being orcs without the evil label sounded very racist, like saying all Irish people are drunkards or else they wouldn't be Irish but something different. Then again, I am just getting the feeling that you don't like the Warcraft series for some reason ;D
"Someone say orcs?" Sniffs the air "I smell Xp!" stabs the orc
*Kicks the orc's boot*
Aha! You have to split the XP with me now!|
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I'm not imagining someone wanting Paizo to make a book saying orcs aren't just xp.Well then you should say that, instead of making up blanket generalizations about people needing official permissions to do things.
It just seems to be a recurring theme. If someone wants to play the game a certain way, they seem to think Paizo should put out a book that supports what they want. Paizo would have to publish probably 1000 books a year that will sell 100 copies each to accomplish that.
A company tried that once. It was called TSR. It's part of the reason they went out of business.
If orcs are acting like traditional orc. They are evil.
"Someone say orcs?" Sniffs the air "I smell Xp!" stabs the orc*Kicks the orc's boot*
Aha! You have to split the XP with me now!
Looks at the kobold "Look xp in fun size!" swings at the kobold
I see your point Derek, but the problem is that unless you have something official, the "traditionalists" like Seeker here are going to attack you with accusations of "doing it wrong" and such. You cannot play D&D wrong. You can play Baldur's Gate wrong, you can play World of Warcraft wrong, but THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG WAY TO PLAY PATHFINDER OR D&D...unless you are a munchkin or something.
Hey, Mikaze and Icyshadow. I have an idea. Lets collaborate on a non-orc PDF and offer it up for people to download.Sounds fine with me. I'll see when I get the time for it.
@Seekerofshadowlight:
Orcs can be orcs, even without being evil, just like there probably were lots of Chaotic Neutral orcs in 3.5e by canon. Also, that comment about orcs not being orcs without the evil label sounded very racist, like saying all Irish people are drunkards or else they wouldn't be Irish. Then again, I am just getting the feeling that you don't like the Warcraft series for some reason ;D
Yes, him saying that all orcs are evil is JUST like saying all Irishmen are drunkards. Yup, nothing wrong with that logic.
As many grammar nazis will point out, a species =/= a race. Especially when it's a fictional species, and the preference for evil orcs is a stylistic one. He believes that the orc species (okay, 'race' is more practical, but I can't be a hypocrite in this post) is defined by its malice, just like dwarves are defined by mining. You change it, you change the race.