i'm sure the bat can gain it's share of experience points.
and there is no rule that prohibits animals from taking class levels.
So a Dire Bat Can Take Barbarian levels.
Particularly since the original was an awakened dire bat, this does make a great deal of sense. Dear god, that's insane. I want to laugh. Or cry. I'm not actually sure which.
Particularly since the original was an awakened dire bat, this does make a great deal of sense. Dear god, that's insane. I want to laugh. Or cry. I'm not actually sure which.i'm sure the bat can gain it's share of experience points.
and there is no rule that prohibits animals from taking class levels.
So a Dire Bat Can Take Barbarian levels.
Not only that, but regarding him being able to charge something only the mount could see...why give mounts enhanced perception of any kind, if you *can't* make use of it.
Besides, even his animal companion would have an intelligence over 3 by then, not to mention his own skills and feats. It would be pretty easy to say 'when you see casty, squawk 3 times and charge'.
As for terms on the Contingency;
Tell me where in the COntingency spell it has the ability to detect a lance. I'm not aware of that spell myself.
Tell me where in the COntingency spell is built in 'detect mount'. Another spell I'm not aware of. Not to mention either contingency is going to make it nigh impossible to function around people. How does this new Detect Lance spell tell the difference between lances and spears, for instance? Does a fly riding around on your shoulder constitute using a mount? Inquiring minds want to know!
Ergo, the Contingency can only react to something that happens to you. It cannot detect others, it cannot detect what might happen, it cannot detect what is happening. It can react after the fact to something that has happened. It does not ANTICIPATE.
It can react to you saying something. But free actions are not immediate actions, so even if you can talk on someone else's turn, your 'Oh S*&%' to teleport away is NOT going to be in reaction to being charged in time. It comes a teeny bit too late. Free actions are not swift, nor quickened.
It can react to you getting hit and wounded. If a spell hits you. If you take hp dmg. If you get a condition. If you get teleported. Something HAS TO HAPPEN for it to go off.
You can't use COntingency to throw a spell on someone else, either.
Not too concerned with a cleric cohort with Shield Other. That is just a HP increase to AM, and he can already blow a LOT of damage on a casty...this way he just gets two for one.
==Aelryinth
Contingency and Spell Sunder both suffer from the same problem. The rules for implementing them are so vague as to be useless. We don't know how you target for Spell Sunder, or how you set up the criteria for contingency.
Spell Sunder requires that you be able to see a spell. Permanent Arcane Sight does that easily. Spellcraft would be for identifying the spells.
Contingency casts a spell on you in reaction to something happening to you, or you speaking a command word. That doesn't seem that bad, but man, do people go crazy wild trying to make it do other things.
==Aelryinth
Honestly I think we've all agreed that if casters go to a silly level they can survive, The question now is can they KILL AM.
The most effective strats i've noticed is Ring of invisibility and Mind blank, and use of contingency. For the record, I think it's fairly safe to say "When I become the target of a charge by two or more creatures" is it not? Or even drop the two or more clause. Further I think that's a fairly safe contingency too have on all the time.
To those who keep insisting on running away and using summons to deal with am, you seem to keep forgetting that even with the dubious attempts to scry and teleport them into range (which I've yet to see one that I believe would work) AM can still quite simply sunder most of these attempts away quite happily. Or hell he could just leave, since that seems to be the primary Caster strategy.
At the risk of bringing too much reality into the situation, Casty has the REAL power in the game: Cold Hard Cash.
He'd be better off using the alleged 3 million+ gold he has to put a ginormous bounty on AM BARBARIAN and bribing the king and local lords to go to war on his behalf. "Fear will keep the local AM BARBARIANS in check...fear of this battle station!"
Then just chill in his own private demi-plane until word reaches him that the deed is done.
At the risk of bringing too much reality into the situation, Casty has the REAL power in the game: Cold Hard Cash.
He'd be better off using the alleged 3 million+ gold he has to put a ginormous bounty on AM BARBARIAN and bribing the king and local lords to go to war on his behalf. "Fear will keep the local AM BARBARIANS in check...fear of this battle station!"
Then just chill in his own private demi-plane until word reaches him that the deed is done.
That's BBEG thinking.
Think on that.
It also has the potential too just provide AM with more loot which is just going to make things MORE difficult.
At the risk of bringing too much reality into the situation, Casty has the REAL power in the game: Cold Hard Cash.
He'd be better off using the alleged 3 million+ gold he has to put a ginormous bounty on AM BARBARIAN and bribing the king and local lords to go to war on his behalf. "Fear will keep the local AM BARBARIANS in check...fear of this battle station!"
Then just chill in his own private demi-plane until word reaches him that the deed is done.
Why do you believe that casty has more money than AM?
Also on the whole "my 750 caster followers shoot magic missiles at him", you guys should remember that the barbarian has Leadership too. That means he has followers too. Now you have full scale war. And since the followers are low level I'll bet on the horde of fighting types over the casting types, thank you very much.
Also does anyone if there is an item that can provide the effects of a shield spell? That would dash the magic missiles idea to the ground.
Edit for clarity.
Have plan. Simple, really.
1: AM BARBARIAN is mighty scourge. Well known. Can get name from like, first level bard in tavern down street. Or contact other plane. Whatever.
2: Put on pointy hat, pick up adamantine +5 staff of shininess. Cast overland flight. Fly around. No invisible; not need fancy defenses.
3: RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Die. Is ok, still part of plan. Suppose could use simulacrum, but less verisimilitude.
4: AM loot body of fallen casty. AM vanish.
What happen? Trap the soul. Staff forged around trigger object & gem. 1 inch metal block detect.
5: Rise from dead via clone back at lab (or not, if using simulacrum).
6: Launch all-out assault on batty bat to get staff back.
Or have cohort with well-timed instant summons spell?
Pick a method; method not important; just have to act within cast time of discern location cast by batty bat.
Pretty sure batty bat not have better method to figure out what happen to AM. Plan may still need some fine-tuning.
Any metal blocking the magical aura is effectively blocking the magic. Ergo, doesn't work.
On Contingency: If you could inform me of the source of the Detect Charge effect, and further explain how it would be able to differentiate between hostile intent and your kids aiming for a hug and two mosquitoes zeroing in for a bit of blood?
Right then, so that does not work. Contingency does not sense and does not anticipate. It responds AFTER something happens to YOU. Not AS something is happening to you, and not BEFORE something happens to you.
Charging is doing nothing to you...its doing something to the charger. When the charger arrives, hacks into you for tons of damage, yes, Contingency can go off. You might be dead, but you can teleport back home.
It might work from the standpoint of being disguised as loot, except Trap the Soul has to be a gem, and the trigger object must be close to the gem. I believe that spell effects are different then enchanted objects, and so he'd sunder the active spell as a matter of course.
==Aelryinth
Any metal blocking the magical aura is effectively blocking the magic. Ergo, doesn't work.
No such rule.
Oh. then touching the chest the item is inside triggers the magic. Good to know. Less then an inch thick.
eesh. Can't block seeing the magic with material and not block the magic, too, dude. If the magic is active, it's visible.
==Aelryinth
Magic Aura: Hide.
The magical aura is no longer visible.
Eh see this route depends. If AM has his leadership mount, the synthesist would most likely have the knowledge arcana needed to know too smash the gem, assuming it is as easy to get his name in the first place as stated.
Magic Aura: Hide.
The magical aura is no longer visible.
Now, that's a proper solution.
Now, just have to determine if AM has the ability to save against no-save spells.==Aelryinth
Since AM's body is now in the Gem can't he now Spell Sunder the Gem from the inside thus getting out?
Dunno. Can you take actions while Soul Trapped?
==Aelryinth
Dunno. Can you take actions while Soul Trapped?
==Aelryinth
I see nothing saying you can't.
which doesn't say that you can, either. Your soul is trapped, after all.
If you can still take actions and are not held in some kind of stasis, then yeah, he'd just spell sunder his way out.
==Aelryinth
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a non awakened dire bat can take class levels as well. there is no rule saying it can't. it may sound ridiculous for a dire bat to take barbarian levels. but don't look at it as a traditional barbarian.
think of it as a war trained bat with heightened resilience and increased ferocity who has been trained to shrug off pain more effectively.
...Jack Rakan rule of manliness does seem to imply you can spell sunder nonexistance, so a gem would be nothing.
But that also seems silly, as you would also be able to try casting dispel magic from inside the gem.
There is a problem with the 'container too big to hold the item' theory, though. If the magic doesn't get contained by the item that's encasing it wholly enough to completely block the aura, wouldn't it also make sense the item's magic is powerful enough to work through anything similarly encasing it? By that logic, why use an encasement at all? Just say 'the atmosphere' is your item. Then touching the atmosphere itself that the gem is touching would therefore make the trap the soul work. I don't think it works that way, thus it seems equally unlikely that hiding it in a thing too thick to see through would work either.
Another possible problem is that there's something like an arcane caster right there, and while he doesn't have hands he definitely has spellcraft and a heck of a move speed.
EDIT: On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure you COULDN'T cast a dispel magic from inside a Trap the Soul. Huh. GM's choice I guess.
Really? You're going to sunder your way out of a gem without a body?
You have a body.
Trap the soul forces a creature's life force (and its material body) into a gem.
Really? You're going to sunder your way out of a gem without a body?
Spell says your body is pulled into the Gem also.
Edit: Ninja'd
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The spell description also says that if the gem is broken, your body reforms. So it's been...what, dissolved?
It is in the spell world of the geeeeeeemmmmmm.... ooooOOoooooo spookyyyy....
I imagine there's a lot of fog.
If the magic doesn't get contained by the item that's encasing it wholly enough to completely block the aura, wouldn't it also make sense the item's magic is powerful enough to work through anything similarly encasing it?
So all I need in order to be immune to magic is a 1 inch thick metal shell? New item: Lead-lined cap! Prevents mind control!
Sarcasm aside, if you're going to go with that ruling, then instead:
polymorph any object on item & trigger item to make them look harmless (waterskin & stopper, perhaps?), and then use limited wish or wish to conceal the spell auras.
Sadly, a mere Magic Aura spell won't cut it - it specifies it works on "magic items", and we're dealing with spell effects. But it does show that concealing an aura from stuff that's not identify is a reasonable effect for a first level spell, so I'd expect limited wish's "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" option to do the trick.
Best way around batty bat identifying the spell from its effects and breaking things: bury the gem a few feet underground beneath where you'll be flying. That way all batty can break immediately is the now-irrelevant trigger item - and you can easily get the gem back before he finds it.
Overall, though, I'd say it looks like there are a few too many inexactly-defined spells involved here for a strict RAW argument to be decisive on who wins. Ask your local GM, I guess, and adjust tactics for houserules as needed.
If the magic doesn't get contained by the item that's encasing it wholly enough to completely block the aura, wouldn't it also make sense the item's magic is powerful enough to work through anything similarly encasing it?So all I need in order to be immune to magic is a 1 inch thick metal shell? New item: Lead-lined cap! Prevents mind control!
Sarcasm aside, if you're going to go with that ruling, then instead:
polymorph any object on item & trigger item to make them look harmless (waterskin & stopper, perhaps?), and then use limited wish or wish to conceal the spell auras.Sadly, a mere Magic Aura spell won't cut it - it specifies it works on "magic items", and we're dealing with spell effects. But it does show that concealing an aura from stuff that's not identify is a reasonable effect for a first level spell, so I'd expect limited wish's "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" option to do the trick.
Best way around batty bat identifying the spell from its effects and breaking things: bury the gem a few feet underground beneath where you'll be flying. That way all batty can break immediately is the now-irrelevant trigger item - and you can easily get the gem back before he finds it.
Overall, though, I'd say it looks like there are a few too many inexactly-defined spells involved here for a strict RAW argument to be decisive on who wins. Ask your local GM, I guess, and adjust tactics for houserules as needed.
Argh! An interesting plan occurs and the RAW is too vague to figure out what happens!
Man that's tearing-my-hair-out worthy.
Any metal blocking the magical aura is effectively blocking the magic. Ergo, doesn't work.
On Contingency: If you could inform me of the source of the Detect Charge effect, and further explain how it would be able to differentiate between hostile intent and your kids aiming for a hug and two mosquitoes zeroing in for a bit of blood?
Right then, so that does not work. Contingency does not sense and does not anticipate. It responds AFTER something happens to YOU. Not AS something is happening to you, and not BEFORE something happens to you.
Charging is doing nothing to you...its doing something to the charger. When the charger arrives, hacks into you for tons of damage, yes, Contingency can go off. You might be dead, but you can teleport back home.
It might work from the standpoint of being disguised as loot, except Trap the Soul has to be a gem, and the trigger object must be close to the gem. I believe that spell effects are different then enchanted objects, and so he'd sunder the active spell as a matter of course.
==Aelryinth
You keep speaking in definites. No where in contingency does it state that you need a sort of detection spell to activate it's trigger. "The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being "cast" instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur." It happens IMMEDIATELY, so regardless of the trigger, it happens before the rest of the effects.
If you really wanted to get it without a "detection" trigger, you can simply state that the spell goes off the instant someone tries to spell sunder a spell effect on you, or any sort of metal touches your cloak, etc etc. Otherwise there is NO way you could ever trigger the contingency. It's completely hypothetical. A wizard with these kind of preparations and the INT to cast these spells would know a way to avoid your kids giving you a hug triggering it.
Actually while at first I figured Aelryinth was quite simply wrong, and slightly over-zealous after looking about via google i've seen that the general consensus is that contingency requires you to defiantly be affected by something before it'll trigger.
Examples i've seen, is responding to certain sounds (such as from a alarm spell), health being dropped to a certain level, conditions being applied to your char, and specific phrases.
Of course since the spell doesn't bother to explain exactly what can be used as a trigger, it's just another one of those what if situations.
But i've gotta admit, if ANYTHING could be the trigger, I could see some of my players sitting down and writing 3 page legal documents to set up the perfect situation for them.
And no, I have no raw to back this up.
Now I see AM having contingencies for contingencies.
Edit: Also looking at the spell it seems that its gonna be harder than some might think to contingency AM into losing.
So now we're adding henchment into the barbarian build. So now the wizard build to counter should employ a henchmen. Leadership is the single most powerful feat in the game. So the barbarian build must beat the wizard build with a henchman as well.I would recommend a barbarian henchman.
I'm not going to get a barbarian henchmen.
The ragelancepounce won't beat the Diviner. The entire idea of starting outside of the sight range is unimporant. It only allows a surprise round, but the Diviner can't be surprised. So it won't work. The Diviner will still go first and will remove himself from the battle prior to the lance charge.
I would prefer another caster henchmen so I can double up on spells.
I'm seeing a ton of problems with the strategy:
1. Diviner Build: If you attack someone that cannot see you, it is a surprise round. There is no way to get around it. The rules are very clear on this. A diviner cannot be surprised. This is a mystical ability where it is assumed they get a feeling or see a vision prior to getting attacked.
Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition, you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/2 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.
Diviner will act first.
2. Ready Actions: Ready actions must have a triggering event. You cannot ready a charge. That is clearly spelled out in the rules.
Can you ready an action to charge? (Core Rulebook, pages 198 and 203)
No. The rules for a charge state that you can take a charge action as a standard action if you are "restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn". Although the ready action text states that you can take a standard action, it does not meet the requirements of the text in the charge action.
Charge to disrupt spellcasting is not an option.
3. Arcane Sight will not detect an invisible and mind blanked caster.
Arcane Sight is a divination spell.
Mind Blank blocks all forms of divination used to find information about an individual including magical auras of spells active on caster, alignment, whether caster is polymorphed or not, flying, or anything the caster has active on his person as well as blocking scrying. So arcane sight will not locate a mind blanked caster.
So this build is operating on assumptions that do stand up to analysis of the rules.
4. Most smart casters are going to teleport away if they are being attacked. Not wait to see what surprise attacked them. So this also requires that a dumb caster be present who wants to stay around to see what is going to attack him.
From there it is a matter of preparing the proper strategy for the kill with a lvl 18 henchmen.
And the assumption also relies on the barbarian have a clear line to the caster from over 500 feet away. Which would require an open field. How exactly is this assumption being met if the caster is say in his tower?
If we're attempting to challenge the caster-martial disparity, shouldn't we be doing it assuming realistic situations where the barbarian and wizard might fight?
Spell Sunder requires that you be able to see a spell. Permanent Arcane Sight does that easily. Spellcraft would be for identifying the spells.
Contingency casts a spell on you in reaction to something happening to you, or you speaking a command word. That doesn't seem that bad, but man, do people go crazy wild trying to make it do other things.
==Aelryinth
That is incorrect in both cases. You can be blinded and in solid fog and still sunder a spell. And Contingency doesn't say anything about the 'action' that causes it being one that effects you.
If we're attempting to challenge the caster-martial disparity, shouldn't we be doing it assuming realistic situations where the barbarian and wizard might fight?
Okay so the wizard and the barbarian walk into the bar. The wizard says disparaging things about AM's mother...
Moving right along, I note you have some insightful analysis, and would like to expound on some points.
1) Yes, they can totally teleport away.
2) You also can't ready a charge. This is why charges are generally done on AM's turn. Which totally lets the squishy casty run like a little girl on turn 0.5 if it's a Diviner 20.
3) Nnnnnnnot exactly. Arcane sight states that it protects you from divination spells that gather information about you. Invisibility and the like state that any gear being carried is also invisible. Mind Blank does not offer similar protection to the gear. Thus, you see a giant lump of magical gear roughly the size of a small moon. 'Charge, Spell Sunder the Invisibility.'
If you miss, you've wasted your spell sunder. You won't miss.
4) Or a casty who isn't expecting it and isn't a diviner. Though, again. You can totally run like a little girl. The martials will laugh at you but at least you're alive. It also doesn't require an open field. AM could quite easily be in a forest (so long as we don't have any trees big enough to take up their own 5-foot-squares) and charge, or flying 430 feet in the air and charge straight down. He could even charge through a tornado. Dragon Style is awesome. We also run into the problem of teleporting away from a thing you can't actually see and then 'planning for the kill.' On the thing you ran from without knowing what it was. And if they're in a tower?
AM has Profession (Engineer) and the Smasher rage power. If he wants casty dead, he can and will collapse the entire tower on the guy's head.
And in the bar fight? AM for the win after he takes a bottle, smashes it on a table, and cuts the wizard several new smiles on his stomach.
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1. Why do you assume that the caster runs away? Teleport is a movement spell used to put the caster in a more advantageous position. Sometimes that's 'over here out of your range' and sometimes it's 'off where you can't find me and I can prep for later.' In both cases, we end up with a dead AM.
2. See 1, above.
3. Anyone who argues that mind blank doesn't protect the caster's gear will also have to accept that there's no penalty for being dead, and we know where that leads. Stop it. As an aside, you've still not shown how AM even sees the caster from over 120 feet away. As another aside, you also haven't shown how AM will figure out which of the myriad auras he CAN'T SEE (see above) is the invisibility.
4. Per your reasoning above, the caster is in his tower, and thus it's not an unattended object. So there. As far as the caster not being able to see AM...are you hiding? On BATTY BAT? How? I only need a perception check to notice fine details (see the skill description), and you're not exactly a fine detail.
5. Also also, I am your father. Go to your room. And clean it up; what are you, a barbarian?
3. Anyone who argues that mind blank doesn't protect the caster's gear will also have to accept that there's no penalty for being dead.
Why? The two are completely unrelated points, and this statement appears to be the crux of your argument.
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Oh, and here's how 'later' will go:
I teleport in near you.
Surprise round starts. I cast waves of exhaustion.
Round 1 starts. I win initiative and cast waves of exhaustion, followed by a quickened dimension door (quickened via rod, of course). I've still got a move action, that I use to switch to a greater rod of quicken.
AM does...not much. Can't rage, can't charge. Maybe double move toward me? I mean, running away won't help, because he can't move faster than me.
Round 2 starts. I win easily (details left as an exercise for the reader).
What can you do to stop me?
Point out that your entire argument is predicated on the fact that you saw AM during the surprise round that you teleported out in, which due to his immense range is quite clearly not the case?
I'm fairly certain the intent of Mind Blank is to protect your gear as well. It's an 8th level spell. Also it specifically points out See Invisible as one of the examples that it blocks. Any character capable of casting an 8th level spell would find Mind Blank useless for blocking See Invisible because of all their invisible gear on.
Then again, if the exercise's point is to find rules that need to be rewritten, we can add Mind Blank to the list along with Perception (how could you not see something in the complete open air a mere 860 ft. away just because you didn't pimp your perception score?), charging, raging more than once in a round, Scrying having a target ;), spell sunder having an infinite range if you aren't sundering a spell on a creature, and probably more I'm forgetting.
edit: I would add sleep and death rules to the list but Paizo staff has said they don't need to write rules for those because their customers are smart enough to not need them. So AM never needing sleep and castys continuing to act while dead will never be "fixed" by the rules. You simply have to be smart enough to not do it (my words, not Paizo's).
Deathspot, how are you taking two actions in the surprise round? surprise round starts, you either teleport or cast waves of exhaustion. The barbarian also gets to act in this round so it can't simply be assumed that he's just standing there and taking it.
I'm fairly certain the intent of Mind Blank is to protect your gear as well. It's an 8th level spell. Also it specifically points out See Invisible as one of the examples that it blocks. Any character capable of casting an 8th level spell would find Mind Blank useless for blocking See Invisible because of all their invisible gear on.
Then again, if the exercise's point is to find rules that need to be rewritten, we can add Mind Blank to the list along with Perception (how could you not see something in the complete open air a mere 860 ft. away just because you didn't pimp your perception score?), charging, raging more than once in a round, Scrying having a target ;), spell sunder having an infinite range if you aren't sundering a spell on a creature, and probably more I'm forgetting.
edit: I would add sleep and death rules to the list but Paizo staff has said they don't need to write rules for those because their customers are smart enough to not need them. So AM never needing sleep and castys continuing to act while dead will never be "fixed" by the rules. You simply have to be smart enough to not do it (my words, not Paizo's).
AM is smart enough to realize that being stupid has its advantages. ;P
Honestly, the exercise's original point was 'I'm going to talk in allcaps about how awesome Barbarians are and prove that Castys cannot easily deal with them.'
30+ pages of this stuff later, I've probably proven my @#$# point. The EASIEST plans that MIGHT work are based on
-having prior knowledge of the barbarian's existence
-somehow getting the drop on him
-playing a specific type of Casty
-and throwing out a good four-five spells in prebuffs on top of whatever is required to actually kill the guy.
This would be miles away from an effortless win even in the event it did somehow work, and there's STILL ways to screw over even those plans.
The memetic mutation which occurred afterwards was an unintended but awesome side-effect.
1. Why do you assume that the caster runs away? Teleport is a movement spell used to put the caster in a more advantageous position. Sometimes that's 'over here out of your range' and sometimes it's 'off where you can't find me and I can prep for later.' In both cases, we end up with a dead AM.
2. See 1, above.
The 'tactical retreat'. A.K.A. running like a little girl.
3. Anyone who argues that mind blank doesn't protect the caster's gear will also have to accept that there's no penalty for being dead, and we know where that leads. Stop it. As an aside, you've still not shown how AM even sees the caster from over 120 feet away. As another aside, you also haven't shown how AM will figure out which of the myriad auras he CAN'T SEE (see above) is the invisibility.
The penalty for being dead is the same as having negative hp: uncosciousness inability to act in any way, hit points dropping constantly. This was discussed earlier upthread. Make an effort, will you?
4. Per your reasoning above, the caster is in his tower, and thus it's not an unattended object. So there. As far as the caster not being able to see AM...are you hiding? On BATTY BAT? How? I only need a perception check to notice fine details (see the skill description), and you're not exactly a fine detail.
He sees you because he has maxed perception. Unless you also have maxed perception he will see you before he enters your field of vision.
5. Also also, I am your father. Go to your room. And clean it up; what are you, a barbarian?
And now you're just being silly. Means you don't have any good arguments and know it.
@Trinam - Amen! You'd think this was an exercise in showing how casters suck. Poor rogues are getting lonely...just kidding!