| 31 people marked this as a favorite. |
During another conversation there was some disagreement over the idea of "custom" magic items. As far as I can tell, the magic item creation rules are part of the standard game. They have very clear-cut rules that are in effect to define and limit what they can do and how they can do it. They exist to quickly, easily, and fairly, allow the design of new magic items without having to make the already enormous rulebook twelve times larger by trying to create every instance of magic item possible.
So as far as I'm concerned, if it's legal by the magic item creation rules, then it's a core magic item that doesn't exist yet. So what does this mean? It means there's a lot of really cool and most importantly interesting magic items that aren't printed but are part of the core rules by proxy. So, I wanted to discuss some of these possibilities, and create a little archive of Core Rules Legal magic items that have been created using these methods, and explain how the item was formulated so as to give some easy to use examples to those new to the 3E/PF RPG.
=================================================
Cloak of Disappearance
Aura faint illusion; CL 3rd
Slot shoulders; Price 4,800 gp; Weight 1 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This cloak appears to be woven from spidersilk, and has an almost translucent appearance when viewed against the light. By pretending that your foes cannot see you (a free action) the cloak actually causes you to turn invisible for up to 30 rounds per day. These rounds needn't be consecutive. Anything that breaks invisibility also ends the invisibility granted by this cloak.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, invisibility; Cost 2,400 gp
Ring of Elemental Warding
Aura faint abjuration; CL 1st
Slot ring; Price 3,000 gp plus 4,500 gp for each additional gem; Weight -
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This simple ring is attuned to a particular element and studded with a gem associated with that element: acid (jade), cold (sapphire), electricity (topaz), fire (Jacinthe), or sonic (quartz). The ring grants the wearer energy resistance 10 against the appropriate energy type. Some varieties of these rings protect against more than one energy type, with each additional protection adding an additional stone to the ring. Rings of Elemental Warding containing all five gems are often prized by travelers of the planes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Forge Ring, resist energy; Cost 1,500 gp plus 2,250 gp for each additional gem
Belt of Ogre's Size
Aura faint transmutation; CL 1st
Slot waist; Price 800 gp; Weight 1 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This study leather belt is studded with wolf bones and bear teeth. When worn, the wearer may unleash a mighty battle-cry (a free action) to double in size as if by the enlarge person spell. He can remain enlarged for up to 10 rounds per day. Rounds spent enlarged needn't be consecutive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person; Cost 400 gp
Shield of the Dragon's Breath
Aura faint evocation; CL 5th
Slot none; Price 2,970 gp; Weight 15 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This finely crafted +1 steel shield is engraved with a beautiful and detailed image of a mighty red dragon's head. When a special command phrase such as "by fire be purged" or "inferno's cry" the head of the dragon appears to spring to life and unleash a burst of flames. The shield may expel up to 5d4 points of fire damage in a 15 foot cone each day, with a Reflex save (DC 11) for half damage. This fire damage may be split as desired (such as a single burst of 5d4 damage or five small bursts of 1d4 damage each). Activating this ability is a standard action.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Magic Arms & Armor, burning hands; Cost 1,570 gp
This should get everyone started. Before you know it, you'll be on your way to making lots of interesting magic items that are 100% legal by the core rulebook!
Notice: Before anyone brings it up, no you cannot make a sword of continuous true strike. True strike cannot be made continuous because of its unique duration type. Instead, the best you can do is make it at-will, or make a quickened true strike sword which is far more expensive and more limited. The most advanced true strike weapon you could craft would actually cost about 90,000 gp on top of whatever the weapon normally costs, which would allow you to cast true-strike as a swift-action once per round.
=============================================
I will probably post more items in this thread as time permits. Feel free to use it as a resource for your own ends, or to make requests, offer thoughts, and/or help people design their own magic items. Community project and all that. ^-^
Looks really good Ashiel. The one problem though, is that the Shield of the Dragon's Breath will never see much use because of the shoddy DC and single daily use. That's the one place in which these guidelines really tend to break down, DC based spells. A Shocking Grasp, on the other hand, would work out pretty well.
Thanks a lot Kyrt. ^-^
Actually I dropped that very shield into a game a while back. It became the dwarf cleric's favorite item for quite a few levels. The party looted it in an old armory, and he found it useful when dealing with swarms, and sometimes as a quick way to lite an unattended object on fire with in the middle of battle.
But yes, I agree it's not very powerful. Shocking grasp is more useful in general. In another game, I included a short sword call the arclight, which up to three times per day could transform the blade into a line of electricity to deliver a powerful shocking grasp. Since it was my game, I took a few liberties and allowed players wielding it to apply feats such as Weapon Focus (Short Sword) and the Fighter's Weapon Training to apply to the attack and damage with the lightning blade.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to note, however, is that this typically entails the abuse of inordinately powerful spells, for little to no cost, which are included to increase the survival of low level casters.
Some additional rulings you might want to consider:
If the spell can't be made into a consumable item and/or you can't cast the spell on someone else, or an item already exists (but might not be as good), then it probably shouldn't exist. (Shield comes to mind.)
If the spell does not thematically fit, then it probably shouldn't exist. (Barkskin on hulking armored warrior comes to mind.)
A similar concern is sinking funds into permanency.
One problem I see is the ring of elemental warding. By the book, a ring of energy resistance (minor) grants the exact same resistance 10 . . . and it costs 12,000 gp, not your 3,000. Resist energy is a 2nd level spell, so that is 2,000 x spell level (2) x caster level (3), which equals 12,000 gp. Resist energy is only a lvl 1 spell for a ranger; am I wrong?
MA
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
One problem I see is the ring of elemental warding. By the book, a ring of energy resistance (minor) grants the exact same resistance 10 . . . and it costs 12,000 gp, not your 3,000. Resist energy is a 2nd level spell, so that is 2,000 x spell level (2) x caster level (3), which equals 12,000 gp. Resist energy is only a lvl 1 spell for a ranger; am I wrong?
MA
The ring of energy resistance (minor) in the book is incorrect. It is an example of incorrect copy/pasta from the 3.5 book. In Pathfinder, you use the lowest caster level and spell level available to determine the price of the item, regardless of who creates it.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Thus the correct price for an energy resistance (minor) ring is in fact 3,000 gp. There are other examples of mistakes found within the rulebooks. For example, Ogres are not proficient in the greatclubs they are listed as wielding, and should either be wielding a simple weapon or have their to-hit reduced by 4.
One thing to note, however, is that this typically entails the abuse of inordinately powerful spells, for little to no cost, which are included to increase the survival of low level casters.
Some additional rulings you might want to consider:
If the spell can't be made into a consumable item and/or you can't cast the spell on someone else, or an item already exists (but might not be as good), then it probably shouldn't exist. (Shield comes to mind.)
If the spell does not thematically fit, then it probably shouldn't exist. (Barkskin on hulking armored warrior comes to mind.)
A similar concern is sinking funds into permanency.
Permanency has its uses. Most notably as a quick, easy, and truthfully pretty cheap method of getting some noteworthy abilities tattooed to your character, but it's a far cry from actually having magic items keyed to those abilities.
I have, however, yet to see any spell item that really warrants restrictions. Even spells such as mage armor and shield aren't exactly bad for the amount invested in them. Shield is probably the only one that would in any way concern me, and that's because shield provides a +4 shield bonus with no loss of handedness that blocks magic missiles and incorporeal attacks, which is better than a +2 heavy shield priced at 4,170 gp. I actually blame the fact shields kind of suck more than I blame the magic item creation system.
I can't really think of any other spells off the top of my head that really stick out as being really sweet for their price. Really, shield is pretty much it. Everything else seems to be fair game in terms of cost vs reward.
I would just chalk it up to another example of some options being better than similar options provided. For example, double weapons are generally superior in terms of two weapon fighting as opposed to wielding a pair of weapons. That's just kind of how they work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They have very clear-cut rules that are in effect to define and limit what they can do and how they can do it. They exist to quickly, easily, and fairly, allow the design of new magic items without having to make the already enormous rulebook twelve times larger by trying to create every instance of magic item possible.
If you're treating them as clear-cut rules, then you run into the very clear-cut statements in those rules that:
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 15-29."
and
"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point."
So, the clear-cut rule-as-written is that you cannot use the published guidelines as a way to quickly, easily, and fairly design magic items; you must use independent judgment not codified in the rules. It is explicitly a violation of the Core Rules themselves on the topic of magic items to take the results of the formulas as written as a final judgment, and thus a logical impossibility to declare the result of following the formulas as "Core Rules Legal".
I just don't know Ashiel. For every caster in the game, other than the Ranger, resist energy is a 2nd level spell. So it should be priced as a 2nd-level spell. But, I hit the FAQ button, so I guess they will let us know how the designers intended it.
Master Arminas
Since this entire thread is a jab at me, I will admit that the rules don't explicitly say that these are optional rules. I guess that was just widely held wisdom.
For reference, for a few of these items:
Items in the Price League of Belt of Ogre Size:
Items in the price league of cloak of disappearance:
Various postings by Paizo peeps to keep in mind:
SKR's views on free action items.
The boots of speed are laughably underpriced.
And, if you are using the boots of speed as a precedent for other items, a Use-Activated ("When I Swing the Sword") True Strike sword, which casts the spell True Strike on you as a free action, is... 1 (cl) * 1 (spell level) * 2000, or...2,000 gp.
I'm glad it exists in the game :)
I also consider the boots of striding and springing to be underpriced. Perhaps it's one partly due to the fact that there are so few magic boots that aren't overpriced, but that functionality gets reproduced in part or in whole to anyone who isn't a monk (although low-levelled monks might still take them).
I just don't know Ashiel. For every caster in the game, other than the Ranger, resist energy is a 2nd level spell. So it should be priced as a 2nd-level spell. But, I hit the FAQ button, so I guess they will let us know how the designers intended it.
Master Arminas
I quoted the text. It uses the lowest available spell level and caster level. It's not exactly ambiguous. Having spells at different levels on lists is not uncommon. Animate Dead appears a full 2 caster levels and 1 spell level sooner for clerics than for wizards and sorcerers, so you use the cleric version to determine the price of an item using it, even if the wiz/sor is crafting it.
Since this entire thread is a jab at me, I will admit that the rules don't explicitly say that these are optional rules. I guess that was just widely held wisdom.
Our conversation inspired the thread, but it's not a jab at you. Sorry if that disappoints.
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table 15-29."
"Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point."
Indeed. As you can see, we determined how the pricing of certain items occurred through reverse engineering the boots of speed, as explained in your first quote. The second quote, I have always taken to mean items that have strange abilities. For example, the efficient quiver is an item that is very unique and is a far cry even from the spell required to make it (a 5th level spell, mind you). It's only 1,800 gp because it honestly isn't worth much.
And, if you are using the boots of speed as a precedent for other items, a Use-Activated ("When I Swing the Sword") True Strike sword, which casts the spell True Strike on you as a free action, is... 1 (cl) * 1 (spell level) * 2000, or...2,000 gp.
I think you're using the use activated or continuous pricing incorrectly. All examples of items I have found, such as the boots of speed use spells which have a set duration, and have the price modified based on that duration. True strike has a nonstandard duration, and thus doesn't qualify.
On a side note, it amuses me that people are so ready to jump against anything posted in this thread that they begin calling existing magic items horribly under priced because the magic item is cited as an example. Really guys? Got something constructive to add to the thread, like perhaps an idea for a magic item, or perhaps a writeup of a magic item to add to the collection?
I will admit that the Belt of Ogre Size is probably a hair underpriced. It's a full-round cast spell being activated as a free action. The simple solution? Double the cost. 1600 gold still seems fairly reasonable for 10 rounds per day enlarged, and its eating your belt slot. If you also want a physical stat boost in that belt you'd have to increase it by .5, to a total cost of 2400 gold (in addition to the cost of the physical enhancement item)
A potion of enlarge person requires a standard action and costs 50 gp. It would cost the equivalent of 16 potions for the same 10 rounds as a free action via the belt. You would need to use the belt 16 times before you got your money's worth out of it.
A potion of enlarge person requires a standard action and costs 50 gp. It would cost the equivalent of 16 potions for the same 10 rounds as a free action via the belt. You would need to use the belt 16 times before you got your money's worth out of it.
Or a move action with the Quick Drinker trait, yeah, I know, I've got a character who does that currently.
The ability to pop that ability up as a free action exactly when you need it is pretty sweet though. (Also keep in mind you virtually never need more than 5 rounds per fight, so that's two potion equivalents per combat day, sometimes 3, and you're not spending an action to get the power in play.)
Sweet it is indeed. Also, I dig the aspect of the bear item. Very nice flavor there, and a pretty cool effect.
Also, 5 round fights probably are pretty common in most games. I will happily accept that as a near universal truth. That being said, the combats in my games tend to be a bit...longer. Most of my NPCs are very willing to use consumable items like potions, and they usually fight like they mean to live, and will happily preform tactical retreats, change scenery, or flee the battle to harry the group a bit later. Had a kobold dungeon once where the party was forced to retreat 3 times after encountering 4 kobolds. The same four kobolds. :P
Though personally, I find magic items like the ones listed in this thread (including your bear amulet) to be far more interesting in actual play than a lot of stuff. X/day items, or duration/day items are really cool and flavorful, and are often affordable for games that aren't overly high in level. It makes it easier to support some fun stuff in addition to the staples (AKA the big six and its kin).
On a side note, my brother's 5th level ranger had the vanishing cloak listed here. His was actually also a masterwork tool (+2 stealth), and he used it to skirmish with enemies. He would fire his bow, become invisible, then move. Then repeat. He managed to wound quite a few hobgoblins before he got an alchemist fire tossed on him when he appeared again, followed by a volley of arrows. Poor guy dropped to -11 (with a Con of 12) before the party managed to get a healing potion in his mouth. :P
EDIT: These hobgoblins were more or less unbuffed mind you. Not like the orcs. Had a group of orc warriors with glaives, who carried some jug-jug juice made by their adept shamans. By jug-jug juice, I mean enlarge person potions. So the party was getting chased around by 12ft tall orcs wielding 2d8+6 glaives with a 20ft reach, supported by an adept casting bless on them and healing downed orcs and having its familiar carry potions to the orcs as they cycled around the battlefield.
God I love this game. ^-^
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
I LOVE creating magic items, even if I am not all that great at it. I do wish that the rules for creation and pricing were clearer, and I hope that should some revisions of the rules ever be done that is one thing that is tackled.
I like what I see here, and I think you are right with pointing out that the rules are core. Unfortunatly, creating magic items is an extra process, a little misunderstood, and can be a pain if done wrong. I think because of that most GMs just don't want to bother with it and thus consider it to be a "fringe rule" when it isn't. On top of that, most of the GMs I play with only want to use items in core books, and won't even touch something in 3pp books or in blogs and forums.
I like to see things like this though, and I hope to see more GMs be willing to work with these rules to not only create items unique to their game, but items unique to the players in their games. In fantasy, there are many, many examples of characters finding magic items that are unique and unlike anything else in their world.
Keep up the good work.
I love creating magic items and i often can spend many an hour in the pub with my gming colleage hammering out abilities and prices for magic items. However we normally work on items at a higher level because our players always get staples first then look at custom items.
The shield is sweet and i like the cloak, its flavourful and its cost to effect is about right, 30 rnds a day for about a quarter or the price of the ring seems fair.
However your ring of energy resistance is very cheap, your math is solid and you provide a good argument for it but the same effect as an existing item in the same slot at a fraction of the price seems just a little too good. I see the RAW you quoted but i personally always use cleric/druid/wizard spell lists as the baseline for anything but consumables, if i had a ranger player who took craft ring (which seems unlikely) i don't think i would let them create the item.
The belt is just far to good for its price, turning a full round casting spell into a free action even for a very limited ten rounds per day for such a low price seems like poor planning. Enlarge in potion form is cheap but still takes a full round to use effectively unless you build for faster chugging, ten rounds (potions) costs 5/8 of your belt, i would be pricing such an item in around the 3-5000 area as the item is similar to boots of speed which are grossly underpriced. If i told my barbarian player that they could have ten rounds of enlarge person per day and turn it on and off with a free action for 3500 i'm pretty sure they would still buy it, i think part of the design ideal behind the magic item creation rules is if the players rip your hand off to get it then it is probably too good.
On another note is this a good item?
Ego's vest of saving a spell slot
Faint conjuration cl 1
Body 4000gp 2lb
a fine double breasted blue silk vest embroided with arcane runes in delicate silver thread and two rows of three silver buttons. This vest provides a +4 armour bonus to AC as per mage armour, this is a force effect which does not stack with normal armour and cannot be improved with further enhancement or armour abilities.
Craft wonderous item, mage armour, 2000gp
typed on my mobile so didn't fill in the bumf, this item is ideal for any arcane caster, its the best protection you can hope for up to around level 9 and works out at a quarter of the price of bracers using up a less used slot at the expense of being abile to add fortification or a similar ability.
Would you let your mage player have one? I think i would but i would double the price.
Ps: i know mage armour is a harsh example for this experiment but its still a legal use of these "rules", labelled in the crb as "guidelines" to "estimate" magic item values.
Any effects providing an armor bonus follow the bracers of armor rule.
Bracers of armor are exactly like mage armor, they also affect incorporeals.
So, no, your vest doesn't work. it would be priced at 16k at minimum, the cost of any other +4 armor effect.
========
I'm more about finding unusual uses for existing items or magic.
Like the efficient quiver. Did you know that it can hold more coin then anything this side of a Portable Hole? It's true. Instead of Javelins in the middle compartment, and staves/bows in the big one, put in hollow tubes that can hold coins.
If you figure 10 coins to the inch, 18 javelin equivs at 3' long and 6 staves at 6' long, well, that's 80 feet of pipe at 10 coins to the inch, or 9600 gp, which would be 960 lbs.
Efficient quivers have no weight limit, mind you.
==Aelryinth
I like what I'm seeing in this thread. I'll have to take notes :p.
Also, there's an item that was in 3/.5 that I absolutely loved... And have yet to really find in it's base functionality in PF. I'm talking of course, of a (insert bladed weapon here) of Vampiric Touch (AKA Vampiric [weapon]). I have found the Sword of Life Stealing, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm looking for something more along the lines of heal/gain temporary hit points = (some amount of damage dealt).
Might I make a request from fellow, more creation savvy gamers, to come up with a dagger/rapier that I have loved to use since the earliest days of my gaming?
Vampiric Regeneration of any sort of hideously powerful. There's a reason it was the rarest version of the RIng of Regeneration even in 1E.
A character able to get life back continuously as he does damage is nigh unkillable in this game, barring a failed save or two. Such a weapon would be EXTREMELY expensive.
==Aelryinth
The most overpowered magic item you can make with the crafting rules is the item that casts cure light wounds an unlimited number of times per day. If it takes no body slot, it only costs 4000 gold. Items like that are where the rules break down.
So just to compare the belt to the nearest similar thing i can find which are the boots of speed.
Spell level times caster level times four for the round per level spell duration times 2000gp
3x10x4x2000 or 240000gp for haste 100% of the time. Charged items are divided by 5 for uses per day, 48000 base value for an item that casts haste on you once per day use activated at caster level ten, boots of haste not only do this as a free action which is fair enough but they do it in individual rounds which i consider to be more useful. Obviously 48000 gp base price for this effect is far to much, i still think 12000gp is a bargin, but quartering the base price is what we get to.
Belt of orgesize
Spell level x caster level x 2000 x 2 for mins per level duration
1x1x2000x2 or 4000 gp
divided by 5 for one round per level is 800, divided by 4 as boots of speed is 200gp for 10 rounds per day of enlarge.
If you follow the magic item builing guidelines then you can end up with silly prices and thats where the gm has to step in and provide gm fiat. Working the belt out as the boots goes to show that the game designers throw out their own guidelines for item creation every now and again, i love the idea pf the belt like i said but i just think its too cheap for ten rounds a day on and off at will.
Given i think the boots are too cheap anyway i think an effect as good as enlarge should.probably be about 1/3 the cost of the boots as its basicly the same mechanic but 1/3 the spell level. I'd price it at 4000gp for the belt at 10 rounds per day, but once again thats gm fiat and ymmv.
...One problem I see is the ring of elemental warding. By the book, a ring of energy resistance (minor) grants the exact same resistance 10 . . . and it costs 12,000 gp, not your 3,000. Resist energy is a 2nd level spell, so that is 2,000 x spell level (2) x caster level (3), which equals 12,000 gp. Resist energy is only a lvl 1 spell for a ranger; am I wrong?
MA
The ring of energy resistance (minor) in the book is incorrect. It is an example of incorrect copy/pasta from the 3.5 book. In Pathfinder, you use the lowest caster level and spell level available to determine the price of the item, regardless of who creates it.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.Thus the correct price for an energy resistance (minor) ring is in fact 3,000 gp. There are other examples of mistakes found within the rulebooks. For example, Ogres are not proficient in the greatclubs they are listed as wielding, and should either be wielding a simple weapon or have their to-hit reduced by 4.
A similar concern is sinking funds into
You should note that this means that only Rangers can create this ring at 3000gp and how many rangers Take Forge Ring at Tenth Level when that can take this feat? it is more likely that a Wizard or a cleric would which is why the Price is where it it set at so it is not a true example if Cut and paste just useing the most common class to make the item because you still can not take it below the minimum caster level of the person making the item.
on the other hand Here is one thats at my table
Armbands of Defense 9000gp
3 time per each effect/ per day the wear of the armbands can create a Mage armor and shield spell.
The Armor spell last for 3 hours while the shield last for 3 minutes each effect must be activated separately
Requirments Mage Armor, Shield Cost 4500GP
CL 3
You will note that the boots of speed don't actually apply the x4 multiplier, and there's good reason for that. It wouldn't be reasonably priced otherwise.
Tell me Egoish, how many times do martial characters in your games buy boots of speed? 1 out of 3? 1 out of 2? 2 out of 3?
In my experience, it hovers somewhere between 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 2, and that's what I like to see in an item. Something that challenges the players to struggle with themselves over whether to take that or something else that needs to be in the slot.
Now with the Belt of Extended Ogresize (which was designed to ameliorate issues for those who were concerned about the price) you're going to have a few martial characters who want it. Characters that benefit from the size and reach and feel it's worth their belt slot and 4800 gold, but I guarantee you it won't be every martial character, nor will it be every beatstick type martial character. It's a useful tool at a reasonable price.
When designing items like this you have to remember that there are core essential items that everybody has to have to function. If you make custom items too expensive for them to get both, they will never touch your custom items because they simply can't afford to.
i agree with your reasonably priced objective, if the boots of speed did cost 48000gp they would be far too expensive to buy however i stand by my point that 12000gp is cheap for the items effect. In my home games they still only cost that much as i am not one to question the intent of the developers when they created the item, i like to think i know a good deal when i see one though and they are a pretty good deal.
nearly every character who can get a use out of boots of speed will get them eventually as they are probably the best boots available other than flying or teleportation for none martial types, and even then they are far far cheaper for the effect they provide. i honestly cannot imagine any of the players around my table (including myself when i play) not having these boots by level 10 on a character who will get use out of them.
as far as the belt goes after some more thought i like your new pricing structure, its worth while bearing in mind that the boots of speed have no clear competitor while the belt is competing for a stat boosting slot.
now the 800gp version of the belt is just far to good for its price, there is no way that any str based medium sized fighter type is not going to want one at level 2 or 3 as its basicly a belt of str +2 with the benefit of increasing your damage dice and reach. the problem really becomes apparent when you get between levels 6 and 8 and you find you have set a precident for a cheap item that gives you enlarge for 10 rounds a day for 800gp in a belt slot that can now be tagged onto a belt of str +4 for a mere 1200gp, now thats value.
having given it some thought i think the price you suggested for the 30 rnds per day belt is probably about right in the 4800gp area however i would prefer to keep the price a little lower and keep the usage at 10 rnds per day to avoid it always being on in every fight, if we set the price at 3000gp for 10 rounds per day it is still a strong item and adding it to your belt of str +4 is only 4500gp which is still a quality buy for an 8th level character.
the difference you really need to see between the two items is the likelyhood that someone else will cast the spell on you anyway, in most parties boots of speed are used at low levels when haste isn't up every fight or at high levels when the wearer is out of possition for the haste that the party buffer is firing off in the first round of combat.
the belt is more likely to be used as a staple combat buff for a melee type, enlarge is a spell i often see memorised around my home table as at 1st level a wizard casting enlarge on a fighter is more useful than one who casts magic missile, at higher levels use off this buff tails off for a number of reasons... mostly casting time, priority, duration and permenancy, ie it takes to long, there are better buffs, it drops after one fight and if you really want it you can have it all the time for a relatively cheap price.
having typed all this i just decided to look up the cost of a permanent enlarge person and its only 2500gp so the belt should cost less than that though not much as it has several advantages over the permanent version, i'd probably ad hoc the price to 2000gp for ten rounds and then at least when you add it as a secondary effect on a belt it costs 3000gp which is slightly more than a permanent fixture but probably more useful dispite the limited usage per day due to the ability to turn off and on at will thus bypassing the ogre in a normal tavern issue and obviously being harder to destroy as it cannot just be dispelled.
The most overpowered magic item you can make with the crafting rules is the item that casts cure light wounds an unlimited number of times per day. If it takes no body slot, it only costs 4000 gold. Items like that are where the rules break down.
It's actually amusing that you feel the item creation rules break down with infinite cure light wounds. Healing is horribly underpowered in 3.x/Pathfinder, and attrition doesn't work for hit points even in a game without cure light wounds at will.
You're basically talking about recovering 50 HP per minute spent using your magic healing stick or whatever have you. That's nice between fights, but there are already very easy ways to do the same thing. Cure light wounds wands are one of the most traditional methods of doing so, and it costs around 750gp market price for 250 HP worth of healing.
So essentially all you're talking about is being able to recharge hit point totals between battles, assuming you have time. That's generally fine, since attrition doesn't work if the party isn't pressed for time anyway.
If this is all it takes to break your game, I'm sorry, but you shall probably experience something actually difficult or broken sometime pretty soon. Especially if you play into the mid to high levels and actually use the options presented in the core rulebook (and I do not mean magic item creation).
I LOVE creating magic items, even if I am not all that great at it. I do wish that the rules for creation and pricing were clearer, and I hope that should some revisions of the rules ever be done that is one thing that is tackled.
I like what I see here, and I think you are right with pointing out that the rules are core. Unfortunatly, creating magic items is an extra process, a little misunderstood, and can be a pain if done wrong. I think because of that most GMs just don't want to bother with it and thus consider it to be a "fringe rule" when it isn't. On top of that, most of the GMs I play with only want to use items in core books, and won't even touch something in 3pp books or in blogs and forums.
I like to see things like this though, and I hope to see more GMs be willing to work with these rules to not only create items unique to their game, but items unique to the players in their games. In fantasy, there are many, many examples of characters finding magic items that are unique and unlike anything else in their world.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks. By combining different effects, we can create some really cool magic items (the shield example was a normal magic item with a cool kicker effect, for example). I too enjoy magic items that are flavorful and do interesting things. :)
I like what I'm seeing in this thread. I'll have to take notes :p.
Also, there's an item that was in 3/.5 that I absolutely loved... And have yet to really find in it's base functionality in PF. I'm talking of course, of a (insert bladed weapon here) of Vampiric Touch (AKA Vampiric [weapon]). I have found the Sword of Life Stealing, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm looking for something more along the lines of heal/gain temporary hit points = (some amount of damage dealt).
Might I make a request from fellow, more creation savvy gamers, to come up with a dagger/rapier that I have loved to use since the earliest days of my gaming?
There were some weapon crystals in the 3.5 D&D Magic Item Compendium that you could attach to your weapons that made them steal up to a certain amount of HP from enemies each day and a certain amount each swing (such a 1 HP each swing up to 10 HP per day). I believe they came in tiers, such as lesser, normal, and greater.
Alternatively, let's see if I can't cook you up something that's balanced using the special weapons in the book as a guideline.
==================
The most direct would probably be a sword that used a CL 5 vampiric touch each time the sword successfully landed. The sword would have to be a +1 weapon before further abilities can be added, and we will use the use-activated cost * 1.5 because we're adding a related special ability (it's a spell targeting the victim of the strike) to the weapon. That'd be about 47,315 gp counting the +1 masterwork longsword.
It might look something like this.
The Vampire's Bite
Aura faint necromancy; CL 5th
Slot none; Price 47,315 gp; Weight 4 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This +1 longsword has an obsidian-colored blade etched with blood red runes along the length of the blade that seem to draw blood from the blade within them. The blade deals an additional 7 points of damage to any living creature struck with it, and grants the wielder an equal amount of temporary hit points. This damage (and by result temporary hit points) is multiplied on a successful critical hit. The wielder cannot gain more than the wounded creature's current hit points plus its Constitution score from an attack. Temporary hit points from the same source do not stack (they overlap). Temporary hit points gained this way are lost after 1 hour.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Magic Arms & Armor, vampiric touch; Cost 23,815 gp
In terms of value, it's a very nice ability. It is comparable in value to existing swords such as the sword of life stealing, the life-drinker, and similar weapons. As a GM myself, I think it might actually be a bit overpriced since the Life-drinker is more powerful, but the life-drinker has a drawback requiring you to ward yourself against negative levels before using it, which was certainly estimated into the final tally by its creators.
Another one I wanted to do was the quiver of plenty and it's upgraded versions. This is a spin on the quiver that Catie Brie used, and it also a homage to the item of the same name in the Baldur's Gate series. In Baldur's Gate you could acquire a Quiver of Plenty, +1, and +2, which essentially produces arrows of the appropriate type as desired.
Quiver of Plenty
Aura faint conjuration; CL 1st (mundane), 5th (+1), 8th (+2), 12th (+3), 16th (+4), 20th (+5)
Slot none; Price 2,000 gp (mundane), 33,000 gp (+1 bonus), 51,000 gp (+2 bonus), 75,000 gp (+3 bonus), 99,000 gp (+4 bonus), 123,000 (+5 bonus), adamantine +6,000 gp, alchemical silver +200 gp, cold iron +1,200 gp; Weight 1 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
These magical quivers seem well made and decorated with elvish runes. Each quiver is created with a full set of arrows, and when an arrow is removed, the arrow is replenished in the quiver. Arrows removed from the quiver vanish after being used. Some quivers can be created to create adamantine, cold iron, and/or alchemical silver arrows. Finally, certain quivers of plenty are endowed with exceptional enchantments that bestow an enhancement bonus on all arrows drawn from the quiver. These arrows can bypass magic damage reduction but not other types of special damage reductions as normal magic weapons can.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, abundant ammunition, greater magic weapon (if created with enhancement bonuses); Cost 1,000 gp (mundane), 16,500 gp (+1 bonus), 25,500 gp (+2 bonus), 37,500 gp (+3 bonus), 49,500 gp (+4 bonus), 61,500 gp (+5 bonus), +3,000 (adamantine), +100 gp (alchemical silver), +600 gp (cold iron).
Also, before anyone cries foul because of infinite ammo, let's look at some things right quick. The cost of the cheapest version of the magic item is the same as 40,000 arrows, which thanks to things like bags of holding are easy to carry around anyway. This is just a less silly method of doing so. The enhancement bonuses on the weapons are the same as having a single level-appropriate greater magic weapon cast on the item each day, so buying these versions is actually more of a convenience purchase than needed. Finally, the special materials are only beneficial in certain circumstances, so they were factored as per having 100 arrows of each, because you won't get a lot of use out of them but it's nice if you payed the extra for "insurance purposes" (it's also not really as special since there's a PF feat that basically lets archers laugh at damage reduction by applying their DR once after tallying the damage from all their arrows each round).
The belt is just far to good for its price, turning a full round casting spell into a free action even for a very limited ten rounds per day for such a low price seems like poor planning. Enlarge in potion form is cheap but still takes a full round to use effectively unless you build for faster chugging, ten rounds (potions) costs 5/8 of your belt, i would be pricing such an item in around the 3-5000 area as the item is similar to boots of speed which are grossly underpriced. If i told my barbarian player that they could have ten rounds of enlarge person per day and turn it on and off with a free action for 3500 i'm pretty sure they would still buy it, i think part of the design ideal behind the magic item creation rules is if the players rip your hand off to get it then it is probably too good.
As someone who uses NPCs with potions regularly, I can say that I would consider 3,500 gp to be very overpriced for 10 rounds of enlarge person. It's a common buff, like haste, and similar things. I think this is really just a matter of opinion as to whether or not it's overpriced. I think it's just fine (not too much, not too little) for the benefit that it gives.
I likewise find no problem with the boots of speed, which have retained their price for three editions now (3E, 3.5, and Pathfinder) with no worries. They are a commonly appreciated magic item, and mentioned fairly often on the boards as being a nice item (but not overpowered). They were even used as the example item (primarily for their fluffy heel clicking activation mind you) for the RPG Superstar event.
If you actually want to see a magic item, a wondrous item in fact, that is actually obviously underpriced, see the ioun stone torch in the Advanced Player's Guide. The magic item costs 75 gp market price, half that to create, and is a burnt out dull gray ioun stone with a continuous continual flame on it. The reason it's horribly underpriced is burnt out gray ioun stones are 50 gp (this value was listed in the 3E DMG) and the cost to have continual flame cast is in excess of one hundred gold (material cost component, plus cost of casting). It likewise cannot be dispelled since it's a wondrous item, whereas a normal continual flame can be dispelled.
Compare to the everburning torch in the core rulebook which is 110 gp market price and is seriously just a club with continual flame cast on it. So it's a 75 gp everburning torch that requires no hands and cannot be dispelled (dispelling it only shuts the light off for 1d4 rounds).
Now this item I would quickly agree is way underpriced.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Loving this! Keep up the awesome work Ashiel!
You should note that this means that only Rangers can create this ring at 3000gp and how many rangers Take Forge Ring at Tenth Level when that can take this feat? it is more likely that a Wizard or a cleric would which is why the Price is where it it set at so it is not a true example if Cut and paste just useing the most common class to make the item because you still can not take it below the minimum caster level of the person making the item.
No it doesn't. I quoted the relevant text already, but I shall do so again.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Thus it does not matter which class makes a magic item. The item's price and value are always based on the lowest available source. This means you can happily purchase CL 1 potions of resist energy if you so desire. Same with the ring. It is incorrectly priced in the core rulebook, and is most likely a holdover from 3.x where you ended up having to recalculate the magic item prices depending on who made them (such as a sorcerer vs wizard crafting the same magic items).
AntediluvianXIII wrote:
Hey, Ashiel, do me a favour and check my post in the Rules Question forum under Pathfinder Dad Needs Help about a 'Self Loading 2 Barrel Pistol'. Please.....pretty please..;)
Linked for you
Thanks for the link Kyrt. I'll try to check the thread in a while. In the meantime, I have to go run a D&D game for my friends, so I'll be back on later. ^-^
Loving this! Keep up the awesome work Ashiel!
Wow, thank you Mr. Wesley. I appreciate that a lot. ^-^
Wow, thank you Mr. Wesley. I appreciate that a lot. ^-^
No prob and well deserved!
For one reason or another a lot of folks seem to shy away from building their own magic items. This might be a topic for another thread - I'm not trying to derail here, so do start up a new thread and link it here if you feel like getting into this - but why do you think that is (beyond that the system is mighty and daunting!) and do you feel like you've come up with any tricks that have helped you overcome your magic item creatophobia?
As someone who uses NPCs with potions regularly, I can say that I would consider 3,500 gp to be very overpriced for 10 rounds of enlarge person. It's a common buff, like haste, and similar things. I think this is really just a matter of opinion as to whether or not it's overpriced. I think it's just fine (not too much, not too little) for the benefit that it gives.
I likewise find no problem with the boots of speed, which have retained their price for three editions now (3E, 3.5, and Pathfinder) with no worries. They are a commonly appreciated magic item, and mentioned fairly often on the boards as being a nice item (but not overpowered). They were even used as the example item (primarily for their fluffy heel clicking activation mind you) for the RPG Superstar event.
If you actually want to see a magic item, a wondrous item in fact, that is actually obviously underpriced, see the ioun stone torch in the Advanced Player's Guide. The magic item costs 75 gp market price, half that to create, and is a burnt out dull gray ioun stone with a continuous continual flame on it. The reason it's horribly underpriced is burnt out gray ioun stones are 50 gp (this value was listed in the 3E DMG) and the cost to have continual flame cast is in excess of one hundred gold (material cost component, plus cost of casting). It likewise cannot be dispelled since it's a wondrous item, whereas a normal continual flame can be dispelled.
Compare to the everburning torch in the core rulebook which is 110 gp market price and is seriously just a club with continual flame cast on it. So it's a 75 gp everburning torch that requires no hands and cannot be dispelled (dispelling it only shuts the light off for 1d4 rounds).
Now this item I would quickly agree is way underpriced.
Having done a bit more thinking on the matter i have revised my pricing estimate since then and i do agree that my initial reaction resulted in me coming up with a price higher than it should have been.
If you check out the post i put up before yours i have revised my pricing estimate for the item down to 2000gp and posted my reasoning in there as well, however for the recond the primary reason for my objection to the item is that an PC or even NPC using a potion suffers on the side of action economy and the belt in the way you have written it allows that action economy to be bypassed, i have no problem with bypassing this in the same way as boots of speed and i love the idea of shouting "by the power of greyskull!" and watching my gm cringe but 800gp for an on/off free action enlarge person i still stand by as too cheap.
I'd personally go for,
Belt of Orgesize
Aura faint transmutation; CL 1st
Slot belt; Price 2,000 gp Weight 2 lb.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This study leather belt is studded with wolf bones and bear teeth. When worn, the wearer may unleash a mighty battle-cry (a free action) to double in size as if by the enlarge person spell. He can remain enlarged for up to 10 rounds per day. Rounds spent enlarged needn't be consecutive.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, enlarge person; Cost 1,000 gp
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Thus it does not matter which class makes a magic item. The item's price and value are always based on the lowest available source. This means you can happily purchase CL 1 potions of resist energy if you so desire. Same with the ring. It is incorrectly priced in the core rulebook, and is most likely a holdover from 3.x where you ended up having to recalculate the magic item prices depending on who made them (such as a sorcerer vs wizard crafting the same magic items).
Just had a thought. Where it says calculate the market price based upon the lowest level caster: a sorcerer/wizard or cleric gets the 2nd level resist energy at 3rd level. A ranger doesn't get access to spells until 4th level.
Now, it might not make a difference, but the wording doesn't say lowest possible caster level; it says lowest possible level caster. Three is lower than four. Which might mean this item is illegal as designed.
Master Arminas
Wow, thank you Mr. Wesley. I appreciate that a lot. ^-^No prob and well deserved!
For one reason or another a lot of folks seem to shy away from building their own magic items. This might be a topic for another thread - I'm not trying to derail here, so do start up a new thread and link it here if you feel like getting into this - but why do you think that is (beyond that the system is mighty and daunting!) and do you feel like you've come up with any tricks that have helped you overcome your magic item creatophobia?
just to answer the question that popped up while i was typing, i think the main problem is that the rules themselves are a more guidelines than set in stone rules. ashiel seems confident using them and making judgement calls on the items he creates and i feel the same way dispite the fact we may disagree on pricing or other details.
many people who look at item creation probably see it as the realm of the gm and something they don't like to get involved in, i normally encourage my players to put some time into thinking up a signiture item and work with them a bit to get the effect they want without creating a timebomb so by the time they are hitting level 8+ they have an item for which they can be recognised by people in the know.
however my first item was back in 3.5 when i created a magical holy symbol for my cleric of pelor since it was basicly the most important item on my character sheet and there were no epic options available to pimp it out, if i recall correctly i plowed a load of gold into it having it hardened vs sunder attempts, emit light and fire searing rays. after making the first one you want to carry on, everyone should aspire to creating an "Ashiel's Belt of the Ogre", just like that Handy Haversack that cannot be named.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Thus it does not matter which class makes a magic item. The item's price and value are always based on the lowest available source. This means you can happily purchase CL 1 potions of resist energy if you so desire. Same with the ring. It is incorrectly priced in the core rulebook, and is most likely a holdover from 3.x where you ended up having to recalculate the magic item prices depending on who made them (such as a sorcerer vs wizard crafting the same magic items).
Just had a thought. Where it says calculate the market price based upon the lowest level caster: a sorcerer/wizard or cleric gets the 2nd level resist energy at 3rd level. A ranger doesn't get access to spells until 4th level.
Now, it might not make a difference, but the wording doesn't say lowest possible caster level; it says lowest possible level caster. Three is lower than four. Which might mean this item is illegal as designed.
Master Arminas
A 4th level ranger has a caster level of 1.
I like the items you've come up with here. I just can't say that I'd ever use them in the games I run as they are right now. I'd have to either remove the free action from both the cloak and belt, or increase the cost on both by a large amount. But that's just personal preference, I suppose. The way they stand right now just leaves too much room for abuse.
I like the items you've come up with here. I just can't say that I'd ever use them in the games I run as they are right now. I'd have to either remove the free action from both the cloak and belt, or increase the cost on both by a large amount. But that's just personal preference, I suppose. The way they stand right now just leaves too much room for abuse.Could you explain the abuse you're thinking of?
Stand directly infront of an enemy. Use a free action to go invisible. Full attack out of invisibility, gaining all the bonuses therein. And then use another free action to go invisible again when done. Since the item is broken up into rounds instead of uses, you've only actually used a single round of invisibility.
Same sort of situation for the belt. Free action large to gain the benefits of everything, full attack, etc. Cancel at the end of round to dump the loss to AC. And you still have many more rounds to go.
Alternatively with the belt, let's put it on a caster. So let's say you're standing 10 feet away from an enemy, and you want to cast a touch spell on him without endangering yourself. Cast your spell, enlarge as a free action, make your touch attack as a free action, cancel your enlarge. Move away without any threat of AoO.
I keep to my personal belief that items with x amount of rounds per day are far superior to x amount of uses per day. Boots of speed that burned haste all at once would be much less effective than the way they currently are, for example.
I like the items you've come up with here. I just can't say that I'd ever use them in the games I run as they are right now. I'd have to either remove the free action from both the cloak and belt, or increase the cost on both by a large amount. But that's just personal preference, I suppose. The way they stand right now just leaves too much room for abuse.Could you explain the abuse you're thinking of?
re reading the cloak if you were feeling abusive you could pretend your opponents couldn't see you between attacks (a free action) and basicly have greater invisibility as its written. Thats if your feeling really abusive and your dm doesn't slap you though. ROI is obviously once per round, its the little things we sometimes miss that cause the gm/player arguments.
The belt doesn't say you can cancel it at will. Magical effects persist for an entire round unless noted that you can will them away as another free action.
Thus, the belt's enlarge would persist until the beginning of your next turn, at which point you can decide if it will go on for another round or not. It doesn't say anywhere that you can make it do 'partial rounds'. In effect, it's similar to a barbarian choosing when to end his rage..the only time he can is the beginning of his turn, not the end.
And most free actions concerning spells CANNOT be done twice a turn. So, turning invisible might be a free action once, but that doesn't mean you can do it twice a round.
==Aelryinth