Why don't monks have a fast BAB progression like other fighty classes?
From a thematic perspective, monks seem to be all about combat and martial training. While it may not be of the same scope as a fighter's training, it is still heavily martially influenced.
Likewise, monks already gain most of the advantages of a high BAB. They benefit from the fast progression whenever they make a full attack. Additionally, at level three, they benefit from a high BAB whenever they defend against combat maneuvers. About the only time they don't benefit from a high BAB is during single attacks or when qualifying for feats.
Would it be such a crime to bump them up to a standard progression? Doing so would practically remove any ambiguity or complexity in the flurry of blows rule, which has been a source of confusion for two editions now.
Is there a balance or thematic reason for their mid level BAB that I am missing?
Paizo didn't want them to have a d10 HD. They also didn't want a class with Full BAB and all good saves. This also means that monks can't qualify for feats as soon as other martial classes.
It would not be overpowered to bump them up, but Paizo has decided not to.
Look at monks get and compare it to base fighter class. To give them Full BAB and D10 hit dice would be over the top.
Monks get 6 bonus to choose from limited list that doesn't require them to meet pre-requisites. They also get 2 set bonus feats. As well they get Flurry of blows which gives them the TWF tree with out meeting perquisites, attack count as Full BAB with it and they apply full str to off hand attacks. This 3 more feats (twf, Imp TWF, greater TWF). This is 11 feats that they get the same as the fighter. Then the monk get evasion and improved evasion which equivalent to a feat since these are both ninja tricks and ninja ticks are equivalent to a feat. The monk hands down beats the fighter here for feats.
Then there is AC bonus which is equivalent to Armor training. +5 AC and add your wisdom modifier your AC bonus.
Improved unarmed damage isn't as good a weapon training as it's only damage dice but it's still quite good. But Flurry of Blows is like +5 to hit by allowing it be done a Full BAB. So I'd say this comes close.
The monk ability with the Stunning Fist feat is equivalent to Bravery.
So the monk get 2 more good save, more skill point, more class skills but is limited in weapons and can't armor.
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB.
Ganymede425 wrote: voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB. I guess if they lost one of the best save it might work out, but full BAB, all good saves, and 6 skill points is more than what any one class needs.
PS:In Pathfinder the D10 comes with full BAB. Now PF could make an exception, but I think the issue of having all good saves is more important than an extra hp on average every level.
Ganymede425 wrote: From a thematic perspective, monks seem to be all about combat and martial training. Not quite thematically their focus is split into 3 groups: Mental, Physical, and Spiritual. The “Martial Artist” archetype would be an example of a monk with only Mental and Physical focuses, but the standard monk is about all three.
There are several ways to make monks into good combatants, there are several Guides around the boards to attest to that, and depending on what material you are allowed to use you can build some scary characters.
I remember one about using a githzerai monk with a trait that gave proficiency with a single simple or martial weapon (in this case taking the scimitar) and taking Dervish Dance at level 3, that seemed pretty solid.
Magus Black wrote:
There are several ways to make monks into good combatants, there are several Guides around the boards to attest to that, and depending on what material you are allowed to use you can build some scary characters.
That isn't my point. My point is that I can't imagine any thematic or balance reasons for giving a monk a Pseudo high BAB instead of an actual high BAB.
The pseudo high BAB is not supported by anything in the monk's theme. Likewise, there seems to be no balance rationalle for the restriction. Lastly, the pseudo high BAB introduces an extra level of complexity that simply isn't necesary.
wraithstrike wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB. I guess if they lost one of the best save it might work out, but full BAB, all good saves, and 6 skill points is more than what any one class needs.
Is there some Errata somewhere of which I'm unaware giving Monks 6 skill points per level? It's not a huge boost, but it would certainly be appreciated.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
If you look at the DPR Olympics the monk right now is very close to the fighter as is. If built properly a Monk can hit almost as hard as a Two-Handed Fighter. Now lets rebuild it and allow them to qualify for feats just as well as the fighter, increase the HP and put on top of that the fact that they are moving at triple the speed of the fighter, Free SR, all high saves and a smattering of other abilities that range from not bad to pretty nice.
Since the Monk already is so close to the Fighter in DPR ALREADY and they get all this other stuff on top, I think keeping them at d8 and 3/4 BAB is fine. They seem to be well balanced as is.
Monks have full CMB and a smaller BAB. This encourages them to use combat manuevers (which depend on CMB) to set up an opponent for a strike (which depends on BAB). It makes them fight like martial artists.
Their BAB is a feature.
kyrt-ryder wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB. I guess if they lost one of the best save it might work out, but full BAB, all good saves, and 6 skill points is more than what any one class needs.
Is there some Errata somewhere of which I'm unaware giving Monks 6 skill points per level? It's not a huge boost, but it would certainly be appreciated. Probably taking Human skills bonus and Favored Class skill points into account. I know I do that sometimes when thinking on skills.
voska66 wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB. I guess if they lost one of the best save it might work out, but full BAB, all good saves, and 6 skill points is more than what any one class needs.
Is there some Errata somewhere of which I'm unaware giving Monks 6 skill points per level? It's not a huge boost, but it would certainly be appreciated. Probably taking Human skills bonus and Favored Class skill points into account. I know I do that sometimes when thinking on skills. I do it too, but that doesn't make the Monk a 6 skill class. It makes it a 4 skill class in which you're expending resources that could be spent elsewhere.
Ganymede425 wrote: Magus Black wrote:
There are several ways to make monks into good combatants, there are several Guides around the boards to attest to that, and depending on what material you are allowed to use you can build some scary characters.
That isn't my point. My point is that I can't imagine any thematic or balance reasons for giving a monk a Pseudo high BAB instead of an actual high BAB.
The pseudo high BAB is not supported by anything in the monk's theme. Likewise, there seems to be no balance rationalle for the restriction. Lastly, the pseudo high BAB introduces an extra level of complexity that simply isn't necesary. A full BAB monk is too powerful. You'd have to cut out a lot of their other abilities to make it work. To actually do this you'd be better off making Alternate class of fighter that is similar to the monk but purely combat oriented.
We tried a Full BAB monk in the play test. The Hit Dice didn't change much, on average 1 extra per level but a Human monk who has Weapon Focus, Power Attack and Dodge at 1st level was doing quite awesome. It wasn't till higher level the issues started showing up. Power attack scales farther and faster with Full BAB. The impact of that at level 17 was really noticeable. It wasn't horrible but the monk was out damaging the fighter easily.
Voska, you're forgetting something. A Monk already gets the full benefits of full BAB (power attack damage included) on a full attack action when he really brings the hurt.
All full BAB does is finally bring the Monk into proper alignment. No more of this 'full BAB maneuvers, full BAB full attack, not full BAB standard attack' crap.
A level 16 Monk and a level 16 Fighter, during a Full Attack with Power Attack, take a -5 penalty to Attack for the appropriate bonus damage per hit.
voska66 wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: voska66 wrote:
Now every ability the monk gets is above what the fighter gets and all that for trading Full BAB and 1D10 Hit dice and not qualifying for fighter feats. Seems more than fair to me.
"Seems more than fair to me," sounds like you're implying that monks get a better deal out of the arrangement.
Just to clarify, though, I was not advocating that monks get a D10 hit die, just that they be bumped to a full BAB instead of a pseudo full BAB. I guess if they lost one of the best save it might work out, but full BAB, all good saves, and 6 skill points is more than what any one class needs.
Is there some Errata somewhere of which I'm unaware giving Monks 6 skill points per level? It's not a huge boost, but it would certainly be appreciated. Probably taking Human skills bonus and Favored Class skill points into account. I know I do that sometimes when thinking on skills. Actually I just misremembered, but I still think if they want full BAB they should drop a save.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Voska, you're forgetting something. A Monk already gets the full benefits of full BAB (power attack damage included) on a full attack action when he really brings the hurt.
All full BAB does is finally bring the Monk into proper alignment. No more of this 'full BAB maneuvers, full BAB full attack, not full BAB standard attack' crap.
A level 16 Monk and a level 16 Fighter, during a Full Attack with Power Attack, take a -5 penalty to Attack for the appropriate bonus damage per hit.
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
Darkwing Duck wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Voska, you're forgetting something. A Monk already gets the full benefits of full BAB (power attack damage included) on a full attack action when he really brings the hurt.
All full BAB does is finally bring the Monk into proper alignment. No more of this 'full BAB maneuvers, full BAB full attack, not full BAB standard attack' crap.
A level 16 Monk and a level 16 Fighter, during a Full Attack with Power Attack, take a -5 penalty to Attack for the appropriate bonus damage per hit.
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat. I fail to see where you're getting that idea. Every tool has an appropriate situation. If an opponent is a viable trip target and you have the feats/gear to support it, of course you're going to trip them. If you're qualified to disarm effectively and they're wielding a weapon that seems to be a big part of their offense, of course you're going to disarm them. Having real Full BAB instead of almost Full BAB doesn't change that.
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern.
voska66 wrote: A full BAB monk is too powerful. I am? News to me...
Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern. And many of us don't think the fullBAB thing is a genuine concern. It feels to me like its motivated only by the desire to have a class do ridiculously high amounts of damage.
Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern. And many of us don't think the fullBAB thing is a genuine concern. It feels to me like its motivated only by the desire to have a class do ridiculously high amounts of damage. Would you mind explaining how real Full BAB supposedly makes a Monk's damage 'ridiculously high' for us please DW? They already have full BAB during Full Attacks which is when the real damage accumulation actually happens.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern. And many of us don't think the fullBAB thing is a genuine concern. It feels to me like its motivated only by the desire to have a class do ridiculously high amounts of damage. Would you mind explaining how real Full BAB supposedly makes a Monk's damage 'ridiculously high' for us please DW? They already have full BAB during Full Attacks which is when the real damage accumulation actually happens. The monk class is not designed to stick in one place and trade punches. On average, its hit points and AC are less than fighter types. So, it doessn't spend a lot of time in combat getting full BAB.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Darkwing Duck wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern. And many of us don't think the fullBAB thing is a genuine concern. It feels to me like its motivated only by the desire to have a class do ridiculously high amounts of damage. Would you mind explaining how real Full BAB supposedly makes a Monk's damage 'ridiculously high' for us please DW? They already have full BAB during Full Attacks which is when the real damage accumulation actually happens. The monk class is not designed to stick in one place and trade punches. On average, its hit points and AC are less than fighter types. So, it doessn't spend a lot of time in combat getting full BAB. You're confusing me here. On one hand you're arguing against giving Monks full BAB when they move... and then you're trying to say they SHOULD move when their full BAB is restricted to not moving? How the heck does that work.
If you want mobile monks, don't handicap them when they move.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
Full BAB also leads to trip/disarm/grapple/etc. being used less often. In other words,it leads to monks feeling less like martial artists in combat.
I do not feel as if this is a genuine concern. And many of us don't think the fullBAB thing is a genuine concern. It feels to me like its motivated only by the desire to have a class do ridiculously high amounts of damage. Would you mind explaining how real Full BAB supposedly makes a Monk's damage 'ridiculously high' for us please DW? They already have full BAB during Full Attacks which is when the real damage accumulation actually happens. The monk class is not designed to stick in one place and trade punches. On average, its hit points and AC are less than fighter types. So, it doessn't spend a lot of time in combat getting full BAB. You're confusing me here. On one hand you're arguing against giving Monks full BAB when they move... and then you're trying to say they SHOULD move when their full BAB is restricted to not moving? How the heck does that work.
If you want mobile monks, don't handicap them when they move. I'm saying that the monk class is designed so that full BAB flurry is combat option they spend only part of their combat time doing - just like every other combat option they have. The fact that the monk is like a swiss army knife with multiple options (from full BAB flurry to tripping) none of which the monk just spams, is a feature.
Darkwing Duck wrote:
I'm saying that the monk class is designed so that full BAB flurry is combat option they spend only part of their combat time doing - just like every other combat option they have. The fact that the monk is like a swiss army knife with multiple options (from full BAB flurry to tripping) none of which the monk just spams, is a feature.
I do not see how being uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad at single attacks can be considered a class feature, let alone something that gives monks their essential character.
Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
I'm saying that the monk class is designed so that full BAB flurry is combat option they spend only part of their combat time doing - just like every other combat option they have. The fact that the monk is like a swiss army knife with multiple options (from full BAB flurry to tripping) none of which the monk just spams, is a feature.
I do not see how being uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad at single attacks can be considered a class feature, let alone something that gives monks their essential character. That's a ridiculous over-generalization. The monk is not "uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad" at most single attacks (trips, grapples, disarms, etc. - the kinds of attacks most characterstic of martial arts).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
I'm saying that the monk class is designed so that full BAB flurry is combat option they spend only part of their combat time doing - just like every other combat option they have. The fact that the monk is like a swiss army knife with multiple options (from full BAB flurry to tripping) none of which the monk just spams, is a feature.
I do not see how being uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad at single attacks can be considered a class feature, let alone something that gives monks their essential character. That's a ridiculous over-generalization. The monk is not "uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad" at most single attacks (trips, grapples, disarms, etc. - the kinds of attacks most characterstic of martial arts). One: while trips, grapples, and disarms are certainly a part of the martial arts, I'd be loathe to conclude that they were far more characteristic than single strikes. A front kick is just a part of the martial arts as a knee sweep. After all, Daniel Laruso certainly didn't score his final point in the All Valley Tournament with a well placed grapple.
Two: Yes, the monk is bad at single attacks and individual strikes. In fact, all of his abilities encourage him to spend his time doing something else. I find no balance or thematic reason that justifies a monk having this unique drawback.
Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote:
I'm saying that the monk class is designed so that full BAB flurry is combat option they spend only part of their combat time doing - just like every other combat option they have. The fact that the monk is like a swiss army knife with multiple options (from full BAB flurry to tripping) none of which the monk just spams, is a feature.
I do not see how being uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad at single attacks can be considered a class feature, let alone something that gives monks their essential character. That's a ridiculous over-generalization. The monk is not "uncharacteristically and unjustifiably bad" at most single attacks (trips, grapples, disarms, etc. - the kinds of attacks most characterstic of martial arts). One: while trips, grapples, and disarms are certainly a part of the martial arts, I'd be loathe to conclude that they were far more characteristic than single strikes. A front kick is just a part of the martial arts as a knee sweep. After all, Daniel Laruso certainly didn't score his final point in the All Valley Tournament with a well placed grapple.
Two: Yes, the monk is bad at single attacks and individual strikes. In fact, all of his abilities encourage him to spend his time doing something else. I find no balance or thematic reason that justifies a monk having this unique drawback.
Do you honestly have trouble having your monk hit his target with a strike after your monk trips him prone?
I'd like to see what you're doing wrong with your monk.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote:
I have trouble having my monk hit his target with a stroke after my monk trips him prone. Uh duh!!!
Do you honestly have trouble having your monk hit his target with a strike after your monk trips him prone?
I'd like to see what you're doing wrong with your monk. No, I don't.
Now that tangent is over, let's get back to the subject at hand.
One: while trips, grapples, and disarms are certainly a part of the martial arts, I'd be loathe to conclude that they were far more characteristic than single strikes. A front kick is just a part of the martial arts as a knee sweep. After all, Daniel Laruso certainly didn't score his final point in the All Valley Tournament with a well placed grapple.
Two: Yes, the monk is bad at single attacks and individual strikes. In fact, all of his abilities encourage him to spend his time doing something else. I find no balance or thematic reason that justifies a monk having this unique drawback.
Ganymede425 wrote: Darkwing Duck wrote: Ganymede425 wrote:
I have trouble having my monk hit his target with a stroke after my monk trips him prone. Uh duh!!!
Do you honestly have trouble having your monk hit his target with a strike after your monk trips him prone?
I'd like to see what you're doing wrong with your monk. No, I don't.
Now that tangent is over, let's get back to the subject at hand.
One: while trips, grapples, and disarms are certainly a part of the martial arts, I'd be loathe to conclude that they were far more characteristic than single strikes. A front kick is just a part of the martial arts as a knee sweep. After all, Daniel Laruso certainly didn't score his final point in the All Valley Tournament with a well placed grapple.
Two: Yes, the monk is bad at single attacks and individual strikes. In fact, all of his abilities encourage him to spend his time doing something else. I find no balance or thematic reason that justifies a monk having this unique drawback.
Ignoring the obvious fact that Daniel LaRusso was not a monk and ignoring, also, the fact that that movie sets up the move you're talking about as a long shot, I'm glad you recognize that a monk can hit if he actually acts like a monk (ie. sets up his strikes by doing combat manuevers first).
Ontopic question:
Can a monk invalidate his own attack?
Situation: the monk (for ease of math, let's say he's a 20th-level monk) takes a full round action to perform a full attack action and further specifies that he's doing a flurry of blows. Ergo, his first attack is at full BAB with the two-weapon fighting penalties, i.e., +18.
Since it's a full attack, he has the option to decide to forgo the rest of his attacks, treat his first attack as though it were a standard action, and gain a move action like normal.
If he'd done this from the getgo, that attack would've been at +15.
Does it get retroactively bumped down or does the monk get to cheat the single-attack BAB restriction?
BTW, I'm definitely in the camp of "give them a full BAB already", although I would rather they fix the more glaring problem of the alignment restriction first.
Tectorman wrote:
Does it get retroactively bumped down or does the monk get to cheat the single-attack BAB restriction?
Neither. Once the monk declares that he is using flurry of blows, then that is what he's doing for the round. He can't change it in the middle of resolving his actions anymore than a wizard can relocate his fireball in the middle of rolling saving throws. If he ends up not using all his attacks, then he loses them.
Darkwing Duck wrote: Once the monk declares that he is using flurry of blows, then that is what he's doing for the round. The flurry of blow is a full attack, and the full attack action allows the character to change his action after the first attack.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Actually, flurry of blows is called out as a full-attack action, not a full-round action. Which means that it falls under the rule that allows a character to trade his extra attacks for a movement.
This does not complicate the attack routine either, as you are still performing a full-attack, and not a standard action. Thus you can make the first attack at flurry BAB, then decide to break off and move instead of taking the rest of your attacks. No need to retroactively change the attack bonus at all.
Remember, it's not 'I change my full-round action into a standard and a move', it is 'my full-round action gives me the option of all my attacks or one attack and one move'.
Edit: Wordiness got me ninja'd for once.
That is a fascinating hole in the rules. So really a Monk is only not full BAB when he is approaching a target or on an AoO. He can even make a full BAB single strike and break off.
Yep. Precisely why I toss the clunky mechanic and give them full BAB.
Edit: Made a thread about it.
Ganymede425 wrote: After all, Daniel Laruso certainly didn't score his final point in the All Valley Tournament with a well placed grapple.
But clearly he did not move, so it was really just the first attack of a flurry.
Actually, I think it seemed more like an attack of opportunity, so we can deduce that the Crane Technique mechanically extends reach to 10 ft, perhaps even giving a precise strike-like bonus (if do right, no can defense).
Having run a monk to level 17, I can say that the change to my monk's power level if he had full BAB (pretty negligible) vs. the hassle it was to keep track of standard attacks and flurry puts me firmly into the monk full BAB camp.
I believe that game mechanics that make the game more difficult without adding much to the overall play experience should be undesired by game designers.
To fix the gameplay hassle, give the monk full BAB. However, the monk only qualifies for feats as though he had 3/4 BAB. Still a hassle, but only a hassle at character creation/leveling.
Alternatively, you could simply throw money at the situation. Monk stays as written, but you create a feat or item that grants a circumstance bonus to Attacks of Opportunity or anytime the character is limited to a single attack. I'm guessing there has to already be a similar mechanic for all this.
My main problem with playing a pathfinder monk (at least, from the CRB - haven't really played any archetypes, yet), is just how darn situational they are.
I'm not certain I agree with monks being able to interrupt a flurry and getting to move on with their move action. Otherwise, why not just interrupt it anytime you want to clock someone with a free bonus to your attack roll and take your move action, anyways?
Takamonk wrote: I'm not certain I agree with monks being able to interrupt a flurry and getting to move on with their move action. Otherwise, why not just interrupt it anytime you want to clock someone with a free bonus to your attack roll and take your move action, anyways? Because you're likely to rack up a lot of AoOs from the guy you just hit that way?
TOZ wrote: Takamonk wrote: I'm not certain I agree with monks being able to interrupt a flurry and getting to move on with their move action. Otherwise, why not just interrupt it anytime you want to clock someone with a free bonus to your attack roll and take your move action, anyways? Because you're likely to rack up a lot of AoOs from the guy you just hit that way? And because a Full Attack is inherently better than a single normal attack?
TOZ wrote: Because you're likely to rack up a lot of AoOs from the guy you just hit that way? Stunning fist. Death. Deliver a spell or some other effect through an attack that incapacitates the opponent some other way.
Likewise, there could be other feats at play (not that they are in front of me at the moment), but power attack and feats that allow you to ignore the penalty to power attack on the first roll.
Takamonk wrote: Stunning fist. Death. Deliver a spell or some other effect through an attack that incapacitates the opponent some other way. Well, that certainly puts a limit on your 'anytime you want' idea now doesn't it? When you're out of Stunning Fist uses, or the bad guy isn't going down in one hit, and I'm pretty certain monks don't get spells in Pathfinder. ;)
As to power attack and furious focus, why is it okay for other classes to be able to use them on the first attack and then cancel into a move action, but you object to the monk doing the same?
TOZ wrote: Takamonk wrote: Stunning fist. Death. Deliver a spell or some other effect through an attack that incapacitates the opponent some other way. Well, that certainly puts a limit on your 'anytime you want' idea now doesn't it? When you're out of Stunning Fist uses, or the bad guy isn't going down in one hit, and I'm pretty certain monks don't get spells in Pathfinder. ;)
As to power attack and furious focus, why is it okay for other classes to be able to use them on the first attack and then cancel into a move action, but you object to the monk doing the same? According to d20pfsrd.com, Furious Focus doesn't require the Full Attack Action.
I removed some posts. Let's debate like adults please. Also, flag it and move on.
|
