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At 3rd level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with astounding speed. It takes an alchemist half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items, and he can apply poison to a weapon as a move action.
So. Are they alchemical or not?
Please FAQ, I guess.
I have a feeling this is going to be a discussion involving semantics of various words.
Mutagen (Su)
Nope they are class abilities.
Mutagen (Su)Nope they are class abilities.
So if it would've have done so, it would've explicitly said so?
That's my thought on it at least.
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My thinking is that "create alchemical items" involves a Craft: Alchemy check, which Mutagen does not. By that rationale, extracts prep time would be quicker, too, wouldn't it?
Maybe it could be worded better, might be worth errata. Certainly a "full-round action" seems like way too short of a time to whip up a Mutagen, no matter the level.
EDIT: In fact it kind of says it later in an extension of the same class feature.
Instant Alchemy: At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation.
Mutagens require no Craft: Alchemy check, therefore are not subject to instant alchemy. From that I infer that swift alchemy similarly exempts mutagens.
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FAQ'd, dude.
Any other opinions?
I think the same question would pertain to extracts. 1 min normally to create with swift alchemy 30 sec.
I think these should be affected by swift alchemy. The first entry under the alchemist is "Alchemy" which lists extracts, mutagens, and bombs. I know what SKR said hurts my case (but not that much, he said its not a direct upgrade like sneak attack +1d6), but clearly there was a connection between alchemy, swift alchemy, and instant alchemy in the design of the class.
This harkens back to the discussions we had on the forums after the APG came out.
Back then the question was whether the Alchemist gets the class level bonus to Craft(Alchemy) checks from the 'Alchemy' class feature and the speed bonuses from the 'Swift Alchemy' and 'Instant Alchemy' class features when crafting poisons.
It boiled down to the question of what exactly 'alchemical items' were (and if they included poisons).
The issue was addressed with a FAQ entry:
http://paizo.com/products/btpy8fo1/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Advanced -Players-Guide#v5748eaic9ndc
The result was that that poisons generally are not 'alchemical items', but were considered to be so for the purpose of the Alchemist's class features.
The answer to what 'alchemical items' are, is answered by the Core Rulebook's index. It directly states that 'alchemical items' are everything in the "Special Substances and Items" subsection of the "Goods and Services" section of the "Equipment" chapter.
So in conclusion, extracts and mutagens might be alchemical, but they are not 'alchemical items'.
Instant Alchemy: At 18th level, an alchemist can create alchemical items with almost supernatural speed. He can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if he succeeds at the Craft (alchemy) check and has the appropriate resources at hand to fund the creation.
Wow, that is a terrible, terrible ability. It's been at least 10 levels since anybody even used an alchemical item (except possibly poisons).
Hmm, wondering bout the same.
Not sure if 30 min crafting on mutagen is game breaking either.
What makes me wonder is, if they added a text (craft alchemy check) on instant, to lock mutagen out of it. Why didn't they just copy paste that into Swift Alchemy. Daft overlook, or just intended to let swift alchemy work with mutagens?
From another viewpoint, Mutagens are under the Alchemy class feature, as well as giving an Alchemical Bonus to stats, which by common sense, makes it an alchemical item. Reason you won't find it under Alchemical Items sections, is same as Ninja's smoke bombs, it's an unique class feature.
Would you allow it in your game?
Allow it in my game? Meh probably if a player made a thing of it. It's not that huge.
From a rules stand point (utterly RAW here) it's a no go though.
After all Alchemical items aren't magical -- they work in an anti-magic field. The alchemist's "Alchemy(SU)" however doesn't. It also doesn't work for everyone (unlike an alchemical item).
Allow it in my game? Meh probably if a player made a thing of it. It's not that huge.
From a rules stand point (utterly RAW here) it's a no go though.
After all Alchemical items aren't magical -- they work in an anti-magic field. The alchemist's "Alchemy(SU)" however doesn't. It also doesn't work for everyone (unlike an alchemical item).
The Su was a nice noticed, I managed to miss that.
But mutagen still gives an Alchemical Bonus. And while other's can't benefit from it, they can drink it and get sick. Unless it's another Alchemist, which can benefit from a stolen or given Mutagen.
What throws me off is this:
Mutagen is an SU ability that gives Alchemical Bonus to stats.
BUT
Bonus (alchemical)
An alchemical bonus is granted by the use of a non-magical, alchemical substance such as antitoxin.
Specific overrides General.
Dodge bonuses stack, but if you have two haste spells cast on you then you don't get double the dodge bonus.
Bonus (alchemical)
An alchemical bonus is granted by the use of a non-magical, alchemical substance such as antitoxin.
I don't really see what the fact that different sources can grant an alchemical bonus has to do with the definition of what an "alchemical item" is.
'Alchemy', 'Swift Alchemy' and 'Instant Alchemy' all only work for "alchemical items".
The Core Rulebook's index clearly defines "alchemical items" as all the items in the "Special Substances and Items" section.
Thus, that's the only items these class features apply to (plus poisons, as the FAQ clarified).
Well, as the FAQ shows, there are already exceptions to what an alchemical item is.
And to be honest, I wouldn't consider the index to be the end-all-be-all when it comes to rules. It's the same thing with "table vs ability". You ignore the table, in this case the index, for what the ability says. Nothing else in the CRB defines what an alchemical item is.
The mechanical trap section is nothing conclusive.
Instant Alchemy specifically refers to items made with Craft(Alchemy) checks. It also loosely links "alchemical item" to an item made with a Craft(alchemy) check.
But at the same time, Swift Alchemy specifically does not mention a Craft check.
"Alchemical item" is a standard term in the Pathfinder rule set.
All the 3 three class features explicitly mention it.
The index explicitly mentions it and refers to a specific section.
That's pretty much as clear as it gets.
And the index is not a table. It is more like a glossary and thus the very place to go for definitions. Especially if a term isn't defined anywhere else in the rule book.
Some elixirs require craft alchemy, would those, with craft wondrous item, qualify for this ability?
Elixirs are not "alchemical items". They are "wondrous (magic) items".
So, no.
Interesting. This feat differentiates between mundane and non-mundane alchemical items.
What alchemical items are not mundane? That is to say, which ones are magical?
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As cheapy pointed out, there's a feat that specifies mundane alchemical items, if there's just mundane ones, why exactly specify it?
Could you point out the Alchemical Items index or what it was, I can't seem to find it. Below are a few texts that bug me, and in your last posts, you effectively told to ignore them.
Bombs:
- the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab.
Alchemy Lab:
This lab is used for making [b]alchemical items[b].
Mutagen:
granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability score
Bonus (Alchemical):
An alchemical bonus is granted by the use of a non-magical, alchemical substance such as antitoxin.
Colour me blue, but bombs really suggest that the alchemy skills are alchemical items. Mutagen is a newer text than alchemical bonus, so logically it's a more precise one. Unless the alchemical bonus line is correct, but being non-magical, it means the mutagen becomes an EX ability and not SU.
From a balance point of view, I hope mutagen doesn't work.
From a verisimilitude point of view, I think it does work. Alchemy is alchemy.
I'd personally make an exemption for the mutagen / cognatagen, but would be fine with this ability making, for example, potions brew faster, work with elixers, etc.
Bestiary 2 came out after the APG, which is where that feat came from.
Amusingly, the feat should work when making the body. Not when making it a golem, of course, but going from the text about the body, yep.
An alchemical golem’s body is made of alchemical gear weighing 1,000 pounds and worth a total of 3,000 gp.
As cheapy pointed out, there's a feat that specifies mundane alchemical items, if there's just mundane ones, why exactly specify it?
Could you point out the Alchemical Items index or what it was, I can't seem to find it. Below are a few texts that bug me, and in your last posts, you effectively told to ignore them.
Bombs:
- the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab.Alchemy Lab:
This lab is used for making alchemical items.Mutagen:
granting him a +2 natural armor bonus and a +4 alchemical bonus to the selected ability scoreBonus (Alchemical):
An alchemical bonus is granted by the use of a non-magical, alchemical substance such as antitoxin.Colour me blue, but bombs really suggest that the alchemy skills are alchemical items. Mutagen is a newer text than alchemical bonus, so logically it's a more precise one. Unless the alchemical bonus line is correct, but being non-magical, it means the mutagen becomes an EX ability and not SU.
As you said there are only mundane "alchemical items" (with "mundane gear" being defined on page 401 of the CRB).
In fact, in the same feat, the actual description of how the feat works just says "alchemical items".The first sentence with the "mundane" word is just a fluff sentence.
The index is at the end of the CRB.
Just because a bomb can be created with materials from the alchemy lab does not make it an "alchemical item" rules-wise. This is as if you said that because magic weapons use the same base materials as normal weapons, that makes the normal ones magical as well.
The bomb rule IN NO WAY suggests it is an "alchemical item".
This is whole thing an non-issue. "Alchemical items" are clearly defined in the index.
In fact, the "mundane gear" section clearly defines that any mundane items (and thus also "alchemical items") are non-magical, since they are listed under "non-magical treasures" (pages 400-401).
Thus it is impossible for extracts, mutagens, elixirs and potions to be affected by these class features.
From a verisimilitude point of view, I think it does work. Alchemy is alchemy.
This is incorrect. Alchemy is NOT alchemy.
There is normal ("mundane alchemy") and there is the alchemist's alchemy that is magical in nature.
First sentence in the 'Alchemy' class feature:
"Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potionlike extracts in which they can store spell effects."
It's the same logic that decides a spider is magic since you have to swallow a spider in order to cast spider climb.
Until the faq, you couldn't find poison in a hoard. Now you can.
Funny how things can change.
Let's scrap the rest.
Mutagen is Su ability, and gives alchemical bonus.
Alchemical bonus states that it's received from a non-magical alchemist items.
Is one text wrong?
Is one ignoring another?
Is Mutagen to follow the older rule, changing from Su to Ex(as alchemical bonus is from nonmagical only), like poisons that only recently became alchemical items with the non-magical hoard?
Until the faq, you couldn't find poison in a hoard. Now you can.
Funny how things can change.Let's scrap the rest.
Mutagen is Su ability, and gives alchemical bonus.
Alchemical bonus states that it's received from a non-magical alchemist items.Is one text wrong?
Is one ignoring another?
Is Mutagen to follow the older rule, changing from Su to Ex(as alchemical bonus is from nonmagical only), like poisons that only recently became alchemical items with the non-magical hoard?
First of all, where did you get the strange idea that only non-magical alchemical items give alchemical bonuses?????
That sentence you keep quoting doesn't exist in any rule book.Second, Mutagen is a supernatural ability and thus magical in nature. Period.
And poisons are NOT alchemical items, they are ONLY considered as such for the 'Alchemy' class feature of the alchemist. That's it.
Alch, you can't use the "Fluff should be ignored" reasoning, then use fluff to support your view.
Once the index for the CRB makes it into the system reference document (or Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document, if you want to be specific), then you can start using that as the justification for a view. Until then...if your argument relies on the index for a definitive answer, you should really reconsider the argument.
Abe's argument of it being Su was good enough to convince me of how I'd rule it.
But there are already exceptions to what "counts as an alchemical item for class abilities", and it's quite logical that an item that is introduced under "alchemy", gives "alchemical" bonuses, and is for a class named "alchemist" would...be an alchemical item! And that's why I hope people would hit the FAQ button on the first post.
Alch, you can't use the "Fluff should be ignored" reasoning, then use fluff to support your view.
I am not saying anything should be ignored. I just said that in the very same feat description they say "alchemical items" 2 sentences later to describe the same thing. Thus "mundane alchemical items" is equivalent to "alchemical items", since both refer to the same items.
Furthermore, all "alchemical items" ARE mundane as specified by the "mundane gear" entry.Once the index for the CRB makes it into the system reference document (or Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document, if you want to be specific), then you can start using that as the justification for a view. Until then...if your argument relies on the index for a definitive answer, you should really reconsider the argument.
Say what?
The CRB is THE definitive source. Everything else is just an incomplete copy.But there are already exceptions to what "counts as an alchemical item for class abilities", and it's quite logical that an item that is introduced under "alchemy", gives "alchemical" bonuses, and is for a class named "alchemist" would...be an alchemical item! And that's why I hope people would hit the FAQ button on the first post.
As I said before, "alchemical items" are clearly defined. And the 'Alchemy' class feature explicitly differentiates between the magical alchemy of the alchemist's class features and mundane "alchemical items".
The reason they had to clarify the question about poison, was because poison is non-magical and doesn't belong to any of the categories in the Equipment chapter. This meant there was ambiguity.
In the case of extracts and mutagens there is no ambiguity.
First of all, where did you get the strange idea that only non-magical alchemical items give alchemical bonuses?????
That sentence you keep quoting doesn't exist in any rule book.And poisons are NOT alchemical items, they are ONLY considered as such for the 'Alchemy' class feature of the alchemist. That's it.
I was under the impression that PFSRD was a valid source for rules?
If not, the I fear for my life, because under the bonuses mentioned under Additional Rules chapter in the core book, Alchemical Bonus was not mentioned. Maybe I can't find it...
Here's the alchemical bonus at pfsrd, if it's not valid reference point, then I'm sorry, I had the impression it was a recognized place one could link to:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus-Alchemical -
As for poisons, they apply to the Master Alchemist Feat anyone can take, so no, it's not Alchemist specific. But if poisons are an exception to the alchemist items, why is it too farfetched for the Mutagen to be?
As for the hoard reference. It's possible that they put alchemical items there because, oh I dunno, there was no other alchemical class features at the time of printing.
Edit:
I'd just like to note that while in Core you can find Alchemical Items on page 160-161, nowhere does it say in that section that they are mundane only, just that there wasn't any magical alchemist items there, neither were poisons, which later were added, so that section isn't written in stone.
Secondly, the hoard guidelines is not a well-thought reference point. It mentions jewelery and artwork. I dunno bout you, but Amulet of the Planes comes to mind, it's magical jewelery. There's plenty of cursed and magical artwork out there as well.
No, the PRD is the definitive source.
My first edition CRB says a lot of things that are not true anymore.
To be honest, I am flabbergasted that someone would argue that the printed version trumps the REFERENCE DOCUMENT. The very document that you reference against to see what the rules are. I even think that the CRB specifically says "go to the PRD to see the most up to date rules. "
D20pfsrd.com is fan made, and the text you quoted is not in the PRD. Common mistake.
My bad then. Which is a shame, cuz I can't find much on PRD.
If I search Alchemy, bonus alchemical, or alchemic items, it all brings me to the alchemist class.
Any chance you could point me to the proper Bonus Alchemical?
Or any other source than Creating Hoard mentioning alchemical items as mundane only?
No, the PRD is the definitive source.
My first edition CRB says a lot of things that are not true anymore.
To be honest, I am flabbergasted that someone would argue that the printed version trumps the REFERENCE DOCUMENT. The very document that you reference against to see what the rules are. I even think that the CRB specifically says "go to the PRD to see the most up to date rules. "
Sorry to break this to you, but the CRB + Errata is the definitive source. No question about it.
First, the "reference" in PRD means that it is a resource players can refer to and not that it is THE reference.
Second, it doesn't say ANYWHERE in the CRB that you should go to the PRD for the most up to date rules.
And most importantly:
Third, this is what it say in the introduction to the PRD:
"This compendium is NOT the official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game! Players interested in a user-friendly introduction to the Pathfinder system will want to purchase the complete Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, which comes complete with more than 350 monsters to menace your player characters."
And:
"The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 11/30/11."
Which is to say, the books get updated first and then the PRD (11/22/2011 vs 11/30/2011). So, not only does the CRB contain more, it also gets updated first.
No, the PRD is the definitive source.
My first edition CRB says a lot of things that are not true anymore.
To be honest, I am flabbergasted that someone would argue that the printed version trumps the REFERENCE DOCUMENT. The very document that you reference against to see what the rules are. I even think that the CRB specifically says "go to the PRD to see the most up to date rules. "
Sorry to break this to you, but the CRB + Errata is the definitive source. No question about it.
First, the "reference" in PRD means that it is a resource players can refer to and not that it is THE reference.
Second, it doesn't say ANYWHERE in the CRB that you should go to the PRD for the most up to date rules.
And most importantly:
Third, this is what it say in the introduction to the PRD:
"This compendium is NOT the official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game! Players interested in a user-friendly introduction to the Pathfinder system will want to purchase the complete Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, which comes complete with more than 350 monsters to menace your player characters."
A short line like cheapy's would suffice, I said I got it, and hammering it in when I admitted fault is uncalled for.
As for PRD intro, it says it's not the game, which is a different thing from a reference document, no?
Further down it specifies it holds all new official content.
"The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 11/30/11.
11/30/11 Added errata for the 5th printing of the Core Rulebook and corrected minor formatting errors and links."
A short line like cheapy's would suffice, I said I got it, and hammering it in when I admitted fault is uncalled for.No, the PRD is the definitive source.
My first edition CRB says a lot of things that are not true anymore.
To be honest, I am flabbergasted that someone would argue that the printed version trumps the REFERENCE DOCUMENT. The very document that you reference against to see what the rules are. I even think that the CRB specifically says "go to the PRD to see the most up to date rules. "
Sorry to break this to you, but the CRB + Errata is the definitive source. No question about it.
First, the "reference" in PRD means that it is a resource players can refer to and not that it is THE reference.
Second, it doesn't say ANYWHERE in the CRB that you should go to the PRD for the most up to date rules.
And most importantly:
Third, this is what it say in the introduction to the PRD:
"This compendium is NOT the official Pathfinder Roleplaying Game! Players interested in a user-friendly introduction to the Pathfinder system will want to purchase the complete Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, which comes complete with more than 350 monsters to menace your player characters."
This is directed at Cheapy, not at you.
I am explaining to him that the Core Rulebook (CRB) is the definite source and not the Pathfinder Reference Document (PRD).
This isn't about the SRD, which as Cheapy correctly noted, is fan made and in no way official.
As for PRD intro, it says it's not the game, which is a different thing from a reference document, no?
Further down it specifies it holds all new official content.
"The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document contains all errata to the Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Advanced Player's Guide as of 11/30/11.
11/30/11 Added errata for the 5th printing of the Core Rulebook and corrected minor formatting errors and links."
That's right and I added that too.
It means the PRD only contains what the CRB contains and that it is even updated at a later date, since the errata for the 5th printing was available on 11/22/2011. That's 8 days earlier than the PRD update.So in conclusion, THE definitive source is the CRB. It contains more than the PRD AND is updated earlier.
Didn't mean to come off as offensive. Just a long day.
Any chance you could point me to any text on alchemical bonus or other that mentiones alchemical items as mundane only, I'm sorry, but I really don't think a guideline to making npc treasure trumphs alchemical bonus = alchemical item, and we'll just have to disagree on that, but I'd like to have all the text handy when I present this to some of my buddies.
Edit: But even with 8 day delay, isn't it precise as the current go-to place? I can't afford buying a new CRB each time they deem a change is needed, so it's really the only places I can go.
And now, it seems there's been a month of break, and I still can't find alchemical bonus anywhere but under special substances, which is the same as mutagen gives.
Didn't mean to come off as offensive. Just a long day.
Any chance you could point me to any text on alchemical bonus or other that mentiones alchemical items as mundane only, I'm sorry, but I really don't think a guideline to making npc treasure trumphs alchemical bonus = alchemical item, and we'll just have to disagree on that, but I'd like to have all the text handy when I present this to some of my buddies.
That's what I'm trying to explain all the time.
There is NO text/rule that says "alchemical bonus" = only "alchemical items".What the SRD says on that subject is just plain wrong.
Also, the index of the CRB says that "alchemical items" are everything in the "Special Substances and Items" section and nothing else.
Didn't mean to come off as offensive. Just a long day.
Any chance you could point me to any text on alchemical bonus or other that mentiones alchemical items as mundane only, I'm sorry, but I really don't think a guideline to making npc treasure trumphs alchemical bonus = alchemical item, and we'll just have to disagree on that, but I'd like to have all the text handy when I present this to some of my buddies.
That's what I'm trying to explain all the time.
There is NO text/rule that says "alchemical bonus" = only "alchemical items".What the SRD says on that subject is just plain wrong.
Kay, let's skip and forget SRD, it was wrong of me to link that text, but it was the only I found.
Where other than Hoard guidelines can I find text stating that alchemical items are mundane only?
Didn't mean to come off as offensive. Just a long day.
Any chance you could point me to any text on alchemical bonus or other that mentiones alchemical items as mundane only, I'm sorry, but I really don't think a guideline to making npc treasure trumphs alchemical bonus = alchemical item, and we'll just have to disagree on that, but I'd like to have all the text handy when I present this to some of my buddies.
That's what I'm trying to explain all the time.
There is NO text/rule that says "alchemical bonus" = only "alchemical items".What the SRD says on that subject is just plain wrong.
Kay, let's skip and forget SRD, it was wrong of me to link that text, but it was the only I found.
Where other than Hoard guidelines can I find text stating that alchemical items are mundane only?
Pages 400-401. But as I said before, the index entry is all you need. It's crystal clear.
400-401 mentions that you can find alchemical items among mundane gear, nothing about them being exclusive to mundane type.
Now remember, poisons were edited later in as alchemical items, as per Master Alchemist feat, so that's still not set in stone.
What's crystal clear is that you can find an alchemical item in a bunch of mundane gear.
What's not crystal clear, is where you can find a line saying "alchemical items are mundane only" or any variant of such text.
There's two things in common for all alchemical items, poisons included.
It either requires a Craft (alchemy) check. Or it gives Bonus (alchemy).
Alchemical Grease requires Craft(alchemy) and gives Alchemical Bonus = Alchemical Item.
Poison requires Craft (alchemy) but gives no Bonus (alchemy) = Alchemical Item.
Potion can be made with Craft(alchemy) but gives no Bonus = ?
Mutagen gives Bonus (alchemy) but requires no Craft (Alchemy) = ?
Mind you, Master Alchemist feat specifies it works only with mundane alchemical items. Instant alchemy specifies it works only with a craft check. If they have the proper wording for both, why does Swift Alchemy not use any of existing text?
Also, Instant Alchemy requires only a Craft(alchemy) check to work with an item, so it works with Brew Potion, meaning you can use Craft (alchemy) as a full-round action. Unlike Master Alchemist Feat, it does not specify to work only on mundane alchemical items.
So if I can make a magical Potion using a text specifying craft check.
And make multiple doses with a Feat that specifies Mundane Alchemical Items. Why not something that gives Alchemical bonus, using Swift Alchemy having neither craft, nor mundane requirements.
Currently I don't consider "You can find alchemical items as part of mundane gear." to trump the fact that the only sources of Alchemical Bonuses in CRB are Alchemical Items only, meaning that Potions made by Craft(alchemy) are infact magical alchemical items, same as mutagen which can be also be shared via an archetype or otherwise make a person sick.
/rant over.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree and I'll have to wait for an FAQ.
Wow! I am utterly stunned... You actually manage to get every single point in your "rant" wrong.
And that after I explained everything to you in detail, several times.
As it is, you haven't understood how the Alchemist class, crafting, creating magic items and the feats you quoted work.
If you carefully read the rules, you will see that:
- All "alchemical items" are "nonmagical" and thus "mundane".
- Poisons are NOT "alchemical items".
- "Alchemical items" are NOT the only ones to give "alchemical bonuses" and are NOT the only ones that require the 'Craft(alchemy)' skill.
- The 'Bomb', 'Extract' and 'Mutagen' class features don't have ANYTHING to do with "alchemical items".
- 'Swift Alchemy' and 'Instant Alchemy' ONLY work with "alchemical items" and poisons.
- Potions are NOT "alchemical items".
I will not reference anything here, since it has already been done in this thread and others (not to mention that everything is clearly described in the rulebooks).
Please stay civil. There are already exceptions toward what counts as "alchemical items", so there's reason to think there could be more. This is a question about RAI.
I have a feeling this is going to be a discussion involving semantics of various words.
*rant*
Taking to the last line of my post, you could just have agreed to disagree rather than follow up on stuff you don't agree on. I think two of us talking is over now.
Please stay civil. There are already exceptions toward what counts as "alchemical items", so there's reason to think there could be more. This is a question about RAI.
I can't seem to find the stuff I'm looking for in CRB. Any chance you could point me to a section describing alchemical items or alchemical bonuses except the Special Substances section?
Please stay civil. There are already exceptions toward what counts as "alchemical items", so there's reason to think there could be more. This is a question about RAI.
How am I not being civil?
Also, there is exactly ONE exception towards what counts as "alchemical items" and it is limited to 3 class features of the Alchemist class. It was clearly stated in the FAQ for the APG. At the same time the FAQ entry clearly states that for everything else than this exception (hence the name) poisons and "alchemical items" are not the same.
If there had been other exceptions (especially if they also concerned the Alchemist) they would have been addressed at the same time. Not to mention that all that was more than a year ago.
Taking to the last line of my post, you could just have agreed to disagree rather than follow up on stuff you don't agree on. I think two of us talking is over now.
This isn't about me agreeing or not. It's about the RAW. And all the points you made in your post directly contradict the RAW. This isn't about interpretation or semantics.
The mechanical traps section mentions an incomplete list of alchemical items. Page 419 of the 5th Printing, under Miscellaneous Trap Features.
Page 401 under the header Building a Treasure Hoard mentions this:
There are many valuable
items of mundane or alchemical nature detailed in
Chapter 6 that can be utilized as treasure. Most of the
alchemical items are portable and valuable, but other
objects like locks, holy symbols, spyglasses, fine wine,
or fine clothing work well as interesting bits of treasure.
Trade goods can even serve as treasure—10 pounds of
saffron, for example, is worth 150 gp.
Those are the primary non-fluff / non-supportive material due to the nature of a book that exists about these items in the CRB.
The CRB doesn't generally give definitions of a what a bonus type represents. The name is enough. The names can be anything really, and as long as you have two bonuses of the same type (that is, with the same type), they will not stack unless specifically called out as stacking, as dodge bonuses are.
The APG's "Navigating this book" section has the following to say:
This chapter
also includes a large assortment of new alchemical items,
such as liquid ice and weapon blanche.
An alchemist with an alchemist’s kit
is assumed to have all the material components needed
for his extracts, mutagens, and bombs, except for those
components that have a specific cost. An alchemist’s kit
provides no bonuses on Craft (alchemy) checks.