Are mutagens alchemical? Are they affected by Swift Alchemy?


Rules Questions

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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I haven't removed anything, but please do stay civil. Being condescending is not being civil.


Cheapy wrote:
Those are the primary non-fluff / non-supportive material due to the nature of a book that exists about these items in the CRB.

There also is the Index entry which directly links "alchemical items" to the "Special Substances and Items" subsection and thus provides a direct definition for what "alchemical items" are.

And on page 400:

"Nonmagical Treasures: This expansive category includes
jewelry, fine clothing, trade goods, alchemical items,
masterwork objects, and more."


Cheapy wrote:

The mechanical traps section mentions an incomplete list of alchemical items. Page 419 of the 5th Printing, under Miscellaneous Trap Features.

Page 401 under the header Building a Treasure Hoard mentions this:

Mundane Gear (up to 1,000 gp): wrote:

There are many valuable

items of mundane or alchemical nature detailed in
Chapter 6 that can be utilized as treasure. Most of the
alchemical items are portable and valuable, but other
objects like locks, holy symbols, spyglasses, fine wine,
or fine clothing work well as interesting bits of treasure.
Trade goods can even serve as treasure—10 pounds of
saffron, for example, is worth 150 gp.

Those are the primary non-fluff / non-supportive material due to the nature of a book that exists about these items in the CRB.

Note that while the Mundane gear refer to Alchemical Items, which in the index refer to Special Substances and Items(p160), the Everburning Torch and Holy Water, both items in same category as alchemical items, are clearly magical in nature (continual flames and bless) so one can get a magical item while using the Mundane Gear guide.


Yes, and their descriptions clearly state that they are magical and thus not "alchemical items". It is also because of these items that the category is called "Special Substances and Items" and not "alchemical items".
However, this doesn't change the fact that all the "alchemical items" in the game are listed in the "Special Substances and Items" subsection and that this is the ONLY section where they are listed. This also goes for all the other rulebooks, "alchemical items" are always listed in the "Special Substances and Items" subsection (Advanced Players Guide, Adventurer's Armory).

And the "Nonmagical Treasure" and "Mundane Gear" categories clearly only say "alchemical items" and NOT "Special Substances and Items". So holy water and everburning torches are not "Mundane Gear" and not "Nonmagical Treasure".

Grand Lodge

If an example of an item that was alchemical, and magical, was brought forth, would you consider changing your opinion? I am not state I agree, or disagree, only that an example may exist. Has anyone such example?


Mutagens are items that are alchemical and magical :-P

The quibble is over "alchemical items".


There are plenty of items that are alchemical and magical: The Alchemist's extracts, mutagens and bombs as well as all magical items of the 'Potions' type.
But BECAUSE they are alchemical and magical they are not "alchemical items".

This is also clearly explained in the Alchemist's 'Alchemy' class feature:

Quote:
Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects.

As you can see "mundane" is the official term for "nonmagical" (the rules also use this term for "mundane disguises" and "mundane ink" in order to differentiate them from their magical counterparts). And the 'Alchemy' class feature explicitly differentiates the two types of items in the case of alchemy.

"Alchemical item" is the official term for the class of items that are alchemical and nonmagical.

Grand Lodge

Are there examples of items described as an "Alchemical item" that are also magical?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are there examples of items described as an "Alchemical item" that are also magical?

There is no examples of what alchemical items are. Just an index pointing to page 160, which includes a magical torch.

But apparently you follow the index to the written page and pick what's what.

Quote:
Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects.

It actually says 'Mundane alchemical substances'. Not Alchemical Items. Those are two different things, as you have argued.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Are there examples of items described as an "Alchemical item" that are also magical?

No, and there can't be, because alchemical items are defined as "nonmagical".

Tyki11 wrote:
But apparently you follow the index to the written page and pick what's what.

One doesn't just pick what's what. One reads the description. If it mentions something magical, then it isn't an "alchemical item". That's it.

Tyki11 wrote:
It actually says 'Mundane alchemical substances'. Not Alchemical Items. Those are two different things, as you have argued.

"Mundane alchemical [whatever]" is equivalent to "alchemical item".

Why? Because "mundane" means "nonmagical". Thus if a term includes the two defining properties of an "alchemical item" (nonmagical and alchemical) it is equivalent.

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