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My argument was that the 'touch AC' aspect of the new weapon creates a new niche for soldiers, and this niche allows mundane soldiers to easily target heavily armoured threats in a way that only magic users could do before.
This is the very reason why I do not like the idea of having Gunslingers around (or only in a very rare, very specific context).
To me, the Med-Fan RPG is based on a clear dichotomy : people anchored in the material world (ie, non-casters) who get by their skill and physical and/or social abilities. These people do not get to ignore the laws of nature such as "Armor stops attacks".
Because, for this, for anything that ignores the laws of nature and physics, there is magic, which is the other side of the equation. Magic is what allows you to acquire supernatural power at a price (usually that of your martial and social abilities). And I put ki-using Monks here too.
A non-caster who can ignore the basic rules of the world without any supernatural aid just ruins the Med-Fan feeling for me.
I can see the discussion that happens afterwards:
Commanding Officer: What news of Sir Outdatus's campaign?
Messenger: Sir Outdatus fell in battle, melord. He was slain on a charge against the scouts palisades.
CO: Preposterous! Sir Outdatus was clad in Azlanti steel and bore Heartstone, the shield of his forefathers. What rival knight or cowardly wizard claimed him?
M: 'Twas a baseborn recruit that did the deed. The nameless private shot Sir Outdatus in the neck with one of those new pipe-rifles as he lead the charge. Left a hole clean through the steel.
CO: Impossible! You lie sir! Not Sir Outdatus, who emerged from the melee of orc hill without even a scratch when he fought 20 warrior orcs singlehandedly!
M: It seems that even the best armour cannot protect an officer from these devices. Melord would do well to learn from Sir Outdatus's death.
And this is a perfect illustration of why Gunslingers should never ever become common in Golarion. Because if guns become commonplace, they will make the Medieval part of Med-Fan obsolete, just as they did in the real world. And this kind of sweeping change in the setting is not something to look forward to : the status quo is the objective here.
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But Golarion was never Medieval Fantasy, Golarion is, technologically and socially wise, more like Reneissance Fantasy, and is so vast and diverse to booth, that you can find pretty much everything from Aztech jungles to Pirate islands to large metropolis to Eastern empires to barbaric wastelands to even freaking revolutionary USA. Everything has their place there, and I don't see many people complaining that having all this things "disrupt my idea of Medieval Fantasy". I can see that you may find guns out of place IN YOUR OWN SETTING, but Golarion is not your setting, is a fantasy kitchensink where nothing is too out of place to not have its niche. Guns can, and probably will, become commonplace in the future of Golarion, followed by technological advancements of similar kind.
If something is complicated and works wonders, why does it have to be magical? Why can't it be pure engineering? Golarion is full of people that can perform a similar task, and apply it to warfare, trade, and so forth... A setting that is stuck in the same technological and social state forever and ever is something even more absurd that dragons and fairies. Especially if there's so much going on like there is in Golarion: what are the chances that a technological (or magical, for that matter) advancement of any kind won't become common in a very short time?
This is why I find all the complaining about Gunslingers quite baffling, especially when somebody says that "guns that target touch AC break suspension of disbelief" in a setting where CREATING ENDLESS WATER FROM NOTHING (not to mention all the 0° level spells) is something even the crappiest caster can pull off, and nobody ever mentions the enormous implications that this would have in a believable setting.
Why the double standard?
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But Golarion was never Medieval Fantasy, Golarion is, technologically and socially wise, more like Reneissance Fantasy, and is so vast and diverse to booth, that you can find pretty much everything from Aztech jungles to Pirate islands to large metropolis to Eastern empires to barbaric wastelands to even freaking revolutionary USA. Everything has their place there, and I don't see many people complaining that having all this things "disrupt my idea of Medieval Fantasy". I can see that you may find guns out of place IN YOUR OWN SETTING, but Golarion is not your setting, is a fantasy kitchensink where nothing is too out of place to not have its niche. Guns can, and probably will, become commonplace in the future of Golarion, followed by technological advancements of similar kind.
If something is complicated and works wonders, why does it have to be magical? Why can't it be pure engineering? Golarion is full of people that can perform a similar task, and apply it to warfare, trade, and so forth... A setting that is stuck in the same technological and social state forever and ever is something even more absurd that dragons and fairies. Especially if there's so much going on like there is in Golarion: what are the chances that a technological (or magical, for that matter) advancement of any kind won't become common in a very short time?
It is far easier for Paizo to keep the Golarion setting as it is (ie, guns are not that common outside of Alkenstar and maybe Numeria) and detail it little by little than try to change it completely.
It is the reason why the APs are supposed to happen and end in a way that keeps the status quo.
This is why I find all the complaining about Gunslingers quite baffling, especially when somebody says that "guns that target touch AC break suspension of disbelief" in a setting where CREATING ENDLESS WATER FROM NOTHING (not to mention all the 0° level spells) is something even the crappiest caster can pull off, and nobody ever mentions the enormous implications that this would have in a believable setting.
Why the double standard?
As I stated before, ignoring the "rules" of the world is the province of Magic and the supernatural. Guns are not supernatural.
My argument was that the 'touch AC' aspect of the new weapon creates a new niche for soldiers, and this niche allows mundane soldiers to easily target heavily armoured threats in a way that only magic users could do before.This is the very reason why I do not like the idea of having Gunslingers around (or only in a very rare, very specific context).
To me, the Med-Fan RPG is based on a clear dichotomy : people anchored in the material world (ie, non-casters) who get by their skill and physical and/or social abilities. These people do not get to ignore the laws of nature such as "Armor stops attacks".
Because, for this, for anything that ignores the laws of nature and physics, there is magic, which is the other side of the equation. Magic is what allows you to acquire supernatural power at a price (usually that of your martial and social abilities). And I put ki-using Monks here too.
A non-caster who can ignore the basic rules of the world without any supernatural aid just ruins the Med-Fan feeling for me.
And this is a perfect illustration of why Gunslingers should never ever become...I can see the discussion that happens afterwards:
Commanding Officer: What news of Sir Outdatus's campaign?
Messenger: Sir Outdatus fell in battle, melord. He was slain on a charge against the scouts palisades.
CO: Preposterous! Sir Outdatus was clad in Azlanti steel and bore Heartstone, the shield of his forefathers. What rival knight or cowardly wizard claimed him?
M: 'Twas a baseborn recruit that did the deed. The nameless private shot Sir Outdatus in the neck with one of those new pipe-rifles as he lead the charge. Left a hole clean through the steel.
CO: Impossible! You lie sir! Not Sir Outdatus, who emerged from the melee of orc hill without even a scratch when he fought 20 warrior orcs singlehandedly!
M: It seems that even the best armour cannot protect an officer from these devices. Melord would do well to learn from Sir Outdatus's death.
You know at first, this almost seems like a good argument, but may I take all of you to the magic of the mundane that exists outside that which is labeled "magic"
* Hitpoints - The people of D&D can take massive amounts of hits, but it's only that final hit that can take one down. "Alas," you say, "clearly hitpoints only represent the ability to avoid damage" but then what of magic? If one can avoid the punishing effects of being cut and stabbed, why can they not then also use hit points to avoid sleep and poison, and maybe also mind effects?
* Attacks of Opportunity - A level 1 fighter with 22 dexterity and combat reflexes can make six attacks of oppurtunity, for whatever reason this same fighter cannot attack the person in front of them more than once within that same round until they become more experienced.
* Monks - Ki is not considered to be magic, despite having clearly magical like effects (Speaking others languages, Resisting the penalties of age, an "unexplained inner power"...)
It's amazing how blindsided people can be to things that have been there for a while to criticize something that's new.
It is far easier for Paizo to keep the Golarion setting as it is (ie, guns are not that common outside of Alkenstar and maybe Numeria) and detail it little by little than try to change it completely.It is the reason why the APs are supposed to happen and end in a way that keeps the status quo.
Of course it's easier for Paizo, but that doesn't mean that you have to stick with the current situation as a GM. The world is yours to change, nobody forces you to preserve the status quo at all costs, especially when it makes so little sense. If PF ever gets a new edition, and the setting gets a new edition too, I expect major changes in the political, social and technological assets.
As I stated before, ignoring the "rules" of the world is the province of Magic and the supernatural. Guns are not supernatural.
In a game like Pathfinder? That's flat out incorrect. Just look at Ion Raven's list of things that aren't magical but still make no sense and break the rules of the world, just for the sake of the gameplay. Of course they are there for a reason, but can potentially break the suspension of disbelief much more than the newly added guns. To make another example, the bomb class feature of the Alchemist lets you use a limited numbers of bomb per day. I can understand the game design philosophy that is behind it, but does it make any sense within the world's "rules"? Bombs are a piece of technology, since they are crafted with chemical reagent: they are not magical, like acid flasks and alchemist's fire, they can be thrown at an enemy with pretty much the same rules involved. But UNLIKE acid flasks and alchemist's fire, you have a fixed amount a day, despite the fact that they are not spells in any way and that you could, if not for the arbitrary limits imposed by the class feature, spend the whole day crafting bombs like you would do for other consumables and ammunitions. And I've yet to see a thread like "Alchemist bombs are unrealistic, they ruin our idea of medieval fantasy".
OP is right in this sense: if guns could fire 4/day + your Wis modifier, you people wouldn't complain so much, despite the fact that this makes even less sense that "guns target touch AC".
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You know at first, this almost seems like a good argument, but may I take all of you to the magic of the mundane that exists outside that which is labeled "magic"
Mind you, I did not intend it as an argument in a debate. Just trying to explain why I feel Gunslingers should be very few and far between except in Alkenstar (an maybe Numeria)
* Hitpoints - The people of D&D can take massive amounts of hits, but it's only that final hit that can take one down. "Alas," you say, "clearly hitpoints only represent the ability to avoid damage" but then what of magic? If one can avoid the punishing effects of being cut and stabbed, why can they not then also use hit points to avoid sleep and poison, and maybe also mind effects?
Excuse me, are you using the rules of the game as an example of non-supernatural ways of breaking the rules of the setting ? Because, to me, the rules of the setting (what I call the laws of nature and physics) are based on the rules of the game.
* Attacks of Opportunity - A level 1 fighter with 22 dexterity and combat reflexes can make six attacks of oppurtunity, for whatever reason this same fighter cannot attack the person in front of them more than once within that same round until they become more experienced.
Same point as the previous one. What you are describing is perfectly within the laws of nature and physics in Golarion, even if it is not the case in our real world.
* Monks - Ki is not considered to be magic, despite having clearly magical like effects (Speaking others languages, Resisting the penalties of age, an "unexplained inner power"...)
My fault here : I used "magic" in my previous post as an encompassing word for any kind of supernatural ability, not in the very precise meaning used in the RAW. Still, I clearly included ki-using Monks there ;-)
It's amazing how blindsided people can be to things that have been there for a while to criticize something that's new.
This idea does have merit (except for the unnecessary inflamatory beginning of the sentence). Would I have a different opinion if Gunslingers had been around for a while ? Maybe, but I am not so sure as, to me, common Gunslingers give the game a feeling of Steampunk rather than Med-fan (or even early Renaissance-fan). And I do not see PFRPG (or DnD before) as a Steampunk game at all, nor do I wish it.
Of course it's easier for Paizo, but that doesn't mean that you have to stick with the current situation as a GM. The world is yours to change, nobody forces you to preserve the status quo at all costs, especially when it makes so little sense. If PF ever gets a new edition, and the setting gets a new edition too, I expect major changes in the political, social and technological assets.
It is far easier for Paizo to keep the Golarion setting as it is (ie, guns are not that common outside of Alkenstar and maybe Numeria) and detail it little by little than try to change it completely.It is the reason why the APs are supposed to happen and end in a way that keeps the status quo.
Why should they do this ? The setting is perfectly fine as is, with a place for everything, even Gunslingers (in a place called Alkenstar). I believe that any major technological evolution taking place throughout the setting would just ruin this atmosphere and take us down the Steampunk way.
I want to have knights in shining armor in my setting. If guns become commonplace, there is zero way that such archaic fighting technique survives (just as it didn't IRL). Mind you, I feel that if I have to choose between guns and knights in armor, the latter is far more representative of PFRPG/DnD.
BTW it is very easy to explain why the status quo endures : because there are powerful people in Golarion who support it. Maybe guns are not common outside Alkenstar because powerful magic-users just squash any attempt to use them on a big scale.
Of course, as a GM, you cal always rule otherwise and I have definitely no wish to change your point of view. I am just trying to explain mine.
As I stated before, ignoring the "rules" of the world is the province of Magic and the supernatural. Guns are not supernatural.In a game like Pathfinder? That's flat out incorrect. Just look at Ion Raven's list of things that aren't magical but still make no sense and break the rules of the world, just for the sake of the gameplay. Of course they are there for a reason, but can potentially break the suspension of disbelief much more than the newly added guns. To make another example, the bomb class feature of the Alchemist lets you use a limited numbers of bomb per day. I can understand the game design philosophy that is behind it, but does it make any sense within the world's "rules"? Bombs are a piece of technology, since they are crafted with chemical reagent: they are not magical, like acid flasks and alchemist's fire, they can be thrown at an enemy with pretty much the same rules involved. But UNLIKE acid flasks and alchemist's fire, you have a fixed amount a day, despite the fact that they are not spells in any way and that you could, if not for the arbitrary limits imposed by the class feature, spend the whole day crafting bombs like you would do for other consumables and ammunitions. And I've yet to see a thread like "Alchemist bombs are unrealistic, they ruin our idea of medieval fantasy".
Funny thing about the Alchemist's bombs is that they are not merely alchemical creations : "alchemists are adept at swiftly mixing various volatile chemicals and infusing them with their magical reserves to create powerful bombs that they can hurl at their enemies."
OP is right in this sense: if guns could fire 4/day + your Wis modifier, you people wouldn't complain so much, despite the fact that this makes even less sense that "guns target touch AC".
Maybe that is right because, to me at least, it would feel more like a supernatural effect and thus would not break the divide I see between the mundane and the supernatural in a game like PFRPG.
Excuse me, are you using the rules of the game as an example of non-supernatural ways of breaking the rules of the setting ? Because, to me, the rules of the setting (what I call the laws of nature and physics) are based on the rules of the game.
That's your problem right there. Mixing up the natural laws of a setting (that doesn't actually existing in the case of Golarion, since the setting is entirely fictional) with the rules of the game (that exist for the sake of gameplay, not for determining and describing what exactly happens in the setting) lead to this sort of conclusions:
Maybe that is right because, to me at least, it would feel more like a supernatural effect and thus would not break the divide I see between the mundane and the supernatural in a game like PFRPG.
Which to me doesn't make sense to me in the slightest, both from a immersion perspective (it's up to the setting to decide what's supernatural and what is not) and from a gameplay perspective (magic is Vancian and therefore has the bonuses and the limitations of being something you can do a limited times a day, technology is not and you can use it at will, provided you can afford it).
It's the same distinction that caused a large numbers players, me included, to be disgruntled by some of the core design choices of 4th edition: some abilities of many non caster classes like fighters and rogues, despite not being magical at all, have limited use per day, just like a spell. I'm glad that PF isn't going that direction (alchemyst's bombs aside, at least).
Ignoring the rules of the world is the province of the fantastic. And magic is not the only source of the fantastic.
Wish I thought of that quote.
Stuff about Golarian
Well for some of us, like me, Golarian is not the setting used. While Gunslinger might fit that setting, it doesn't necessarily fit every setting. I will be including guns in Kaidan, for those who want to use a gunslinger in their game, but preferentially, I won't be using them when I play in it.
Beyond my Japanese setting, I prefer dark ages settings - medieval is even too modern for my tastes. Guns just don't belong in a dark age setting.
boomslinger
I would go from loving what they bring in terms of thematics to outright hating them.