DaedalusV wrote: It's a pretty theoretic 9th level casting I know.
There's several reasons why I would want a lvl 1 spell to count as a higher level spell.
1) Save DCs
2) Globe of invulnerability
3) IIRC Dispel Magic
Dispel Magic is based on caster level, not spell level, and it caps at 10, it does you absolutely no good to use it in a higher level slot except for when you run out of 3rd level slots and you feel you need more of them.
Quote: I fully realize a spell cast with meta magic are cast at their actual level.
Heighten spell <--- This one RAISES a spell's effective level to whatever spell slot you want to use when it comes to spell DCs and other level dependent variables.
Correct, but it doesn't add up all of your metamagic feats, it only tacks onto them. For example, a heightened, quickened fireball prepared in an 8th level slot will still be considered a 4th level spell because heighten only raised it one level.
Quote: Spell Perfection <--- This one let's you apply one metamagic feat on a spell without raising it's level. But you can only take it once and only on one spell, so make sure it's a good one.
Quote: Preferred Spell <--- This one lets you spontaneously convert a prepared spell into your preferred spell (you get to apply metamagic on the fly)
So I convert whatever spell slot I want to use into a quickened (+0 effective spell level due to spell perfection) and Heightened version of my preferred/perfected spell.
You can do the same thing with Greater Spell Specialization and use it on any spell that has Spell Specialization on it, saving you a feat on Heighten Spell, considering that conjurers really don't rely on their DCs too much, it's the main attraction of being a conjurer really.
Quote: Now when I reply to you I realize that the tatoo and the other feat doesn't help that trick at all ;)
(I was hoping I could add another virtually "free" +3 metamagic into the mix, but htat's not really what they do)
Magical Lineage (trait) let's you lower the spell level by one when you apply metamagic to it, but only for the spell that you take it on, the feat Metamagic School Focus from 3.5 let you do that 3 times per day on any spell from a school that you have Spell Focus on.
@ Master Marshmellow. Very true on dispel magic, so that one's out.
so heighten spell is useful for increasing spell DC and getting through globes of invulnerability.
Concerning Greater spell specialization...
You need Spell focus, spell specialization and access to 5th level spells before being able to get greater spell specialization (I count 2 feats for prereq)
Versus Preferred spell
(Heighten spell and 5 ranks of spellcraft)
So you don't save anything at all, on the contrary, you need 1 MORE feat to qualify for greater specialization.
You could get preferred spell @ lvl 5 if you wanted to. The other option needs at least level 9.
Let's take your fireball example.
If you go with preferred + perfection
you could maximize it without modifying the slot level and then heighten it to what ever slot you want to use (thus getting around globes of invulnerability and other similar defenses)
Heighten is a metamagic feat (as opposed to the focus->specialization line) and thus it helps you towards qualifying for spell perfection. Your route doesn't.
(Magical lineage is a trait I'm truly regretting not taking, but my char got some flaveour from his traits instead)
Obviously, I'm not going for a preferred/pefected fireball, I want a spell that has more utility/scope than a godawful blast.
(Conjurers doesn't rely overly much on spell DCs very true. But there's quite a few lvl 1-2 conjuration spells that would benefit alot from higher DC/higher effective spell level)
Glitterdust is invalidated by lesser globe of invulnerability afaik.
Heighten to lvl 4 and it's not stopped anymore + it gained a +2 on it's DC.
Heighten spell is to me a very adaptable tool (YMMV)
Oh and on a side note. I'm not actually thinking about putting preferred/perfection on a conjuration spell (Snapdragon Fireworks is transmutation)
The move action to release a charge + a free standard action to cast is a godsend, the fact I'm going for a Dazing Rod makes increasing effective spell level a very viable strategy (Daze duration = effective spell lvl)
Well remember that you get a lot of mileage from Spell Specialization, and if you were going to take that anyway, then Greater Spell Specialization would be a better option for you imo.
Because Heighten doesn't really help you too much, I vote against taking it. If you aren't going to take Spell Specialization, then sure, it's a way to get some spontaneous casting going.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PSusac wrote: ...
Final note: I've never played a summoner, but given that your spell progression is cut by 1/3 I can't imagine any real benefit other than flavor. Basically I see it as a melee-support class that has a really good bag of tricks. I'm not sure though, I'd have to take a closer look. Still, what class abilities does a summoner have that is better than access to 9th level spells?
Full caster levels.
Spell access for many of the "power spells" at or sooner than regular wizards. Example, a summoner can cast Haste, a 3rd level spell, once he is 4th level.
Full access to Summon Monster series, based on Summoner level. You gain the Summon Monster spells, as an SLA, at the same level a wizard would obtain access to the spell.
Cast Summon Monster SLA as a standard action, with a 1 minute/level duration as a class feature.
Amazing sentient combat pet. Big boon to action economy.
So if you want to be a specialist summoner and gain abilities just from your class abilities, take a gander at this class. Yes it's a really good bag of tricks. A really, really, really good bag of tricks. Granted you won't have the versatility of a wizard, but you'll still be pretty darn good levels 1-20.
Overall though, I still favor wizards...
master_marshmallow wrote: Well remember that you get a lot of mileage from Spell Specialization, and if you were going to take that anyway, then Greater Spell Specialization would be a better option for you imo.
Because Heighten doesn't really help you too much, I vote against taking it. If you aren't going to take Spell Specialization, then sure, it's a way to get some spontaneous casting going.
I've confused things alot. I wasn't going for spell specialization ;)
heighten spell + preferred spell is integral for spontaneous casting of multiple rounds of ranged crowd control (heightened snapdragon fireworks and a (normal) metamagic rod of Dazing. Since the Daze effect duration comes from the metamagic Rod, I need a high level spell (Hence the heighten spell metamagic choice)
Snapdragon Fireworks: For CL number of rounds you can choose a 5ft square within long range. Anyone inside has to make a reflex saving throw or be dazzled for a round + 1d4 dmg.
Heighten Spell increases Save DC and the duration of Daze (from my rod)
Spell specialization doesn't achieve the effect I need.
Maybe I should choose a different spell for spell perfection?
That way I could memorize the other spell (flavoured with some metamagic) and add Quicken for free through Spell perfection...
My character is lvl 6 at the moment so my summons last 10 rounds already (caster lvl +1 (spell focus) +3 (conjurer))
I'm going for as much versatility as possible, but with a few signature moves and self-imposed limitations. I want to thank you for helping out though. All input is good input :D
(main limitation is my utter distaste of the evocation school, I want my companions to shine so I get left alone to do my crafting and mastering of all things arcane, that doesn't blow stuff up and cause bothersome stains and scorchmarks)
So you're building a conjuerer that focuses on Snapdragon Fireworks?
The point of Spell Specialization is that it, taken on a conjuration spell, grants you a minimum of 2 extra rounds of that conjuration (since most of them are rounds/level).
Because of that utility, with conjurers I like to go with Greater Spell Specialization because then I already have the prereqs.
One thing you need to look out for, if you Heighten a spell past 3rd level, you will need the more expensive metamagic rods to accomplish what you want to do.
master_marshmallow wrote: So you're building a conjuerer that focuses on Snapdragon Fireworks?
The point of Spell Specialization is that it, taken on a conjuration spell, grants you a minimum of 2 extra rounds of that conjuration (since most of them are rounds/level).
Because of that utility, with conjurers I like to go with Greater Spell Specialization because then I already have the prereqs.
One thing you need to look out for, if you Heighten a spell past 3rd level, you will need the more expensive metamagic rods to accomplish what you want to do.
Kind of. Snapdragon fireworks is a neat spell. taking perfection as well on it might be overkill. But since I plan on taking some metamagic feats, Spell Perfection on one of my spells won't hurt at all.
regarding the metamagic rod issue. I'm taking Craft rod @ 9th, wealth by level makes it possible for me to have a Normal strength Metamagic Rod +3 when I hit level 10. (27000GP is a bit less than 50% of WBL for a lvl 10 char)
I'm not sure why I would want more duration on my summons and battle spells since the party has most things down quite fast
DaedalusV wrote: master_marshmallow wrote: So you're building a conjuerer that focuses on Snapdragon Fireworks?
The point of Spell Specialization is that it, taken on a conjuration spell, grants you a minimum of 2 extra rounds of that conjuration (since most of them are rounds/level).
Because of that utility, with conjurers I like to go with Greater Spell Specialization because then I already have the prereqs.
One thing you need to look out for, if you Heighten a spell past 3rd level, you will need the more expensive metamagic rods to accomplish what you want to do.
Kind of. Snapdragon fireworks is a neat spell. taking perfection as well on it might be overkill. But since I plan on taking some metamagic feats, Spell Perfection on one of my spells won't hurt at all.
regarding the metamagic rod issue. I'm taking Craft rod @ 9th, wealth by level makes it possible for me to have a Normal strength Metamagic Rod +3 when I hit level 10. (27000GP is a bit less than 50% of WBL for a lvl 10 char)
I'm not sure why I would want more duration on my summons and battle spells since the party has most things down quite fast
BBEG fights that last more than 10 rounds may roll around, you never know, it's great for early levels, which is why I recommend it.
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@ DaedalusV I think it's better to take the extend feat than to use a MM rod of it because it is possible to "wear" dozens of spells into combat, and 1 hour/level spells are available at all levels of casting. It can also save you money. Consider a 13th level mage pre-casting:
Extended
contingency of greater invisibility
Overland Flight
Greater false life
non-detection
Mage armor
Unseen servant
Countless Eyes
Phantom Steed
Ablative Barrier
He also has several shrunk items on his person to use as backup weapons and/or familiar tricks.
Note that at this point he cast all these spells YESTERDAY, so he's still got a full spell payload for the big adventure. He's flying (at either fast or very fast speeds), non-detectable, he can turn invisible as a swift action, he's got a minor telekinesis, he can see in all directions. The first 5 points of damage he suffers is non-lethal, AFTER you calculate in the bonus 24 HP from greater false life.
He keeps a handful of spell slots open to memorize spells as needed, and if he doesn't use them by the end of the day, he uses them to memorize and re-cast the same buffs again at the end of the day, rolling the spell effects into yet another day of adventure.
This sort of capability is extremely versatile, and can (and should) be used in addition to a metamagic rod of extend spell. Use the rod to extend the 1 min/level spells that you cast during the dungeon crawl. Use the feat to wear spells all day, every day.
This is what makes wizards more powerful than sorcerers: The ability to exploit extend spell to bank magic from one day to the next, keeping both power and versatility.
@ Master Marshmallow
I have to agree with DaedalusV on the limited utility of longer summons spells. Unless you plan to have monsters last through more than one fight the extra levels seem wasted to me. This is possible though. Conjurers get a +1/2 level bonus to durations for summons, +2 levels = 3 more rounds, so at 10th level the spell lasts 18 rounds. If you push from one room to the next (and don’t stop to loot) this trick is useful. It’s situational, but it’s a situation that probably will come up fairly often.
The value of this ability depends on politics. Can you get the party to push on? Do you as a player have enough pull in your group to reliably make this happen? Do the other players recognize the value of this sort of tactic, or are they not really interested in tactics at all? Clearly your mileage may vary.
I think there is a tendency to view characters within a narrow conceptual framework. A conjurer is a wizard who specializes in conjurations, and that’s all cool, but in game terms, he’s really not that much different from a generalist mage or even another type of specialist. Taking conjuration for the teleportation school and the extra spell per level is quite viable even if you want to focus your actual casting on a different school. Consider a ray specialist who focuses on evocation, & necromancy as his offensive spells, but takes conjuration for the shift ability so he can move into position, fire off a ray and the shift back behind the tank for defense. This is clearly a very viable build, that would in NO way look like a “God” wizard or even a conjuration specialist. The great thing about conjuration as a school is that so many of the spells on the list are spells you wanted to take anyway.
PSusac wrote: @ Master Marshmallow
I have to agree with DaedalusV on the limited utility of longer summons spells. Unless you plan to have monsters last through more than one fight the extra levels seem wasted to me. This is possible though. Conjurers get a +1/2 level bonus to durations for summons, +2 levels = 3 more rounds, so at 10th level the spell lasts 18 rounds. If you push from one room to the next (and don’t stop to loot) this trick is useful. It’s situational, but it’s a situation that probably will come up fairly often.
The value of this ability depends on politics. Can you get the party to push on? Do you as a player have enough pull in your group to reliably make this happen? Do the other players recognize the value of this sort of tactic, or are they not really interested in tactics at all? Clearly your mileage may vary.
I think there is a tendency to view characters within a narrow conceptual framework. A conjurer is a wizard who specializes in conjurations, and that’s all cool, but in game terms, he’s really not that much different from a generalist mage or even another type of specialist. Taking conjuration for the teleportation school and the extra spell per level is quite viable even if you want to focus your actual casting on a different school. Consider a ray specialist who focuses on evocation, & necromancy as his offensive spells, but takes conjuration for the shift ability so he can move into position, fire off a ray and the shift back behind the tank for defense. This is clearly a very viable build, that would in NO way look like a “God” wizard or even a conjuration specialist. The great thing about conjuration as a school is that so many of the spells on the list are spells you wanted to take anyway.
One of the points of Spell Specialization is that you can switch your specialized spell at even levels, in any case it is better at earlier levels when your durations are limited.
So what would you recommend switching it to? The standard assumption I see in most builds is that this feat is used to apply to each of the highest level Summon Monster spells available. Is that how you would do it?
Obviously any spell of the appropriate school would work. Heck you could take spell focus for multiple schools and switch back and forth if you wanted.
I think this feat allows for some interesting things, but I'm not seeing the long-term use here. I'd love to see some ideas.
PSusac wrote: So what would you recommend switching it to? The standard assumption I see in most builds is that this feat is used to apply to each of the highest level Summon Monster spells available. Is that how you would do it?
Obviously any spell of the appropriate school would work. Heck you could take spell focus for multiple schools and switch back and forth if you wanted.
I think this feat allows for some interesting things, but I'm not seeing the long-term use here. I'd love to see some ideas.
Myself, because I would have Specialization taken at lower levels, when I get to about lvl 14 I would pick which spell I want to be my Spell Perfection choice, and from then on I would leave Specialization alone, and go with Greater Specialization to cast my perfected spell spontaneously.
The main argument here is going heighten into preferred for spontaneity's sake, which is fine. Myself, having already taken focus and specialization I wouldn't want to use up two feats on it, and would rather go the route of greater specialization.
The argument died as soon as he didn't want to take specialization in the first place.
The problem with greater specialization + spell perfection is that when you cast a spontaneous spell and add metamagic to it, you increase the casting time.
If you go the perferred spell route you don't have this problem. Also, if you were planning to take heighten anyway, it's only costing you one feat.
PSusac wrote: The problem with greater specialization + spell perfection is that when you cast a spontaneous spell and add metamagic to it, you increase the casting time.
If you go the perferred spell route you don't have this problem. Also, if you were planning to take heighten anyway, it's only costing you one feat.
Right, and the whole point of me saying specialization is good is because I didn't plan on taking heighten.
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PSusac wrote: @ DaedalusV I think it's better to take the extend feat than to use a MM rod of it because it is possible to "wear" dozens of spells into combat, and 1 hour/level spells are available at all levels of casting. It can also save you money. Consider a 13th level mage pre-casting:
Extended
contingency of greater invisibility
Overland Flight
Greater false life
non-detection
Mage armor
Unseen servant
Countless Eyes
Phantom Steed
Ablative Barrier
He also has several shrunk items on his person to use as backup weapons and/or familiar tricks.
Note that at this point he cast all these spells YESTERDAY, so he's still got a full spell payload for the big adventure. He's flying (at either fast or very fast speeds), non-detectable, he can turn invisible as a swift action, he's got a minor telekinesis, he can see in all directions. The first 5 points of damage he suffers is non-lethal, AFTER you calculate in the bonus 24 HP from greater false life.
He keeps a handful of spell slots open to memorize spells as needed, and if he doesn't use them by the end of the day, he uses them to memorize and re-cast the same buffs again at the end of the day, rolling the spell effects into yet another day of adventure.
This sort of capability is extremely versatile, and can (and should) be used in addition to a metamagic rod of extend spell. Use the rod to extend the 1 min/level spells that you cast during the dungeon crawl. Use the feat to wear spells all day, every day.
This is what makes wizards more powerful than sorcerers: The ability to exploit extend spell to bank magic from one day to the next, keeping both power and versatility.
Thanks for the advice/breakdown of how useful extend metamagic will be as a feat choice. I haven't had room for the feat yet, but I'm thinking I should make room for it between levels 11 and 15.
I'm taking 2 crafting feats before level 10, so I'm feat starved at early levels.
ATM my feat choices are:
lvl 1: Improved Initiative
lvl 3: Craft Wondrous Items
lvl 5: Spell Focus (conjuration)
lvl 5: Augment summoning (wizard bonus feat)
lvl 7: Heighten Spell
lvl 9: Craft Rod
lvl 10: opposition research (Necromancy) (wizard bonus feat)
lvl 11: Preferred Spell (Snapdragon Fireworks)
lvl 13: ??? (extend spell)
lvl 15: ??? (quicken spell)
lvl 15: ??? (spell perfection) (wizard bonus feat)
I've only hit level 8 on my nifty little elven conjurer, so I've got plenty of time to decide my late game feat progression.
I chose necromancy and evocation as opposed schools due to character concept but since the campaign has revolved around a hostile political takeover from a brood of vampires, my character sees his folly in neglecting the necromantic arts and will remedy that shortcoming asap.
I'm still very much interested in advice/discussion on feat choices @ level 13 and above.
You need another two metamagic feats before you hit level 15. I highly recommend Quicken Spell at 13 and then pick a spell of level 5 or lower for spell perfection so you can get a few one every round.
Extend is OK but you wont use it that much and Rods of Extend are fairly cheap. Personally I would grab Persistent Spell to force multiple saves.
I am not sure why you are using Preferred Spell (Snapdragon). On its own it isn't very good unless you combine it with Dazing Spell, do you have a Rod?
You have augment summoning. If you are summoning a lot then I would consider Superior Summoning to get extra bodies on the table.
Note you cannot take Spell Perfection with your wizard bonus feat as it is not an item creation or metamagic feat. Just swap it with whichever metamagic you do take.
andreww wrote: You need another two metamagic feats before you hit level 15. I highly recommend Quicken Spell at 13 and then pick a spell of level 5 or lower for spell perfection so you can get a few one every round.
Extend is OK but you wont use it that much and Rods of Extend are fairly cheap. Personally I would grab Persistent Spell to force multiple saves.
I am not sure why you are using Preferred Spell (Snapdragon). On its own it isn't very good unless you combine it with Dazing Spell, do you have a Rod?
You have augment summoning. If you are summoning a lot then I would consider Superior Summoning to get extra bodies on the table.
Note you cannot take Spell Perfection with your wizard bonus feat as it is not an item creation or metamagic feat. Just swap it with whichever metamagic you do take.
Yeah, I'm going to use a dazing rod on snapdragon.
I had persistent instead of extend originally and didn't want to take extend spell. An above poster gave good reasoning towards having extend as a metamagic feat. I'm still undecided.
Quicken spell is a given imo. Having a quickened haste or other similar high value buff is a great advantage.
heighten + quicken + one more (persistent or extend) gives access to spell perfection.
If I want spell perfection I don't have room for superior summoning until I hit 17, so that's really late.
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DaedalusV wrote: I had persistent instead of extend originally and didn't want to take extend spell. An above poster gave good reasoning towards having extend as a metamagic feat. I'm still undecided.
Extend is a decent utility feat but Persistent will let you end encounters. Lets take a look at some of the spells mentioned above:
Extended Spells
Contingency of greater invisibility : This lasts 1 day/level already so extend is pretty unnecessary.
Mage Armour and Unseen Servant: As level 1 spells you could just memorise them more than once or buy some level 1 pearls of power at 1000gp each.
Phantom Steed: This becomes largely superfluous as soon as you gain access to Overland Flight.
Greater False Life: Its a decent spell but frankly as a Wizard HP are not your primary defence.
Non-detection: Has a 50gp material component so you aren't likely to be casting it every day or even every other day.
Countless Eyes: You cannot be flanked but you shouldn't be in melee in any event.
Ablative Barrier: This has a pretty minor effect and once again you shouldn't be getting hit. If you are in reach of a full attack then this wont be saving you. Emergency Force Sphere is a much better choice for keeping you alive.
Now there are some better spells which this list doesn't cover. In particular Ant Haul and Life Bubble are great long duration buff spells. However both also last 2 hours/level so probably don't need extend. Also Darkvision at 1 hour/level is really useful.
Finally be aware that you can still craft a rod even if you do not have the feat, you just take an extra 5 to the DC. I think you would be better off with a normal Rod of Extend Spell to cover Darkvision, Overland Flight and Life Bubble. The level 1 spells can be memorised additional times or covered with Pearl of Power or a lesser Rod.
andreww wrote: DaedalusV wrote: I had persistent instead of extend originally and didn't want to take extend spell. An above poster gave good reasoning towards having extend as a metamagic feat. I'm still undecided.
Extend is a decent utility feat but Persistent will let you end encounters. Lets take a look at some of the spells mentioned above:
Extended Spells
Contingency of greater invisibility : This lasts 1 day/level already so extend is pretty unnecessary.
Mage Armour and Unseen Servant: As level 1 spells you could just memorise them more than once or buy some level 1 pearls of power at 1000gp each.
Phantom Steed: This becomes largely superfluous as soon as you gain access to Overland Flight.
Greater False Life: Its a decent spell but frankly as a Wizard HP are not your primary defence.
Non-detection: Has a 50gp material component so you aren't likely to be casting it every day or even every other day.
Countless Eyes: You cannot be flanked but you shouldn't be in melee in any event.
Ablative Barrier: This has a pretty minor effect and once again you shouldn't be getting hit. If you are in reach of a full attack then this wont be saving you. Emergency Force Sphere is a much better choice for keeping you alive.
Now there are some better spells which this list doesn't cover. In particular Ant Haul and Life Bubble are great long duration buff spells. However both also last 2 hours/level so probably don't need extend. Also Darkvision at 1 hour/level is really useful.
Finally be aware that you can still craft a rod even if you do not have the feat, you just take an extra 5 to the DC. I think you would be better off with a normal Rod of Extend Spell to cover Darkvision, Overland Flight and Life Bubble. The level 1 spells can be memorised additional times or covered with Pearl of Power or a lesser Rod. All very good points (do be aware that the list of buff spells you're referencing isn't mine.)
I'm aware that I don't need the metamagic feat to craft a rod (I'm planning to take advantage of that quite alot)
Persistent spell is very much a valid choice. There's alot of offense in it. Although my character concept isn't about singlehandedly ending encounters with SoS/SoD.
Extend spell is more versatile, I can use it both offensively and defensively.
The group I'm playing with:
1) A blastercaster druid (Fur subdomain + boon companion for full power wolf AC)
2) Dwarven greatsword fighter (my trusty meatshield)
3) Halfling Ninja (blindfighting poisonuser with crystalline katana)
4) Elven Bard of awesomeness (buffing and ranged feinting)
So my main focus is battlefield control, summons and debuffs/buffs.
Persistent spell may be the best choice.
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